240 GC 44 mag

[x101airborne]

Hi guys, first let me introduce myself. I am a former Army Aviation soldier and a 6 year police officer in Texas. I have been poking around yall's site for a few months now and all I can say is "You guys are the tops!" That being said,:smile:

Reloaded some home grown Lee 240 gr. 44 cal gas checked loads today with EXCELLENT results thanks to the knowledge gained on this site.

My 1st 44 mag is a Ruger Redhawk. Mix cases, wolf LP primers, 18.0 gr. 2400 and a decient crimp. 1199 fps, 1233 fps, 1214 fps, 1208 fps, 1246 fps, and 1282 fps. AV- 1230 SD-30.56

My 2nd 44 mag is also a Ruger Redhawk. Same load as above 1212 fps, 1225 fps, 1297 fps, 1242 fps, 1257 fps, 1267 fps. AV-1250 SD-30.59

My 3rd 44 mag is a Marin ballard levergun. Same load as above 1650 fps, 1576 fps, 1566 fps, 1573 fps, 1582 fps, 1591 fps. AV-1589 SD-30.74

My question is.... Although I had NO leading, I am looking to keep the 1250 AV, but drop my SD down below 20. Any ideas from the Guru's?

[justingrosche]

I think your goal is obtainable as long as you deal with the variables. Are you weight matching your cast Boolits?
I dont know much about Wolf primers, perhaps going with Fed match primer might cut your spread down as well. Although I dont see anything so terrible about what you have now, that is if your hitting where your aiming. Otherwise SD is kind of a mute point.
Justin

[x101airborne]

All my cast bullets came out +/- .2 gr. My issue with the load is the marlin does not care for the load. I am trying to find a moderate load to use in the pistols and the rifle for mid range hogs, deer, yotes. I was hoping that dropping my SD would tighten the groups in the rifle. Handguns give 2 - 2 1/2 inch groups @ 25 yards.

[sagacious]

Do not load mixed cases. Separate by manufacturer and specific headstamp.
Trim all your cases to a standard length. Set aside any short cases.
Make sure your crimps are uniform.

Your SD numbers are OK. No need to fret overmuch. It seems very unlikely that dropping the SD from 30 to 20 will show on the target at 44mag ranges. Good luck!

[chaos]

What kind of groups are your revolvers producing? VS. what is the rifle printing?

With attention to detail as the others have posted, the only thing I can think of for making the rifle more accurete is loading FAT slugs for it. Many on this site claim that fat slugs are needed in the marlin for any kind of accuracy.

Like you, I shoot a marlin in 44 and a couple of Rugers, but mine are SBH'S. I load the RCBS-44-240-SWC with great results. Run them in the middle of the load data over WIN 296, seems to be a winniner in all 5 of my 44's.

i dont own a chrony, but would be interesting to see what they clocked at. I do know that they dont lack in the penetration department.

[justingrosche]

What was the condition of your rifle bore before you fired the first shot? Clean as a whistle? Clean with bore conditioner? Fouling from last shot? You dropped velocity from you 1st to your 4th then started picking up again, just has me curios as to why. What lube are you using? Not that I think its all that important. Poor bore condition and bullet fit wont save the best lube or alloy.

[Blammer]

forget SD what is your accuracy like?

[Larry Gibson]

The SD and ES of that load is not really that bad for 6 shot strings. Those are really not large enough samples to really tell. For accuracy a 7 - 10 shot string is adequate. For 95% surety on SDs and ES figures some statisticians say a 30 shot string is required. Although the 18 shots through 3 different gun tell you it is a fairly consistent load. If accuracy is good don't bother chasing a small SD unless you plan on a lot of shooting past 200 yards and test with much larger test strings.

With revolvers I use 6 shot strings to get an idea of a good load and then shoot confirmation strings of at least 12 shots.

About the Marlin test; if that 1650 fps shot was the 1st shot out of a clean barrel then it is telling you a couple fouler shots are needed before consistent readings can be had. The following 5 shots are pretty consistent. That is to be expected though as .44 loads with 2400 have almost always been more consistent out of rifle or Contender barrels than in revolvers with their long throats and barrel/cylinder gaps.

For rifle loads I like three 10 shot test strings for confirmation of accuracy and internal ballistics (SD & ES results).

A suggestion when loading for a rilfe handgun combo; Work the loads up in the rifle staying within loading recommendations for handgun loads. Then accept the accuracy performance of the best load for the rifle in the revolvers. I've found that many times the "accurate" revolver loads are many times not accurate in rifles, especially with cast bullets. Conversely, it is rare when an accurate load in the rifle is also not accurate in the revolver.

Larry Gibson

[x101airborne]

Good points, all. I did not slug my rifle, but my handguns both have bores around .2495 - .2499 by C-mike. my rifle groups in the 6" range at 50 yards, wich is dismal. my bullets are sized .430 on a lyman lubrisizer. I just cant figure why I get good (acceptable) accuracy from the pistols, but not the rifle. I am using Lyman Alox lube. I did not clean the barrel before shooting, but the rifle had about 50 lead GC rounds run through it before testing.

[IcerUSA]

How the heck did you lube them size boolits in that sizer ? hehe

Keith

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Good points, all. I did not slug my rifle, but my handguns both have bores around .2495 - .2499 by C-mike. my rifle groups in the 6" range at 50 yards, wich is dismal. my bullets are sized .430 on a lyman lubrisizer. I just cant figure why I get good (acceptable) accuracy from the pistols, but not the rifle. I am using Lyman Alox lube. I did not clean the barrel before shooting, but the rifle had about 50 lead GC rounds run through it before testing.

I think you mean .4295 - .4299 . . . but that's a good start, next is to drop the cylinder out of each revolver and slug those . . . also while your measuring . . . seat a boolit on a dummy round (no primer or powder) and then pull it out and measure that.

[x101airborne]

Well, caught with my lexdislea hangin out. LOL. Yes, i meant .4295 - .4299. It is not polite to make fun of a disability,but it gives me something to do. JK

[Echo]

You don't mention the group size of the revolver firings. Six inches @ 50 yards is marginal for the Marlin, so there is something going on with the interaction effect between rounds and rifle. Slug the bore, and the throat. I have heard that one should size rifle boolits to .001 over the throat diameter. Is the Marlin fairly new, or has it had a jillion boolits sent down the pike? Do you have any leading toward the end of the barrel? If so, your lube is running out.

[HeavyMetal]

First don't expect a load that will work in a pistol to do as well in a rifle, or another pistol for that matter,.

Each gun may favor a different load but only shooting will tell.

Now as to "technique", I have loaded and fired mixed case's in plenty of calibers and gotten fair results.

However when I finally convinced myself to start trimming, sorting by head stamp and other assorted case prep I diffinately found smaller groups.

The real issue here is what type load do you actually want?

Plinker, mid range or full power? Each of these can utilize different techniques as well as different powders to get the most out of each of your guns.

Slug both the cylinder mouths of you Redhawks and the bore of your Marlin and be prepared to find out that they will each prefer something different.

You may also fing that each may prefer a different fuel as well.

Powder suggestions have been well covered, unique for plinkin to mid range, Bluedot for mid range to fairly hot WW 296 for full power max effort loads.

Standard primers to be used behind all these powders! I see you've been using 2400 and for the life of me I've never been able to get excited about this stuff in any way!

I know a lot of guys use this in reduced rifle loads but for the 44 magnum WW296 will do everything that 2400 will do and do it better and cleaner and longer!

For me Unique and WW296 are the only powders that get run through the 44 mag.

Lets talk about boolits: sounds like you got your alloy right but I think a change from alox may net you a bit better groub size and will suggest Carnuba Red in the next batch of Marlin loads just for grins!

I will second the notion of loading a dummy round and then pulling the boolit to see if it "shinks" when seated in your case. If it does you may need a different expander plug at least for the rounds headed into the Marlin.

I am also not a big fan of the Lee 44 mag boolit designs, I just never saw a boolit I liked for that caliber in there catalog but recently I have been looking at the 44-200 RF and wishing it were a 250! Meantime I still shoot a lot of lyman 429421 and think you should try some of these in all three guns!

Well I've carried on enough for now and hopefully have given you some food for thought about your next batch of reloads.

and the question about SD? I have never paid any attention to SD and have never had anyone prove to me they could predict it or or get it to produce accurate loads from it's presence.

SD is like a padded bra once you figure it out the funs all gone!

[lwknight]

SD is like a padded bra once you figure it out the funs all gone!
I have to remember that one for the next SD thread LOL.

[Lloyd Smale]

like was said. ditch the wolf primers first. Ive found them not to be very consistant and there a bit on the week side. If you insist on using wolf try there mag pistol. They have about the same power as a normal std primer. Second is the mixed brass. I use it all the time but its probably not the best for what your trying to do. Third recomendation is not to worry about it. If your getting good accuracy and your sd is under 75fps i doubt it will effect a thing. When sd gets much over 50fps you will notice accuracy isnt consistant out past 200 yards but out to a 100 ive shot some pretty good groups with loads that very even 75fps.

[Bret4207]

X101, first off- welcome. Only 6 years on the job? Hah! I got dingleberrys been on longer than that! (NYSP 20+ years).

Niceties out of the way, fit comes first with cast. Like HM said, you need to at least get a ballpark idea of where you are with that. You can try checking the mouth of a fired case, fired with a full power round. The ID will be as large as you can go with that brass and while some here disagree with the idea, I've found I usually end up close to that size in the end. It'll be near throat size. It's almost always better to err to the large side with cast. Micrgroove barrels are allegedly even more prone to wanting fat boolits from what I read. So your .430 in the Marlin would be my first area of investigation. The simplest thing to do is try a few unsized but lubed boolits if they'll chamber.

Using SD for a guide to accuracy is theoretically a good idea. In real world terms I'm not sure we're in the realm where we'd see the difference. Now a BR rifle shooting in the .2's...yeah, that's something a little different.

[44man]

Everyone is right about SD's. Ignore the chronograph and leave it home when you work loads. Those figures have nothing to do with accuracy.
The Marlin!!!!! What can I say? The stupid twist is the trouble and after years of messing with mine I lucked into almost tin can accuracy at 100 yards. I found a mold I made long ago that I have tried in my SBH but I didn't like it. I cast some and tried them in my Marlin and the darn thing shoots OK.
It weighs 285 gr and it takes 23 gr of 296 with a Fed 150 primer. I sized .432" with Felix lube. They kind of surprised me.

[Bob Krack]

You've heard from several REAL experts in this thread!

I say listen to them all and if I may add - pick the one brand of case you have the most of and use them to develop a load for the Marlin. Forget the chrony for now. Yeah, with Wolf try the mag primers.

Work on your load til you get the best you are willing to settle on an then try them in your handguns.

You might be surprised.

Bob

[ironhead7544]

Ive never had any luck when trying to load down with 2400. I would work up a little for better accuracy. The Marlin probably needs a .452 bullet. For mid range loads Unique works in my 44 mag revolvers and rifles. I heard that AA#9 will down load if you want something between mid range and max velocities. I used to shoot a lot of WW231 and the max listed loads were very consistent so you might try that. Just my .02.

[Char-Gar]

I would just like to add my "amen" to those that advocate forgetting about all of that chrony stuff and see how far the bullets land on paper. YOu really can't predict from the numbers what a bullet will do in the air.

I have a good Marlin 44 Mag rifle (MG) but have not done much load development. I have an old RCBS SWC GC mold that throws bullets about 240 grains although RCBS calls it a 225 grain bullet. This bullet on top of 10/Unique gives out standing accuracy out of the Marlin and my old 3 screw Ruger SBH. Power is more than adequate for any use I have and recoil is quite easy to handle.

[rhead]

With a SD in the range you reported and the group size you are getting from the rifle your problem is NOT inconsistent velocity. More than likely it is a problem with the bullet/throat fit. Try the largest diameter bullet that will chamber easily when loaded. It sounds like a stability problem with the marlin. A 240 grain bullet should not give problems over length so bullet diameter is the next guess. If the revolvers are shooting well with what you have now it is possible that a bullet that shoots well in the marlin will not chamber in the revolvers.

I am glad I bought a Winchester. :smile:

[44man]

I have a little 250 gr boolit I had Dave Farmer make a mold for long ago. I wanted to see how it did for IHMSA but it didn't work good from the revolver.
I tried it in the Marlin for plinking and had to cut a batch of brass to 1.250" so it would function. With 7 gr of Unique, it would do 1/2" at 50 most times but forget it at 100 yards, shotgun!
It never gets any better no matter what powder or charge at any distance past 50 yards.

[Char-Gar]

Just another word about my limited experience with the Marlin MG in 44 Mag. I also tried the old 260 grain 429244 sized .431. On top of 10/Unique it gave very large groups. When I upped the velocity with 20/2400 the groups tightened up quite well. That slow Marlin barrel twist can be an issue, if it is not taken into account.

All of these Marlin leverguns in pistol calibers are very particular about the overall length of rounds. However the back of the carrier can be filed a smidge and then the rifle will feed most any bullet well. There are some instruction with pics on how to do this floating round on the web, but I have lost the link. It works!

[Bass Ackward]

Wow. This thread aught to be called the bias thread.

So what does this poor guy do after all this negativity?

The first thing is to learn that there are big picture problems and small picture problems. Learn what techniques will have an effect on each problem type.

Solve the launch problem first. Then tweak if it is necessary.

Personally, I recommend 13.5 grains of 2400 with a 5 - 12 BHN bullet. Diameter .4345 and I light that with a standard Wolfer in a my slow twist Marlin. :grin: (works in the Redhawls too.)

[44man]

Just another word about my limited experience with the Marlin MG in 44 Mag. I also tried the old 260 grain 429244 sized .431. On top of 10/Unique it gave very large groups. When I upped the velocity with 20/2400 the groups tightened up quite well. That slow Marlin barrel twist can be an issue, if it is not taken into account.

All of these Marlin leverguns in pistol calibers are very particular about the overall length of rounds. However the back of the carrier can be filed a smidge and then the rifle will feed most any bullet well. There are some instruction with pics on how to do this floating round on the web, but I have lost the link. It works!
I had to do that to Bioman's rifle but the little boolit I have feeds OK in my rifle but I can't eject a loaded round. The port is too short.

[EDK]

You have THE MAN on MARLIN rifles in your back yard...Ranch Dog at Cuero(?) His TLC 432 265 is designed for the Marlins...and works great in the assortment of Rugers I have access to. I size to .431+ for my Cowboy rifles and VAQUEROS.

Other good sources are Glenn Fryxell's articles at lasc.us and marlinowners.com.
Basically the Marlins like hard alloy, high velocity and gas checks. Go large on sizing diameter.

You can do pretty good with the rifle if you experiment some, BUT generic loads will give you generic results. I end up loading more specific ammo for the rifle (for serious purposes) and use the generic handgun ammo for cowboy action shooting/plinking.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[44man]

You have THE MAN on MARLIN rifles in your back yard...Ranch Dog at Cuero(?) His TLC 432 265 is designed for the Marlins...and works great in the assortment of Rugers I have access to. I size to .431+ for my Cowboy rifles and VAQUEROS.

Other good sources are Glenn Fryxell's articles at lasc.us and marlinowners.com.
Basically the Marlins like hard alloy, high velocity and gas checks. Go large on sizing diameter.

You can do pretty good with the rifle if you experiment some, BUT generic loads will give you generic results. I end up loading more specific ammo for the rifle (for serious purposes) and use the generic handgun ammo for cowboy action shooting/plinking.

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:
I can tell you one thing about that RD 265 gr boolit, lubed with Felix, sized .432 with 22 gr of 296, it will do 3/4" at 50 yards out of my SBH. One of the best I ever used from a revolver! It is great from a S&W too.

[David2011]

Seems like Mike Venturino might have been writing about the difficulty of getting one load to work in rifles and handguns in a recent issue of Handloader. What works well in one may not shoot well at all in another. Like others said, don't fret so much over a small SD. While a chronograph is a useful tool in reloading, it is not THE tool. It's just A tool. THE tool is your target downrange. If you get tight groups downrange, everything else is secondary. If you get poor groups, use the other tools to help determine why the groups are poor. Welcome and good luck! After years of casting .38, .357, .40 and .45Coltand ACP, I recently started casting for a 14" .44 Mag Contender so I feel the growing pains. It's a different animal.

David