some alloy testing

[Lloyd Smale]

buddy AL has been doing some testing with some bullets i casted. Both of us in are experience have never seen where the theroy of needing soft bullets to bumb up ever flew. I casted him some 45acps that he shot out of a couple 1911s and a couple 625s. I casted out of ww/pure 5050 straing ww #2 and 5050 ww/lyno. I also did the same for some 44 bullets that were shot out of 44 mags and specials. Some at high velocitys some at low and without exception the best shooting alloy was 5050 ww/lyno in everything. I was just telling him the other day that i had an exception to the rule with my sti trojan 9mm it shot ww/pure better then #2. Well i havent up till today tried 5050 ww/lyno in that gun because i shoot it alot and didnt want to waste the remaining lyno i have on it cause finding it is about impossible around here anymore. Today i casted up some of the bullet it likes the best and low and behold groups went from consistant 1.5 at 25 to 1 inch or less. I know some of you will argue against this but Al has about the most extensive reloading records of anyone in the country and he said looking through them theres very few exceptions to the fact that the best accuarcy comes from harder bullets even at low velocitys. Ill still shoot the softer ones in the 9s and 45acps to save my lead but for matches i know what my bullets will be casted out of. maybe if Al gets feeling better i can talk him into publishing the data he has to back this up.

[44man]

That has been my experience also. I add antimony and tin to WW metal for all of my best accuracy out of all of my revolvers. I also water drop them.
I am going to give up a little accuracy by making some softer boolits for deer this year. Since my very best accuracy always comes from Hornady jacketed bullets, Makes no sense that a soft cast will shoot better.

[drinks]

It would be a help if you would post BHN #s on the alloys.

[Bass Ackward]

Lloyd,

I kinda got some bad news for ya. Obturation is a phenom where pressure on the base tries to get it to pass the nose. Unless you have metal to metal contact, you .... will get swelling. Even jacketed bullets bump up and distort if the existing bullet isn't supported by the bore and the pressure gets high enough. So unless you are sizing over throat diameter in wheelers or choking in slabs, you will get some amount of the base trying to pass up the nose (obturation) no matter how hard the lead. If you don't, .... you get gas cutting. Simple as that.

But it isn't the obturation that does the damage and that isn't how the hard lead is helping you with accuracy either. It's the degree of expansion of the base when you leave the confines of the cylinder throat. The harder the bullet, the less expansion you get and the less sizing down is required by a forcing cone that is probably not square with the bore. Even if the forcing cone is when the handgun is new, uneven wear from bullet and powder impact will usually knock them out of true over time. So hard lead starts to act more like a GC at preventing this base area expansion / deformation.

This is why GCs tend to outshoot PB for most guys on a statistical basis also. But it still doesn't mean you can't take a gun that is correctly set up and give them a run for the money.

But you are still obturating. :grin:

[OLPDon]

Bass Acward

I guess the same goes for the Human element the harder the body the less obturating I am at the soft lead state. Not sure of my BHN# Can any of you guys come up with chart mass body weight to BHN?
Don

[44man]

Yeah, my fat belly is about .00001 Brinnel!

[44man]

Bass, since I only shoot heavy loads with hard boolits, I still think a lot has to do with the ability of the lead to take the twist without stripping. All of my boolits are throat size but soft does not shoot good because I think they strip before engaging the rifling. I have picked up soft boolits with a wide rifling band at the base (Angled all the way to the top band.) but hard boolits do not show this. This wide band will leave room for gas cutting leaving more leading in the bore.
Softer shoots better for me with reduced loads and slower powders like Unique. Go to Red dot or Bullseye and the wide groove starts to come back.
I never, ever depend on bump up with any gun and think it is bull poop. Fit the boolit, use the alloy needed for the pressure and velocity, harder for faster, and things go right.
Even though a jacketed might bump a little, they take the rifling right off and don't skid. A boolit skidding will ruin accuracy real fast.

[felix]

44man, no, it's not bullpoop. But, like you say, no matter how much obturation with soft lead, the boolit base growth will get remashed and still allow the skidding you and I both see. Revolters play havoc with soft lead, unless shot very softly. More velocity would necessairly require a softer twist. ... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

I wont argue the point with you as im sure they all do bump slightly but that doesnt explain then why the results are the same in a semi auto. Now were not talking cheap ones either. I tested with my sti and kimber gold match and colt gold cup and AL tested with his kimber and colt and all prefered the harder bullets too. Ill agree more with 44 man I believe a good part of it is the soft lead doesnt get a good enough bite on the rifleing and its probably a big contributor as to why soft bullet lead too. Ill back this up with my 625 and about 10 other 625s ive shot. They are notoriously shallow in the rifling and i might as well throw rocks as shoot soft bullet in it. With bullets around 18-20 bhn it will drive nails. Did a little more shooting today with the 9mm trojan the two bullets it likes the best are the 120 rcbs rn and the lee tumblelube tn (only TL bullet ive ever got to shoot) Cast out of 5050 the rcbs went into an inch for an average of 5 6shot groups the lee went 1 3/8s same alloy. I then switched to 5050 ww/pure and my groups went to 3 1/4 and 3 7/8s now thats no small difference. Tumble lubed bullets sized to .357 were all over the paper out of the soft alloy and shot 2 inch out of the hard. Again making it seem like the bullet is possibly stripping the rifling. Im not posting this to look like some kind of expert. I wish more then anyone that it wasnt that way and the soft bullet would shoot as well. It tough as hell to find lynotype and alot easier for me to find pure and ww.
Lloyd,

I kinda got some bad news for ya. Obturation is a phenom where pressure on the base tries to get it to pass the nose. Unless you have metal to metal contact, you .... will get swelling. Even jacketed bullets bump up and distort if the existing bullet isn't supported by the bore and the pressure gets high enough. So unless you are sizing over throat diameter in wheelers or choking in slabs, you will get some amount of the base trying to pass up the nose (obturation) no matter how hard the lead. If you don't, .... you get gas cutting. Simple as that.

But it isn't the obturation that does the damage and that isn't how the hard lead is helping you with accuracy either. It's the degree of expansion of the base when you leave the confines of the cylinder throat. The harder the bullet, the less expansion you get and the less sizing down is required by a forcing cone that is probably not square with the bore. Even if the forcing cone is when the handgun is new, uneven wear from bullet and powder impact will usually knock them out of true over time. So hard lead starts to act more like a GC at preventing this base area expansion / deformation.

This is why GCs tend to outshoot PB for most guys on a statistical basis also. But it still doesn't mean you can't take a gun that is correctly set up and give them a run for the money.

But you are still obturating. :grin:

[Lloyd Smale]

one more thought on the side of stripping through the rifling was that al told me that the soft bullets were faster then the #2 bullets and were heavier and shouldnt have been then when he switched to 5050 they were back at the same lever as the soft alloy probably due to less weight.

[44man]

You are right Felix, that soft lead needs a softer twist but then where would that leave us? Twist must match the boolit and/or the boolit must match the twist! I have to wonder how the gain twist works with cast in the S&W .460.

[44man]

Lloyd, slow down a little please. Your spelling gets skewed on your keyboard and it is hard to read some of your posts. I have to look at every letter and do the one finger thing to keep my spelling as good as I can. I can't type for beans! I will never understand how anyone learns to type fast. Personally, I am hopeless.

[GLL]

Lloyd:

What is the hardness of your 50:50 ww/lino alloy?

Jerry

[Lloyd Smale]

The alloy usually tests out at 17-19. Sorry about the spelling. I cracked a bone in my ankle the other day and im a little pumped up on anexia and muscle relaxers right now. Hell who am i trying to **** i cant spell right anyway but i sure can type fast!

[Bass Ackward]

Lloyd and 44,

Oh sure. Hard metal takes the impact and holds the lands better. But that wasn't the gist of the post. I was explaining how hard still obturated and bumped up. And that is what a GC helps you with by controling obturation by hardening the most vulnerable point of it. But you would be surprised how much stripping you can survive if the GC holds and thus maintains seal.

But hard bullets or soft, it is commonly accepted that a GC will beat a PB no matter how hard you go. This is a statistical point not an absolute.

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess it still doesnt explain why my 625 even with the two gas checked bullets i cast for it still shoots like crap with soft lead and shoots alot better with hard. How wer my spelding dis tim