Black vs Pyrodex vs Triple Se7en?

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I'm sitting here reading all these arguments on the 'net about real black powder vs subs. So I went and looked at the actual ingredients, and here's what I found:

Black powder is charcoal, sulfur, and potassium nitrate (but we knew that).

Pyrodex is charcoal, sulfur, sodium nitrate, and potassium nitrate, with potassium perchlorate added.

Triple Se7en is charcoal, potassium nitrate, and potassium perchlorate (Pyrodex without the sulfur).

So it's basically the same stuff. Pyrodex contains an additional oxidizer, as does Triple Se7en, and the latter doesn't have sulfur. All contain a bit of graphite, likely to help flow, as most smokeless powders meant for reloading have it also.

Can't find the MSDS on Shockey's Gold. I wonder if they're embarrassed to put it out there? It is extremely inconsistent and pretty good at making noise, but that's about it. Regardless, we know it's based on ascorbic acid, and probably has an oxidizer and binder in there too. But we'll leave it out of this because it's just not much good.

So why the arguments? The Big 3 - Black, Pyrodex, and Triple Se7en powders - all share most of the same ingredients. Additionally, "real" black powder has historically contained less than the optimum amount of oxidizer at times (early pioneers would often urinate on it and let it dry as a chemical in urine is an oxidizer - they didn't know why it worked, but it did). Too, substitutions were made, for example, sodium nitrate would be used in place of potassium nitrate at times when the latter was scarce.

True black has been more than one thing with more than one mixture - and in my mind, Pyrodex, if not Triple Se7en, would be close enough to the various mixtures to qualify as "true black" at one point or another in history.

And I do have one related question as well: Potassium chlorate is a salt. IIRC, it's the same stuff given off by "corrosive" primers when they're fired. It's the salts which attract moisture and induce oxidization in barrels.

How are these barrels safe? Doesn't seem they would be... unless the charcoal absorbs the moisture and holds it there.

So the two questions are these:

Why the arguments

and

how does a charged barrel not rust?

Thanks,

Josh

[roverboy]

Interesting data there Josh. About a loaded barrel not rusting. I think its because the barrel should be clean and greased a little and rust needs oxygen. I imagine it can't get oxygen to oxidize.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I`ve pulled loads that have sat in Ml for a year or more with both just lead bullets and saboted ones. Charges have been both pellets and bulk powders including black powder. Since the firearms hadn`t been fired there was no rust in the barrel, even where the compressed charge sat. I can only think that the lack of oxygen and the firing sequence that causes a chemical reaction and of course the absense of moisture prevented barrel rust. Others probably will argue my thinking on this, but hey I`m only a plumber -not a chemist.Robert

[Josh Smith]

Thank you for the information.

I'm going to try to get my hands on true black, but for now I had to go with Pyrodex just to get away from that Shockey's Gold stuff that came with the muzzleloader.

I did see I made a typo: Pyrodex contains POTASSIUM NITRATE as well; I put sodium nitrate.

I was thinking ahead to a future paragraph where I would address the sodium nitrate thing in old black.

Sorry for the confusion.

Thank you, again, for the info!

Josh

[daddywpb]

I saw Tony Knight at a seminar at the local Bass Pro Shop and posed the question of leaving the rifle loaded to him. His answer was that the powder is not corrosive until it burns. i have left inlines loaded with Pyrodex pellets and caplocks loaded with Goex FFg for the entire season with no problems. i don't understand it, but Tony Knight should know. He's a real nice guy by the way. He stayed after the seminar untill all questions were answered. I brought an old Knight catalog with me and he signed it.

[mooman76]

I was told it was the chemical reaction that causes it. J. Smith, if you post the area you are in, maybe someone can point you to a place that sells the real stuff. I'm getting back to the real stuff(keeping it real) now that I found a place that sells it but used Pyrodex for years and it worked good for me.

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

Just got back in from shooting Pyrodex and cleaning the rifle just like I do my C&R firearms.

First, this is how I cleaned it:

1. Soapy water. I used to pour boiling water down the barrel, but I found that this does the trick just as well - or perhaps a bit better - if the patches are wrapped around a bronze brush and totally saturated. I did this two or three times.

2. Rinsed it out in the same manner, using regular hot water.

3. Ran some dry patches down the bore to dry it out, and did the same with the nipple and drum.

4. Applied lanolin. This has become a favorite of mine for bore conditioning, water repelling, and getting past rust.

5. Ran a dry patch down the barrel to get rid of the excess lanolin.

I've never had a firearm thus treated rust.

Observations:

First, this rifle LOVES Pyrodex and round balls. I was shooting at 30 yards or so working up loads for squirrel. It shot pretty much at the same place with 30gns to 90gns (the highest I tried) at that range. Twenty grains dropped the ball quickly, but was still good to 30yds.

Offhand groups were pretty much one hole with the same charge. Hate to say it, but I shoot this rifle more instinctively and just better from a non-rested standing position than any of my modern rifles. I will have to shoot for 50yd groups again - I bet they come in near 1/2".

I LOVE the smell of Pyrodex - which I'm guessing is real similar to the smell of true black.

I did have a spent cap land on my right hand - it's a downside of being a lefty shooting a righty lock I guess - and it seared the skin pretty good. Probably will scar. I'll wear it with pride :D

I have six balls left. A gent from another board is sending me a .490" T/C round ball mould. That will be real nice to have as I cast for my .45acp and do have some pure lead ingots. Got to thinking that it would take me about an hour to shoot up those remaining six balls though - while I could do 200 round of aimed .22LR with my "squirrel sniper" heavy barreled Savage MkII in about the same time.

I don't care about price per shot; if I shoot right, I won't be able to use ammo up near as fast!

The Pyrodex just makes me hungry to try true black. If this rifle can shoot this much better with Pyrodex than with that Shockey's Gold stuff, I wonder if it would do even better with true FFg..?

Hmmm...

Josh

[mooman76]

The old timers said when cleaning you don't start with hot water, you use cold or warm water first and finish up with hot. I have never heard much good about shocky's Gold in fact I'm suprised they still can market it. Have never tried it myself but I have already heard enough bad. I have never seen much difference between true black and pyrodex as far as shooting but that's me and my guns. Every gun is different and load methods probably have some to do with it. Some sware by black and some say Pyrodex shoots better. To each his own. You can also use WW metal for RBs with no problem. Might load a little harder if you run a real tight patch but they shoot basically the same. I have allot of soft lead now so that's what I use but I didn't use to so I used WWs and they did just fine. Save the soft for conicals.

[Josh Smith]

Hi Mooman,

I can get just about as much Linotype as I want. Since it's in demand for hard cast, I figure I can trade for pure.

Just have to wait for one of these medical places where I've interviewed to stop messing around and hire me so I can buy it! :D

Thanks,

Josh

[izzyjoe]

i was wanting to try some blackpowder, but i can't seem to find it locally. i talked to a fellow at a sportin' goods store, he said there was to many legality's to keep it in stock. and nobody wanted it, or they can't sell enough of it. oh' well guess i'll stick to pyrodex rs. somebody said the old timers used to urinate on blackpowder, whould'nt that ruin the powder? i was always told to keep your powder dry!!

[mooman76]

When they mix BP it is wet and then they dry it. I had never heard they used to urinate on it but I guess as long as they dried it, it should be fine. Maybe that's why it smells so bad when fired. Ha, Ha!

[Josh Smith]

Old black powder sometimes lacked enough oxidizer to be efficient.

Urine contains chemicals which, when dry, are oxidizers. Don't remember for sure what it's called right now, but the South would collect the contents of chamber pots to make gunpowder. Or so I've heard. You can see this form if you dip a string in urine. It will form crystals.

Anyway, people found that when they urinated on the under-oxidized black powder and dried it, it became more powerful.

Or so the story goes.

There's some debate as to whether this really happened. I've read that it was supposed to be done when your powder store got wet anyway, before you dried it. But I dunno. It would work so I suppose somebody, sometime, somewhere, must have tried it.

Josh

[WildShot]

Mail order your black if you can't find locally:

http://powderinc.com/
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501

[lawhetzel]

The oxidizing ingredient in black powder is saltpeter (that's potassium nitrate). It can be made by processing urine (either animal or human). I have read about the process, but forget the details, but it is available on the internet if you google it. It is/was often mined where there are old deposits of bat or bird droppings which are high in urea which is a nitrogen compound that is used as a fertilizer and is the main ingredient in many homemade explosives.
I think that the real problem with the compounds that are produced in the combustion of black powder and some of the substitutes is that not only are they corrosive, but they are hygroscopic -- that is they attract moisture from the air which causes rusting. Together they can eat up the steel in a gun barrel.

[northmn]

The Potassium percholate in Pyrodex is what chemists claim makes it more corrosive than BP. As it forms potassium chloride on ignition. Since barrel shave to be cleaned anyway, I am going to avoid that arguement. The biggest issues between the three for me is as follows:

Cost: The subs (Pyrodex and 777) cost more than BP as I can get BP through the mail for under $20 a can including Hazmat and postage. Bought locally on stores, the subs cost closer to $25-30. I buy enough so that availibility is not an issue.
Performance: As I shoot flintlocks, the subs do not work. The sub manufacturers even say so. You have to duplex with real BP. As a priming charge they would really be pathetic. In my 45-70, if I am going to shoot black powder I want black powder, otherwise I shoot smokeless. My 50 percussion does not work well with the subs and BP is far more accurate.
Black powder is the real thing so why not use it if you want to use historical firearms?

As to keeping loads in the bore. I personally think that GGG Granddad may have used patch lube just for that purpose, as you grease the bore when you seat a patched round ball (probably do today with a greased slug) I also think that he may have cleaned the bore after a shot before reloading. freshing barrels was a very common source of income for early gunsmiths.

Northmn

[cajun shooter]

You need to do more reading past the ingredients used. They are no where near the real BP.The process is quite different. They will rust your gun in some area's overnight if left uncleaned. Real BP can go from days to weeks with out cleaning after being fired. In cartridge rifles they can't come close to the same accuracy. AS has been stated they will not burn in some firearms and BP will work in them all. There is no excuse for not at least trying real BP because it can be delivered to your door. Real BP will have a shelf life of hundreds of years if not thousands. All the subs start going bad as soon as the top seal is broken. 777 can go to having only half power in as little as 6 months.