Roundball Woes...

[flyingstick]

Ok, I could use some more help on this one. I had an older CVA 50 cal. Hawken given to me in pretty good shape, 1:48 twist and my roundballs are just not shooting to their potential (I think). I've slugged the barrel at .504 across the lands and .513 to the grooves. I'm shooting a .490 rb with .020 patching material. I've tried both fffg and ffg from 40 to 120 grains of powder. I can hit the same hole at 25 yards with 60 grs. but at 100 yards I'm lucky to be on a 2' x 2' piece of poster board with any load. So the million dollar question is what's hapening to the ball between 25 and 100 yards??

[10 ga]

swaged or cast RBs? What is the crown like? What are you patching with? Lube? BP or sub, if you are using the Pioneer or Shockeys powder that's a problem. Swabing every how many shots? Really need more info on loading and shooting to answer. You are shooting off a bench and bags, right? Where are the hits at 50 yds? Are you bouncing the rod on the ball? What kind of shape is the bore in? Need lots more info and details to trouble shoot from here but I'm sure a bunch of us will try to help. 10

[waksupi]

Try weighing your balls, and be sure you don't have any voids in them. We'll take this one thing at a time, and figure it out.

[docone31]

Since, you do not have .495 balls, have you tried pillow ticking?
How does the ball enter the barrel, tight, or loose.
In other words, do you need to smack it with your ball starter?
We will get you there.
I had some really tough times also.

[dualsport]

Retrieve your patches after a shot or two. How do they look? Pretty good shape? Holes burnt thru, shredded? The patch will talk to you, it might say 'this combo is too loose'. Maybe try a .495 ball. In my experience(I have a nice old CVA .50 Mountain Rifle) an accurate load is a little hard to start down the barrel.

[flyingstick]

Thanks for the quick reply's. I am shooting off the bench, using black powder. I do not bounce the rod. The balls are cast. I am lubing with bore butter and the retrieved patches look good, no burn throughs, the ball is tight enough I have to use a ball starter but not to tight to go down, I swab between every shot. The ends of the retrieved patches look shredded dualsport but no more than any of my other balls. Yes, dacone I do have to smack it to get it started. 10 ga, I haven't tried 50 yet. I really do appreciate the help folks.
Don

[docone31]

If you can get your hands on some R.E.A.L. castings, they do fire well.
It might just be simply, not broken in enough.
You are lucky. I have never found a patch! The range I shoot at is flat, and sand. I have never found a single patch.
With your twist, it should fire well.
Keep plugging along.
You will find it.

[waksupi]

Doc, if you have never found a patch, you are probably blowing them to shreds. I find nearly every one of mine, and I'm not exactly in bare ground.

[mooman76]

Try dieing them orange first. Should find the patches then.

[dualsport]

Dang, it sounds like it should shoot. Everything sounds right to me. All I can think of is the 1/48" twist isn't cutting the mustard for the prb. Doc's on the right track, those Lee REAL slugs work pretty good in everything I've tried them in.

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

First, don't use over 100gns in that rifle. It's not safe.

I have a CVA sidelock as well, 1:48 twist. It will do very well at 50 yards and under.

Much over that, and, well, a round lead ball has a BC of right around .06 to .08 depending upon speed and such. When it exits mach, it will go flying all over the place. Same deal as with a .22LR.

At least that's what I figure.

CVA, .50 cal, .490" balls patched with pillow ticking (.015" IIRC) and lubed with lanolin.

Josh

[Boz330]

I'm with the REAL guys. That is a pretty fast twist and pretty shallow rifling for a RB.

Bob

[fishhawk]

you know what? the 2 CVA guns i have won't shoot fer carp using borebutter as a patch lube. what they do like is crisco as patch lube. now also i have one gun with a green mountain barrel that won't shoot fer carp with crisco but works with borebutter on the patch. could just need a differnt patch lube! steve k

[10 ga]

Always put the sprue cut up to be the nose of the ball when you load. If the sprue is in different places with each shot it can act like stitches on a baseball and cause the bullet to curve after a certain distance. You might try some REAL boolits or with hunting season close and need something PDQ try some commercial "belted" bullets. I'd start with something in the 240-260 gr. range and go up if they arn't accurate. 70 gr powder should be good for trials. You can always go down to "boolit excange", in swappin/sellin forum, and find someone with some REAL or mini boolits to sell/trade. I'm sure you' ll get more answers and one of them will work. Luck to ya, 10

[Maven]

flyingstick, A few sugggestions: (1) Try a different lube. E.g., for testing & target work, saliva works very well. (2) Wipe the bore with a dry patch after each shot and again after you seat the RB (but before you cap the rifle!). (3) Reduce the powder charge to 70grs. FFFg @ 100 yds. and 50-60grs. @ 50. (4) If none of these ideas works, try the .495" RB with your .020" patch v. a .016" patch. Weighing the RB's is also an excellent suggestion. Btw, those rifles had a reputation for being quite accurate, not bench rest accurate to be sure, but quite impressive nonetheless.

[eljefe]

I would also try not swabbing between shots. My 54 caliber flinter shoots better after a shot or two. I never swab until it is fouled so bad that I can't load.

[gnoahhh]

It's gotta be the rate of twist. Up close (under 50 yds. or so) the velocity is sufficient to give stabilization, after that, as velocity drops, the spin is too much and the ball will start to wander. 1-48" is a compromise- too fast for optimal round ball shooting, a little slower than optimum for conicals. By jockeying patch/lube/ball diameter/powder charge combos you should get decent hunting accuracy out to 100 meters or so. Beyond that I would be shooting conicals anyway, unless it's a large ball with a lot of mass to make up for the tremendous loss in velocity "way out there." A round ball is a poor ballistic shape and sheds velocity at an alarming rate.

That said, I prefer RB's over conicals and select my barrels accordingly- 1-66" or 1-72". I don't take long shots, and all is right with the world.

[dualsport]

Many many moons ago I shot in muzzleloader matches with the big boys using my humble .50CVA Mountain Rifle. The competition had hand built heavies. I did get a 3rd a time or two with prb. It's been a while, but if memory serves it'll keep 'em in the black at 100. 66" twist, but my point is CVA made some shooters, especially for the money. The REAL bullet works in it too.

[R.M.]

A 1:48 should shoot balls just fine. I'd reduce the load to 50 grains and work up 5 grains at a time till you find it gets better or worse. I'd try different lubes, it does make a difference. Try a felt wad over the powder or a filler.
Something you're doing is just not to the liking of that gun. All my CVAs are pretty good shooters. Keep at it, it'll get better.

[northmn]

If the lube is bad you can tell it when you reload as you will get a very hard area or tight spot. Mostly going to a different ball size like 495 is fine tuning. Your load should shoot adequately. A 1-48 inch twist with a patched roundball should be able to shoot rings around any slugs. Try it without swabbing as that, if done wrong can mess things up. Bore Butter works OK for me. By the way I have a "smooth rifle", a smooth bore with sights that will group into 4 inches at 75 yards.

Northmn

[Hanshi]

A 1-48" twist is not really all that fast for prb. Certainly don't want to go much faster than that. As has been suggested, experiment with lube/patch thickness and starting at 50 grains, go up in 5 grain increments shooting 5 shot groups with each. Most of all use an op wad! Felt, leather even a wad of toilet paper can work wonders. I use the toilet paper at the range and use felt wads in the woods.

[mooman76]

With the 1-48 twist you can't push your RBs as hard as in other guns with a slower twist you keep away from top end and at 100y it will drop quite abit on a 2' target so you might try adjusting your aim. I'd try some other lubes also. I was never impressed with bore butter. Not that it's all that bad but not that great either and I didn't have the accuracy I liked. Try spit patch.

[Flinchrock]

With the bore dimensions you posted, I would definitly be using a .495 ball, possibly even a .500! Dead soft lead, pillow ticking. ffg gives a "gentler" pressure curve, which can help with accuracy. Goex or Swiss.
Try 50gr to 50 yds, 80gr to 100 or hunting, ballistol and water 1-5 for range, mink oil for hunting. Overpowder card ain't a bad idea either!

[northmn]

I still cannot figure why you cannot hit a 2' X 2' paper. the suggestions are as I mentioned, refinements. your combination may not shoot really well, but still should be more accurate than that. My percussion 50 would really scatter like that with Pyrodex RS, but with BP would group very well at 100 yards. That was using 490 RB as I was too lazy to cast the 495's. Other things that I can think of. Are you shooting in a heavy cross wind? Round ball can really drift in winds at 100 yards. Wet swabbing may be doing funny things to your ignition. One individual had this problem and found out he had a loose sight. 50-70 grains of 3f ought to shoot pretty fair out of your combination if the barrel is in halfway decent shape and the patches, as you stated, are maintaining integrity.

Northmn

[Josh Smith]

Flyingstick,

Something I've not seen mentioned is that you might get somebody else to shoot it.

Josh

[waksupi]

:killingpc
Flyingstick,

Something I've not seen mentioned is that you might get somebody else to shoot it.

Josh

Not a bad idea. Some rifles are very finicky as to bench technique.

[mooman76]

Consistancy is a key factor in reloading and BP is no exception and in some ways less forgiving. Need to load the same each time and pact the powder the same each load also.
You were having troubles with Lee REALs in another gun at 100y also. Maybe there is somthing wrong with the way you are loading. Might see if you can find someone else that shoots BP in your area to help you out. Either that or you have the worst luck with guns.

[flyingstick]

Yea, Mooman I do:) I'm gonna take her out again Tuesday and try the different lubes though I'm real doubtful about it I'll give it a try. I just got back from a fox squirell hunt with my .40 flint and it's a tack driver. I've squirell hunted with it for years but we don't have fox squirrels here, and if they were, theyr'e illegal to shoot in florida. I have another .50 in line that shoots sabots wonderfully and a 58 Navy Arms with a 1:66 twist that shoots rb great so it's not like I don't have something to hunt with but the Hawken is super lite and handy. I just wish they all shot as good as my flint. Thanks for you folks help. I'll let you know how it goes at the range Tuesday.
Thanks,
Don

[mooman76]

Well you certainly have the experience to know how to load so having said that I am at pretty much a loss. The only things left I can think of are either that gun is well worn and maybe is shooting at it's ptential or what some loaders will do when their gun starts to show signs of excesive wear is to move up to a larger ball. I have herd sometimes that will make it shoot almost like new again.

[Maven]

flyingstick, Is there a chance that either the front sight is loose in its dovetail or the windage adjustment, if one exists, on the rear sight is loose as well?

[flyingstick]

Thanks maven, but no. I wish they were but when I got the gun I locktightened them in. I just checked again to be sure. I'm going to try different lubes and get some 395 rbs and try. If you think of something else let me know,
Thanks again,
Don

[Maven]

Don, Having gone through the loose sight business myself, I thought it may have been the case with your rifle as well. However, after reading your reply, and rereading your 1st post, I came up with other ideas/questions. To wit, are the keys (wedges) tight in their staples/tenons (I think that's what they're called)? I.e., could the stock have dried out enough to cause a loose fit; or conversely, swelled enough to put uneven pressure on the bbl.? Lastly, does the bbl. fit the hooked breech tightly? Or rather, are you able to move the bbl. a tad when it is in the hooked breech with the keys in place? Btw, a ring of shim brass soldered in place on the staples (I forget whether your gun has 1 or 2 keys) will tighten things up if needed (easy to do). The hooked breech can be shimmed as well if needed, but I'm not sure whether shim brass would work. Teflon tape, the kind for gas fittings (yellow or pink container), may be an expedient worth considering.

[405]

I put a couple of those kits together back in the 70s. If I recall CVA was trying to put out a ML that "looked" something like a real Hawken. To me, they seemed a little "rough around the edges" and the bores were questionable. I do not know for sure but have heard that CVA improved the bore/barrel quality after those first runs- who knows though?

One thing is to have someone else shoot it. That was a good idea that was posted. Another thing is to try to "feel" for a rough bore with a tight fitting patch over a jag. I remember the "older" CVAs that I built had really rough bores. If it is rough then you might try judicious use of some 330 grit lapping compound on the patch/RB combo for firelapping. Clean between shots so you can feel for improvement. May take a few shots to smooth out a rough bore.

The last thought and one not mentioned is a crooked barrel. It doesn't take much but the slightest crook or bend will absolutely ruin accuracy.... NO MATTER the load or shooting technique. I know from experience!

In the end it may be one thing or any number of things but agree with the posts that suggest 2ft plus groups at 100 yds indicate sumpin' ain't right. Even a rough bore should shoot RBs into way less than 2ft!

[mooman76]

CVA as well as Traditions used to import their gun from another manufacturer in Spain(even had the same part numbers). They now make their own or have them made here in the US. Better quality. If the wedge pins are loose all you need to do is lay the pin on something hard and flat and tap it with a hammer hard enough to bend it a little.

[TCLouis]

I would first go to 0.495" ball and see what that did.

What about patching and patch lube, whatcha using?

[DIRT Farmer]

Just as a thought, drop the charge down to 30-35 grains. From what you have posted I cant really think of anything else. You might try the old reliable lubes, Spit and also try tallow.I have had a few rifles over the years that shot well with beef or deer tallow, even rough bores.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
It sure could be a loose fit combination.... At .513 a .490 + .20 patch sounds like a loose fit to me.
And the shallow rifling.. forget that old tale. My Zouave has very shallow rifling but a TIGHT fitting patched RB will shoot cloverleafes at 50 yards with 85 grains 2F.
Muzzleloaders need a good grip on things or the ball will not get a spin to it.

[DIRT Farmer]

Good point missionary, in the small bores I generaly yse a bore size ball and 20 thousands patching. From the posted sizesI would use at least a .50 ball

[flyingstick]

I didn't get a chance to shoot it yesterday, I'm gonna pick up some bigger balls first and carry them with me to the range. The wedge and breech hook are very tight though. I'm just wondering, How much wind does it take to effect rb accuracy when your shooting out to a hundred yards?

[qajaq59]

From my very limited experience with the RBs, I'd say it doesn't take much wind to move them around.

[Boz330]

How much wind it would take I don't know but a 50 cal round ball is bleeding energy and velocity rapidly at that distance. If you have one check the Lyman BP loading manual. It has just about any combination that you can think of for the popular BP calibers with the numbers. IMHO the 50 is getting marginal for deer much past a 100yd, unless shot placement is perfect.

Bob

[roverboy]

Boz330, I agree I don't like to take a shot with a roundball in my .50 past about 50 yards. I get good accuracy but prefer the conicals for hunting.

[qajaq59]

Boz330, I agree I don't like to take a shot with a roundball in my .50 past about 50 yards. I get good accuracy but prefer the conicals for hunting.

I'm the same way. The RBs are fun for targets, but my 1/48 twist is really accurate now with the conicals at 100 yards, so I'll hunt with that.

[DIRT Farmer]

All I hunt with are round balls, Almost all of my shots on deer have been under 60 yards, although I have killed ground hobs at close to 200 yds and have had full penetration and quick kills. A 50 cal RB will still splater on a 200 yard steel target.

[flyingstick]

She Shoots!! Ok, I finally took the little Hawken to the range and started working up loads. I would have never figured this one out without you folks help. First you were right she absolutely hates bore butter. Will not shoot with any combination using bore butter, I will never be able to explain this one. Anyway, with a .008 patch with spit and 90 gr. of FFg she shot perfect. But when I would lube with crisco/beeswax it opened up. The wife quilts so I took my micrometer among the quilting scraps and came up with some tightly woven Civil war period material ranging from .008-.013. The gun actually shot very well with the .008 and spit using Hanshi's TP idea, but there again opened up using C/Bwax. The nice thing about the .008 patch is you can just push it down with your thumb (no short starter) but....I'm working up a hunting load so I need a lube that will stay in the barrel a couple of days. So I wound up moving up to some beautiful flower patterned patch material @ .011 thick with the C/Bwax and man will it shoot. I never knew lube could make so much of a difference. Thanks for your expertise and help.
Don

[qajaq59]

I never knew lube could make so much of a difference. If I haven't learned anything else in the past few months, I've definitely figured out that "every" nit picking detail seems to make a difference in black powder rifles. LOL But they sure are lots of fun.

[flyingstick]

Yes Sir! they are lots of fun!!

[Grapeshot]

Ok, I could use some more help on this one. I had an older CVA 50 cal. Hawken given to me in pretty good shape, 1:48 twist and my roundballs are just not shooting to their potential (I think). I've slugged the barrel at .504 across the lands and .513 to the grooves. I'm shooting a .490 rb with .020 patching material. I've tried both fffg and ffg from 40 to 120 grains of powder. I can hit the same hole at 25 yards with 60 grs. but at 100 yards I'm lucky to be on a 2' x 2' piece of poster board with any load. So the million dollar question is what's hapening to the ball between 25 and 100 yards??

That 1:48 twist is a bit of a comprimize for modern muzzle-loaders. I had a pair of Thompson Center Hawkens, one in .45 the other on .50 caliber. They shot RB good up to fifty yards, after that it was a **** shoot. OTOH, they both shot the maxi-ball and minnies very well out to 150 yards and that was pushing it with 70 plus grains of 2Fg. YMMV.

If you can find them, T/C used to sell packs of Maxi-balls in .50 caliber, I'd get a pack of them and see how they perform in your Hawken.

[Tazman1602]

Try weighing your balls, and be sure you don't have any voids in them. We'll take this one thing at a time, and figure it out.

HAVE YOU BEEN TALKING TO MY WIFE?????????????????

I'm sorry Wak, I could NOT resist..............

Art

[mooman76]

Great deal. Glad we could help. I tink most all of us learned from it too. I knew lube could make a difference but also didn't think it would make that much difference. I'm taking a friend from work out this weekend to show him the basics. He's never shot ML before and wants to learn. Funny thing. Like I said earlier I have tried flannel patching and it isn't that tight or strong either but shoots fairly well and loads easy. Also on a side note when I use bore butter may patches get burned out. My accuracy isn't as good but not bad either.

[10 ga]

Congratulations on finding the combo. My RB guns arn't so choicy about lube. Have 3 Cabelas and 1 Lyman that I shoot RB in. I use a 1-1-1 mix of beeswax, deer or mutton tallow and peanut oil, I mix it to be pretty stiff, but at times I've used spittle, lard, veg oil, bore butter 1000, moose milk, coconut oil etc... didn't seem to make much difference to my guns. That patch you using seems to do the trick. I use .490 in my 50 cals and a bit thicker patch. I think the pillow ticking is about .015 and I have some muslin that is about like your .011. I my 58 i like the .565 RBs and use the heavier .015 patches. A bit hard to start so i carved a dimple in my short starter ball and put that on the ball and hit it pretty good and the ball pops right in and then goes down smooth. Congrats. Now you can spearmint with other combos and know it will shoot with the right one. Good huntin, 10 ga

[Larry Gibson]

A 1:48 should shoot balls just fine. I'd reduce the load to 50 grains and work up 5 grains at a time till you find it gets better or worse.......

I concur. Test at 100 yards if that is the max distance you expect to shoot. RBs, with the same load, can shoot very good at 25 and 50 yards and then very poorly at 100 yards. This is what you've found out. If you want to shoot accurately at 100 yards then test at 100 yards.

Larry Gibson

[Hanshi]

I've never hunted with anything other than PRBs. And I've taken scads of deer with 1-48" up to 1-66" twist rifles. All were one shot and none ran more than a few yards. One deer was in a hayfield and took a through and through .50 ball at 125 yards that dropped it. Another was 95 yards with the same results. All the rest averaged around 35-40 yards with only one at 75 yards. In my experience a .50 prb is about on par with a 30-06 in killing power. The .45 prb (my favorite) is similar to a 30/30.

[flyingstick]

My first muzzleloader was a .58 cal Antonia Zoli Carbine. I still have it, it's about 30 years old. I recently have been shooting it quite a bit and found it too does not like the bore butter, however, my .40 flint will shoot most anything. The 58 shoots roundballs really well with a 1:66 twist. It does recoil a lot with accurate hunting loads though. I can target shoot up close accuratley with just 30 grains, but it too likes 90 for 100 yards. I can't wait to try and see how thin of a patch I can get by with in it. Those accurate thumb starters are sweet!

[firefly1957]

I have always used a oil or Crisco on my patches when hunting I put a piece of cloth under the patched round ball to keep oil from powder It does not effect grouping or point of impact (for me at least). In my Kodiak 58 X 58 I use 110 grs. FFG GOEX a thin denim patch olive or vegetable oil as lube and have gotten 2 inch 100 yard groups. That thin denim can be bought as cloth or from old Womens/children clothes Mens pants are way to thick.

[northmn]

The thig about using muzzle loaders that gets me is that manufactureres have recently, more or less standardized peoples thinking to using a 50 as a game rifle. A patched round ball out of a larger bore like a 58 will out perform the 50 cal slugs on game even out to 100 yards. The truth is in BP, the best way to get more power is to use a larger bore. As to lubes, they can vary with humidity in their performance. I ahve used Bore Butter with good results. When you went up to the .011 patching and had success I was not surprised as .008 seems a bit thin to me. None of my MLs were quite that fussy, but after building and shooting a few of them, I have an ides what works from the get go. Mostly I just need to fine tune.

Northmn

[gnoahhh]

Flyingstick, glad things worked out for you. I think we all learned a little from this thread.

I may caution you when rummaging through your wife's quilting stash to studiously avoid material containing polyester as it will shed melted traces in the bore. If in doubt, set fire to a sample- polyester will melt, cotton will burn. Simplest thing is to go to a well stocked fabric store armed with your calipers and buy a yard of something that fills the bill. Cost: about $4 and you get a huge supply of consistent patches. Personally I stick with .015 pillow ticking and am done with it. Spit lube for practice, rendered bear grease for hunting lube.

The very best mat'l I've found is a really tight weave linen, but finding it is catch-as-catch can so I stick with ticking.

[docone31]

One yard of pillow ticking will outlast you.
A lifetime supply.
Watch the synthetics. They leave residue in the bore. Hard to remove.

[cwskirmisher]

It's gotta be the rate of twist. Up close (under 50 yds. or so) the velocity is sufficient to give stabilization, after that, as velocity drops, the spin is too much and the ball will start to wander. 1-48" is a compromise- too fast for optimal round ball shooting, a little slower than optimum for conicals.

It really depends on the weight/length of the projectile. Greenhill is a good rule of thumb. I shoot target loads in .50 cal all day with a 360 grain conical in a 1-60 twist over 25grains 3Fg. Deadly accurate to 100 yards. Increasing powder increases velocity and raises point of impact only slightly. YMMV.

[waksupi]

One yard of pillow ticking will outlast you.
A lifetime supply.
Watch the synthetics. They leave residue in the bore. Hard to remove.

Doc, you need to get out and shoot more! I've been to 22 shoots so far this year, with a couple more to come, plus shooting at home and up in the mountains! Shooting .62 bore rifles and smooth bores eat it up pretty fast! [smilie=l:

[cwskirmisher]

This thread has been VERY educational!! I had a beautiful kentucky half-stock custom .54 in the safe that I was sure would not shoot well. I was 'told' what to shoot in it - .520 RB and .010 pillow ticking. I did - and it would not group worth a hoot. Used 80 grains 3Fg. I put it away - for 8 years. Got it out yesterday to take to the range, just hoping for hoping sake, that time would heal it.... :mrgreen:

A small mistake on my part and some penny pinching providence turned into a success in the end. I brought a box of .530 rb's I had on hand to the range instead of the .520's. I pre-lubed (dipped) some pre-cut ticking with tallow-beeswax that I had melted the night before and put them in a small tin in my possibles bag. I had a 5-lb bag of 2Fg that had been sitting around for quite a while - decided to use it rather than break open a new keg of 3F, and proceeded to preload some quick charge tubes with 80 grains of it instead of 3Fg. I only discovered the larger ball 'error' when I could not start the load as easily as I had remembered. I thought to myself 'uh-oh' - and hit the short starter with a full whack (not my usual girly-man tap). That good whack got it started, and it went down fine after that. Left a lube ring at the muzzle from the excess on the patch. That first round went 6 inches high at 50 yards. I thought it was going to be the same old same old. But round #2 seemed to load a wee bit easier and it went 1" above the bull, and the 3rd through 10th round cut a huge hole in the same spot (bench rested, of course). Voila!!! The combination of tighter fitting load, and the 2F charge was the ticket! Never give up trying!!:lovebooli

[docone31]

Well, you are right, except I also fire R.E.A.L.s also.
I have lots of ticking left. I fire .50cal.
That is tender on ticking.
Make my own lube also. Works real well.

[Hanshi]

CWS, unless I have to give the short starter a healthy whack, I consider the load too loose. Mine are not as tight as some I've read about but snug yet usable in the field with a wooden ramrod.

[cwskirmisher]

CWS, unless I have to give the short starter a healthy whack, I consider the load too loose. Mine are not as tight as some I've read about but snug yet usable in the field with a wooden ramrod.

Excellent feedback and does legitimize my experience. I admit I thought once I got it started I wouldn't be able to ram it home with the wooden ramrod (that was the 'uh oh' when I started it).... but the lube on the patch assisted nicely and it slid down without too much difficulty. The proof is in the group, and I'll take it!!

[qajaq59]

Never give up trying!! I'll definitely go along with that advice. It took months, but my ML shoots nice now. Even small changes seem to have big effects at times.