.30/30 BP loads ?

[KirbyAUS]

Hi fellas,
this may sound dumb, but what grade of Black Powder would you recomend for .30/30 loads ?

At the moment I only have FFF G for my M/L.

Any special requirements - load data for .30/30 ?

Many thanks,

Kirby.

[Mike Nesbitt]

Kirby, I have no experience in loading a .30/30 with black powder. However, I have loaded some .32 Winchester Specials with black powder and when the .32 W.S. was introduced it was available in factory loaded ammo with black powder. The load used was simply 40 grains, just like the .32/40. In my opinion, FFFg might be just a little fast for your loads but it should be alright. If you can get some FFg that might work a bit better, or Cartridge powder. Cartridge is what I used in the .32 W.S. The main differences between the .30/30 and the .32 W.S. is just .013" in bullet diameter and the .32 had a 1-16" rate of twist in the barrel compared to the .30/30's 1-12" twist. They say the faster twist fouls faster. Also, in the early days the .303 Savage was available with two different blackpowder loadings. One of those loadings used the 190 grain bullet, a full metal cased bullet, over 40 grains of black powder. I have no idea what granulation of black... And they had a short range load which used a 100 grain lead bullet, or full metal case, over just 10 grains of loose black powder. The .303 used the same rate of twist to the rifling as the .30/30. So, we do know that black powder was used with a rate of twist that fast and it should work rather well for at least a few shots. (Actually, the old .25/36 Marlin used blackpowder loads with a very fast rate of twist and the .25/35 Winchester was designed for black powder but never actually factory loaded that way.) Anyway, the load you might use is 35 to 40 grains of black powder in the .30/30 under the 170 grain or similar weight bullet. You shouldn't experience any problems getting that much powder into the case. Then, please, report back with a shooting report. Shoot sharp, Mike

[omgb]

Three F is sometimes used by 38-55 shooters, 2F is more common. Be sure to use a drop tube to get all of the powder you can into the case and remember, if you are not using a GC bullet you will need a card wad between the powder and the bullet base. This wad must not be placed in the case below the neck, keep it no lower than the base of the neck or you just might end up with an obstruction.:(

You will need to use a good BP lube as well. Your bullets should be of a lead/tin alloy without antimony if possible. The softer mixture usually turns in better groups with BP.

If you are interested, you just might want to place 2-3 grains of either 2400 or RL 7 under that BP. It will burn a whole lot cleaner and you will be able to shoot more rounds without having to swab the bore.

[StarMetal]

Another major difference betwee the 32 S and the 30-30 was the 32 had alot shallower rifling. I lot of them got shot out faster then 30-30's.

Joe

[waksupi]

Mike, really good to see you posting here. After our campfire discussions, I figured you would be at home, like a hog in mud with this bunch. I do beleive that will prove out.

[Mike Nesbitt]

Waksupi, "Like a hog in mud," huh? I was afraid you'd feel that way... Always good to hear from you. Shoot sharp's the word, Mike

[Mike Nesbitt]

Another major difference betwee the 32 S and the 30-30 was the 32 had alot shallower rifling. I lot of them got shot out faster then 30-30's.

Joe

Joe, You sent me to the books with that comment. And, you are apparently correct. In Bill Brophy's book on Marlin Firearms he shows the dimensions for a .32 Special barrel being the same as a .32/40's, with a bore diameter of .313 and a groove diameter of .318". A .30/30 was bored .300" and grooved to .308". That makes for deeper rifling. That could certainly be why some of the .32 Specials had their barrels shot out before the .30/30s. At the same time, we must remember that the .32s had barrels designed for shooting non-jacketed bullets. That fact should make the .32 Specials and .32/40s more to our liking. (Yes, I like 'em!) Shoot sharp's the word, Mike

[KCSO]

I have never had real good luck with b/p in the 30 -30. They tend to foul out real quick, and it seems like the quick twist of the 30-30 doesn't help any. This is I think why they made the 32 special in the first place, because they couldn't get the 30-30 to reload well with b/p. I did seem to have better luck with FFg than FFF but the difference was only 4 shots before fouling out.

Good to see you on the board.

[Mike Nesbitt]

I have never had real good luck with b/p in the 30 -30. They tend to foul out real quick, and it seems like the quick twist of the 30-30 doesn't help any. This is I think why they made the 32 special in the first place, because they couldn't get the 30-30 to reload well with b/p. I did seem to have better luck with FFg than FFF but the difference was only 4 shots before fouling out.

Good to see you on the board.

That's exactly right. The .32 Special was "special" because it could be fired with smokeless powder and then reloaded with black powder. Many years ago I had a Model '94 Winchester rifle in .32 W.S. and it had a special sight on the back of the barrel. On one side was incriments for smokeless powder and on the other side of the sight were incriments for black powder. That's one of the guns I should have kept... For many years I've wished the good ol' Savage 99 had been made for the .32 Special cartridge, such are things to be wished for...
Thank you very much for the welcome. This is quite a "campfire." Shoot sharp, Mike

[w30wcf]

Mike,
Glad to see that you have joined us. Welcome!

Starmetal,
I would bet that it was much more the muzzle wear factor of unguided cleaning rods that caused many a lever action barrel to give up accuracy. Usually removing 2" or so from the front of one of these barrels will restore it. It did on a friend of mine's 336 .32 W.S. Before: bullets keholed / after: 1 1/2" 50- yard groups.

Also, many barrels were ruined by potassium chlorate type primers back in the early 1900's if they weren't cleaned properly after use. Unfortunately, many weren't.

KirbyAUS,
Welcome to the forum. Regarding black powder in the .30-30, way back in 1897, Marlin's catalog of that year indicated that in addition to reloading with smokeless powder, blackpowder could be used.

HOWEVER, blackpowder back in the late 1890's was highly refined, designed to burn with a moist and minimum residuum resulting in minimal fouling. Current b.p.'smanufactured in the U.S. do not have these attributes. Swiss b.p. is the powder of choice to closely replicate those b.p.'s of a bi gone era. KIK and Schutzen may be better in this regard also, but I have no experience with them.

As KCSO indicated, Goex B.P. fouls out fairly quickly, but by adding 10% of the b.p. charge in smokeless as omgb mentioned (I prefer 4227 or 4759) barrel fouling would be kept to a minimum.

Early .30-30 cast bullet designs illustrated in the same 1897 catalog were multi grooved to hold a fair amount of lube, similar to the Loverin style bullets introduced in the 1950's. I have used the 150 gr. Loverin and an LBT 160 gr. bullet for b.p. loads in my .30-30's. Lubricated with SPG lube, both of these bullets have given satisfactory results.

I have tried both FFG and FFFG granulations and FFFG seems to work the best.
With 44 grs. of Swiss 3F, I have achieved 1 1/2" groups at 50 yards. Groups with smokeless powder run about 1/2 of that. Velocity with this load actually reaches 1,600 f.p.s. making it an "Express" cartridge by 1890's definition. I have fired upwards of 15 shots in a row with no accuracy deterioration using Swiss b.p.

Good luck. Please keep us posted on your results.

w30wcf

[KCSO]

I took the chicken way out and when GPC had 32 barrels on sale I got a half dozen of them and now all my 30-30 friends are shooting 32's and loving it. I've become quite a fan of the 32 special. So far out of our group of 6 three of us have taken 3 deer with 3 shots, and if I get a hankering for b/p I get excellent results with cheap old Elephant.

[KirbyAUS]

Wow,
thanks for all the great advice fellas.
I'm not sure .30/30 in BP is really worth it.

I do have a Rossi '92 in .44 Magnum. Being a straight sided case - will it be a bit messy ?
Perhaps I'll have an excuse to buy a .38/40 or .44/40 and go at it that way.

I use WANO powder - Goex is available but at over $50 Dingo dollars per lb is way too expensive.

So FFG is the preferred grade for small cartridges then ?

Kirby.

[Old Ironsights]

I shoot 4F in my .357 Rossi 92 without issue. I have lots of it and need to use it up.

I have 5gr (under Farina) "catsneeze loads" and full case compressed loads.

Mind you, I don't shoot this stuff for accuracy, just for plinking &/or subsonic varmint control, but it works every time and really isn't messy as long as you aren't levering through the rounds quickly.

While I have no experience loading bottleneck certridges, I can't imagine that a properly settled & compressed BP load in a 30-30 would be that big of a problem. Just use soft lead and good lube.

As for KIK? It's good powder. Graphite coating isn't as shiny as Swiss, but it's cleaner and more energetic than Goex Red Can IME. Nice compromise. I prefer Graf/Schutzen though. Both Graf & KIK run about $10/lb.

[w30wcf]

KirbyAUS,

FFG was the granulation used by factories in loading .38-40 & .44-40 cartridges.
I use FFG in my .44-40 and .45 Colt and it works very well.

In the .38 Special / .357 Magnum and .32 Long Colt, I like FFFG the best.

w30wcf

[KCSO]

I will throw this out and see where it splats. I keep hearing what they used in factory ctgs and most of it is bunk. Powder varies by lot, even is you have large lots things change. There was no 38-40 44-40 ect. The factories loaded ammo to set velocities. They measured each lot of powder and used whatever amount of powder that would give the right velocity and sometimed mixed powders to achieve this. In fact Winchester never loaded a 44-40 That was a gimmick by Marlin to seperate their 44 from Winchesters. Winchester loaded 44 WCF 38 WCF ect. I have pulled apart hundreds of rounds of B/P ctgs in an attempt to get a handle on what is or isn't authentic. 45-70's from F/A ran from 67 to 71 grains of powder depending on YOM and date. The powder as screened, throwing out the powder that had to be scraped ran from modern ffg to fffg with some Fg size grains. 45 Colt rounds usually ran between 35- 37 grains of what we would call FF/FFFg in WTC, Peters and UMC loadings and the military cases ran 25-28 grains. When you add in the fact that the old powders were not glazed and were tumbled for as much as 10 times as long you can see that we in our time are simply comparing apples to oranges. So I just do what the factories did, I load for a uniform velocity. Depending on powder brand and lot number I have used fff, ff, and F in 45 Colt with good results, as long as I got accuracy and the velocity was in the right area I am plumb happy. And just as a note I shot 10 rounds of Peters bp loads from the 1930's over the chrono. 36 grains of mostly ffg gave 900 fps average in a 7 1/2" bbl colt. That was a humpin' load.

[NickSS]

I have loaded black powder in my 30-30 Pedersoli Rolling block rifle. I ended up using a gas checked Lyman 311041 bullet lubed with my own BP lube over 42 gr of FFFG Elephant powder. This load worked fine and produced 2.5 to 3 inch groups at 100 yards as long as I used a blow tube between shots I could get up to fifty rounds down range with the same accuracy. If I tried to shot the rifle without a blow tube I could see my groups growing after the fifth shot and after 10 I would not call them groups anymore just random hits on the paper along with a lot of leading. I never tried these loads in my lever guns so can not speak to them. I did try a duplex load consisting of 4 gr of W 296 and 38 gr of FFFG and I could get about 10 rounds before my groups started to grow. I gave up on loading black in the 30-30 mostly because of the trouble cleaning the cases after each use. Due to the bottle neck they took longer to clean than my 38-55 and did not shoot nearly as well.

[w30wcf]

Howdy KCSO,

Early catalogs did show the qty of b.p. and the type for each cartridge. FFG was referenced the most for the .44-40 and .45 Colt. Now, what they actually loaded is open to question.

Like yourself, I have dissected a number of b.p.rounds....mostly .44 W.C.F., .44-40, and .45 Colt. Since there was at least .20" of compression in most of them (.24" in some early .44-40-217 ctgs.) the powder that I could remove with the inertia puller, under examination, did, as you indicated, have some finer b.p. mixed into what was mostly FFG granulaton. Part of that could be attributed to the breaking up of some of the powder in the compression process.

In replication of the .44 W.C.F. cartridge, I have loaded 40 grs. of FFG and achieved 1,250 f.p.s. with a 200 gr. cast bullet. 1,245 f.p.s. was the early cataloged velocity.

In replicating the early version of the .44-40 cartridge, I also used 40 grains of FFG and that went 1,197 f.p.s. with a 217 gr. cast bullet. Again, pretty darn close to the Marlin's cataloged velocity of 1,190 f.p.s.

I think what you meant to say is that Winchester never marked their rifles .44-40 which was the nomenclature adopted by Marlin / U.M.C., which is true. On the other hand, WInchester did offer both .44W.C.F. and .44-40 headstamped cartridges and U.M.C. & REM-UMC offered .44 W.C.F. cartridges in addition to their .44-40 round. I have examples of all of these in my collection and they are listed in the early catalogs.

For more information on the history of the .44 W.C.F. & .44-40 cartridges, please see my write up at http://www.leverguns.com/articles/44wcf.htm

Sincerely,
w30wcf

[KCSO]

Yes I have seen the catalogs, but J B Wood had a set of screens from the mid 1800's and they were not quite the same grain size as our modern powders. For that matter measure Elephant and Swiss ect and you will get slightly different figures. In addition when I was really into x sticks I use to chrono and seperate each lot of B/P. My history of King's Powder tells about mixing powder to reach the right velocity. I'm just saying that some folks are way too worried about gettng 40 grains in a 44-40 and not looking for what works. I was just pointing out that because we say 44-40 that doesn't mean that it invariably had to have 40 grains of powder and in fact most didn't I am surprised that you could get that much powder in a modern 44-40 I haven't been able to go more than about 36, but that works for me. I liked your article and that about sums it up.

I was lucky enough that I got to Chadron right after the forrest fire and got in where they bulldozed up the old Fort firing range. I picked up a shoe box full of old ammo and cases and bullets. All of that was pulled down weighed and measured. Although I have found 44's with 40 I have yet to find 40 in a 45. But if 36 will push a 255 at 900 fps that's enough for me. If you think the samll ones were bad I have 6 different loading all for 45-2 1/10 Sharps. Can you imagian telling the kid at the local K mart you want a 45- 2 1/10 420 Naked!

[floodgate]

John:

Did you ever break down any of the .44(-40) CLMR's for the Colt Lightning Magazine Rifles?

Doug

[w30wcf]

KCSO,

Yes, I have read about the slight difference in the mesh sizes between a century ago and present day. Just as you mentioned, I have noted the difference in ballistic strength between Goex, Elephant and Swiss andalso the different densities....even between lots.

Regarding 40 grains (by weight) in the .44-40, I guess I am just a traditionalist and try to replicate loads as they were back in the days of yore. Not to say that I have not tried loading less powder because I have. With .20" of compression, I found that I can load 40 grs. in modern brass IF I use a bullet with a seating depth of .30". Original bullets in balloon head cases were seated to about .35".
I have also used balloon head cases for replication loads, but I know that is something that you caution against, and for good reason, especially when one does not know the history of the casings.

Regarding the .45 Colt, it appears that only U.M.C. and REM-UMC used the full 40 gr. charges. THe highest W.R.A. CO. listing I find is 38 grs. I have dissected some U.M.C. .45 Colts and have found a few at the lesser 35 gr. load, but the majority ranged between 39 and 41 grs. As you said though, 900 f.p.s. with 36 grs. is plenty.

Nice find at Chardon. Glad that you were able to rescue some historic cartridges.
As for the .45- -2 1/10 Sharps :mrgreen:

w30wcf

[KCSO]

When I started I was given a tong tool and a cigar box of 47-70 brass that was all baloon head, a cut off case for a measure and an old military 500 gr bullet mould. This with old Dupont powder made perfect ammo for the old trapdoor carbine. It sure was simple then!

[w30wcf]

Yes indeed, life was much simpler then........like stepping back in time. Neat!

In order to relive a little history myself, I picked up a Winchester .44 W.C.F. loading tool a few years ago along with a Winchester bullet mold. I have used it to load b.p. cartridges for my vintage 1873 Winchester possibly just as its original owner possibly did back in 1882.

It's funny how life changes things. In my school days, my absolute worst subject was History, but today I can't seem to get enough when it comes to cartridges and the firearms that used them.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

floodgate,

I did some checking and find that I have two UMC headstamped .44 CLMR catridges but have'nt dissected them. According to UMC, they are loaded with 40 grs. of b.p. In comparing them with UMC .44-40 catridges, the only difference I can detect is the headstamp.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

NickSS,

Thank you for sharing your experiences with black powder and the .30-30.
Interesting.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Thought I would bring this thread back to the top since it has lots of good info for those who may have missed it the first time around. :drinks:

w30wcf

[northmn]

This thread has been a very interesting read. I have always thought the 32 special got the short end compared to the 30-30 and felt it was due to the rifling. I suspect that Winc did not want to tool up to a better rifling as they had setups for the 32-40. Always felt that the 32 would have been great with a heavier bullet like the 190 gra cast I shoot in the 30-30. One thing I would point out is that fouling problems are a matter of use. In the field 4-5 shots are all thats needed before cleaning. Most of the local old time 30-30 users only load 4 rounds in their rifles. Kind of consider full magazines go with rookies. May have been different when guns were left loaded and not always loaded and then unloaded. Prevents nose smashing and is all thats needed. I have to experiment with my 45 and BP more.

Northmn

[oldhickory]

I'm not sure if the rifling twist has been brought up or not, the old .32s used a 1:14-1:16 twist where as the .30WCF uses a 1:12, (also deeper). This may be a factor in loading Holy Black given the faster twist, it's bound to foul quickly in my opinion, then again, I've never tried loading black powder in a .30WCF.

[marlo86]

I have a Marlin lever action 1887-1895 30-30 cal smokeless steel rifle in excellent condition can I use smokeless powder in it

[bob208]

the .30-30 was not intended to shoot b-p. that is why the .32spl. was made because a lot of people still reloaded with b-p. the later .32 spl. were made for smokless. i have one that has the smokless rear sight on it and it is even marked for smokless and the barrel is marked nickle steel.

[John Boy]

Kirby, never tried black powder for 30-30 reloads. But if you have any or want to try it - Triple Seven
Here is an approved loading data from Hodgdon Powders that I tried once. It was accurate @ 100yds (1 - 2" benchrest) but the recoil about tore my face off!


Mr Hodgdon: If H777 is not recommended for a 30/30 case, why then is there a recipe on your website for a 160gr Cast LRN at http://www.hodgdon.com/data/tripleseven/cartridge-2f.php#top ? My intention was to use a 165gr cast RNFP bullet using 40gr vol of H777.

OK, now I look like quite the idiot. I discussed it with our black powder gurus here, and they agreed that it is not a good idea, that said the folks in the lab shot it, and it worked ok. So I guess it would be fine.
Thanks,
Phil

[Sixgun Symphony]

Check the gunshows and pawnshops for Winchester rifles chambered in .32 Winchester Special. I still see them from time to time.

[bigted]

personally i cant see a thing wrong with bp in a 30-30 win. specially if a person used a duplex load with imr 4227 as the 10% smokless and the rest of the case filled with bp of the 2 or 3 f variety. i can hear the huffs about the suggestion of a duplex load but the clean way it burns in the barrel and the fun factor is still an option in my book. never throw out any angles without turnin it over in yer mind fer awhile. let us know how your experiment goes...please