Sucess w / Group Buy Molds

[Bass Ackward]

I read on another thread where people were mentioning that there is soooooo little comment on shooting results of group buy designs. And they are probably correct. But why?

I think that you see very little results listed here in general because this borad actually thrives because it encourages wide cast bullet use in general. But it frowns on establishing any accuracy criteria that might discourage someone just getting started or an old hand that is just interested in blammin. Some people just don't like standards.

Accuracy is a relative game. As it should be. Most of us can't expect to out shoot rifles at 100 yards if we are using a handgun. But there are those here that do. Shouldn't they set a standard for others to meet? Tough question. I can see both sides.

Unless you are 44man shooting 100 yard handgun results better than most results reported with rifles, rifle results that don't exceed that standard, go unreported now. I can't beat him with a handgun that's for sure.

Some some custom designs are made to fill a niche that is otherwise unavailable commercially usually because of diameter. Either that or we just copy something that is already out there that has worked and we just want to retire our one cavity we have presently.

Eventually someone really makes a major achievement, like the 300 yard, 338 targets. We just have to hear about results like those and provide a comment. And that was really great. Especially for those still attempting to achieve good results with a 338. I often don't bother to report success unless it is from an experiment. So I am going to stop that today.

Last year I got in on Bob's 44 caliber, 240 grain, PB, that he designed to look like a RNFP which almost mimics the profile of a Hornady XTP with a grease groove and three seating lengths. Ironically this was supposed to be a rifle bullet, but Lee screwed up the diameter on my mold, so it became a handgun bulet of increased lube carrying capability when you used the other two crimp grooves for lube.

I will tell you I shot three groups under 1 1/2" today at 50 yards with that bullet using 9.5 grains of Herco seated out to the last crimp groove. Two of those groups were, shall we say, well under an inch which managed one ragged hole. Open sights and all.

One other thing of note. I have over 2000 rounds through my first Ruger Redhawk and I believe that it is just now breaking in for producing consistent results. The last step in break-in was to finally get a smooth finish in the entire forcing cone area.

Last weekend I took an orange wire nut, drilled a hole in it the diameter to fit the shank of a bore brush, and I put it over the copper bore brush between it and the cleaning rod. I placed 600 grit in the forcing cone and I began to twirl the rod with my fingers. The bristles on the brush provided friction to keep the wire nut from turning on the shaft and allowed it to polish. This was a perfect fit and removed the circular tool marks placing a mirror smooth finish in it as was already in the rest of the bore.

Today I got absolutely no leading anywhere. None. And the load shot all day long. So my bullets had been being ruined by the condition of the forcing cone which would sure surprise many folks. But there it is. same conditions, just a smooth cone and ZERO leading. :grin:

[targetshootr]

Nice shooting. l only have one group buy in my hands so far but l never post results anyhow. l always shoot offhand so there's no way fro me to cipher what works and what doesn't. l believe my best efforts are due more to breathing and trigger control than anything else. But I do have a work truck full of various wire nuts so there's no telling what lies ahead.

[MGySgt]

Good Shooting Bass - and finally someone has said that 44 mould couild produce some good groups!.

I have that same mould and did not get good results straight out - I think I need to cast some more up and try again.

Drew

[David R]

Bass,

I reported and posted a pic of success of our group buy 311407 in my 1917 enfield using Promo (red dot). I got slammed saying that wasn't good enough for any gun. It was a good target for that rifle and my eyes. It was the best that rifle ever shot with lead, 10 shots in about 3 1/2". I shoot that load in competition. Last match I shot it in, 200 yards 3 position, I got 3rd place. The only other person shooting lead was my son in his 1892 mauser. To me that is success regardless of group size.

I also shoot that same gun and load in silly wet competition. Its a blast to shoot that old rifle and get a good score.

I bought 8 lbs of Promo for $79.00 and have a 6 cavity mold. It shoots great and for ME that is heaven. When I am at the range, I let any one shoot it. It costs me little and doesn't take much time to crank em out on the dillon. I am trying to get more people to shoot lead.

I also posted a pic of a 5" 13 shot group out of my 22-250 with lead at 300 yards. Not much said at all. This was a lyman mold.

No, I don't post bad results. We had a 45 auto kind of heavy boolit that wasn't worth much TO ME IN MY GUNS.

I can only hope the Kieth 38 group buy shoots as well as my Lyman. I will know when the mold shows up and I try it.

I think all the group buys are a crap shoot. Not because the design, but if the boolit fits the rifle, it will work. You know more than anyone, every rifle is different. If you hit it lucky like I did with the 311407, its worth every bit of throuble dealing with the rest.

[Bass Ackward]

Target shooter: But I do have a work truck full of various wire nuts so there's no telling what lies ahead.


That is a problem that I always get into and I was wondering about people's later feelings on group buy efforts and I ran off topic. My leading had been always starting in my forcing cone and quite honestly I had resigned myself that there was an alignment issue and I had been shooting around it. This gun had been lapped on two seperate occasions and still leaded. If fact, it had shot better that way. I was shocked that I had mis diagnosed the problem for so long.


Drew: I have that same mould and did not get good results straight out

Well straight out is not me either. And it wasn't the bullet's fault. I had several issues with this Redhawk. In fact, this gun whipped me so badly for so long, I sent my other Redhawk away to have some work done to it before I start on it.

My guess is that most people by a 6 cavity to have bullet availability. Then they wait for someone else to attain success instead of going at it that this is the last bullet mold on earth and I JUST HAVE to make it work. Then you get a good effort for YOUR gun. But this is with all molds in general, not just group buys. If a guy doesn't have success early, it's the mold's / design's fault. The secret with cast is early results for a lot of people.

That's what I want to see if I am right with this thread.


David,

I missed those reports apparently. So you took one design seriously enough to use it for competition? That's was unexpected. Outside of a design for a specific like hunting, my guess was these group buys were blammin fodder.

My best shooting design for my two groove was always the 311467. But because it was a single cavity and difficult to mold with, I sold it. I think I used @ 31 grains of 4198 and molded ringers (hard bullets). Never chrono'd it. My guess is @ 2000 fps.

I think it's hard for people to appreciate open sight results in general. I know that I dismiss really good results as more luck than I should. That's because of the general age and eye sight of cast shooters. But I can tell you that "WE" the shooter compound the difficulty with open sights and often give up too easily. Take my results above. My eyesight didn't improve with some wonder drug. It took me a few months to get a target that I could get a reproducible sight picture with at that distance. And it took the right lighting conditions too. Everything has to come together. But I was getting laughed at with the Space Invader Ray gun, so back to opens.

[steveb]

Good shooting Bass! I have posted results from the Ranch Dog TLC432-285-RF group buy I got in on and the C358-180-RF group buy I got in on. Although my testing with the C358-180-RF out of my Rossi 92 chambered in 357Mag was from the first run IIRC. I havent got a chance to test the latest run but when I do I will post them.:castmine: I'm all for posting the results. The good, bad, and ugly:-D

[Leftoverdj]

We are not all trying to do the same things with cast bullets, and we don't all have the same definition of "good results". Two MOA in a rifle is plenty good for my purposes, and I tend to stop when I get there. We have some posters who are into serious accuracy, and my "good results" would not be at all good for them.

The most popular of the group designs has been the C360-180-RF which was designed as a pure hunting bullet. It's been rerun so so often that I have lost track because it does exactly what it was meant to do; it puts some serious smack into .357 Mag and Max carbines. I'd count that as great results.

I'll also brag on the plain based version of the 79 grain .25-20 RF. It turns out huge piles of plinking and small game bullets than cost near nothing. I had no trouble getting 50 yard squirrel accuracy out of it, and that's all it needed.

Accuracy ain't the only goal, folks. It's nice to have, and some level of accuracy is always needed, but we don't all have teeny tiny groups as our main concern.

[StarMetal]

Leftoverdj,

I'm probably the biggest offender of accuracy because I started out doing accuracy with jacketed. Your 2 in goal at 100 yards to me is really pretty good. The only rifles that I wouldn't be happy with that are the ones that are known tack drivers. Most the milsurps that would be very good. I've certainly been pleasantly surprised with alot of milsurps that shot much better then that.

All in all I go along with your train of thought. Like I've said countless times before there's too much rocket science here then need. We know about being is shooting competition with other, but when we engage in shooting competition with ourselves, well, then shooting, casting, and reloading isn't fun anymore. Don't others take that wrong in that I'm saying not to strive to make your bullets, equipment, and shooting better.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

Good thread--Bass brought up some good points to ponder, and follow-on posts expand those thoughts well. Newer casting shooters need to see this sort of discussion, it isn't always "success at first attempt" in this game. And, someone else's standards aren't the place a shooter needs to set his/her sights, either.

[Leftoverdj]

It's hard to post personal satisfaction. To my way of thinking, the guys getting 3-4 MOA from lever carbines and milsurp with stock sights have much to be satisfied with. I know I can't do it. Been 20 years since my eyes could cope with Mauser sights.

One guy who could be a model to us all is Junior, who posts here and puts up articles on his webzine. His love for what he does shows in every article, and what he does is to have a whole lot of fun on a shoestring budget. There's a place for guys who win benchrest matches and there's a place for guys who turn SKSs into hog rifles.

[StarMetal]

Yeah, Junior's article are just plain darn fun to read. He asked me alot of quetions about my Yugo SKS. I was worried when he bought one that he wouldn't be satisfied with it, but he was and I'm happy. If Junior wasn't on a shoestring budget I believe the rifle for him would be an AR15 in 50 Beowulf for hogs, but as it is he's done well with that SKS.

Joe

[Leftoverdj]

The woodshunters missed out when the 9mm Win Mag was stillborn. There were plans to put it in an M-1 Carbine, and the carbine maker went belly up at the same time. With 180 grain cast at about 1700 fps, that would have been just what Junior is looking for.

[Bass Ackward]

It's hard to post personal satisfaction.

One guy who could be a model to us all is Junior, who posts here and puts up articles on his webzine.


Lefty,

You don't need to defend your position. I am trying to get people to post all sides so everyone can understand exactly why little information comes out about some of these molds.

Some people get in on group buys wanting better results than they have been getting up to the present with what ever they have. Maybe they see old timers jump on a particular buy believing it offers "something special". When their results come up short of expectations, they often wait for a report from someone else to offer confidence in the design and maybe suggestions for them to try.

Once they read all of this, maybe they will understand. And maybe they will be less .... apprehensive about starting a thread and asking questions if they understand they are waiting on a train that might not be coming.

And maybe they will be more definitive in what they want. Everyone always asks for a "good" load. Maybe they should ask for a load that does 2" at 50 yards or what ever they want. Some guy may be sitting on a method that produces 2" at 50 yards feeling embarrassed to post it. As David said he felt.

Without standards, you have to be specific in what you ask.

[Bret4207]

I've done some work with the Fat 30, BD45, 8MM Karabiner, Buckshots 8mm, and the Bator 358x250gr. I've had good sucess with the Fat 30 and 8mm Karabiner- under 1" at 50 yards if my eyes work that day. Rifles were a 7.65 model 91 Argentine Mauser and one of the '48 Yugo Mausers. Darn good in my book. The 45 BD works great in every 45 I've tried. Round 2-3" groups at 25 yards, agian my eye sight is getting poor for that type of thing. I may have to resort to actually feeling my way to the eye Doc some day and do something about it.

I know I've used othe GB moulds but my record keeping is less than it should be. The 358x180 RF I got is also a good one come to think of it. The Lee Soup Can also performs well out to 75 yards at least in the 30WCF, 303 Savage and one of my 32/20's. IIRC the othe 32/20 hates it.

So what does all this get us? What is good enough for me may be useless to someone else. I expect my small game rifles ( I'm mainly a small game and varmint guy) to shoot within 1.5" at 50 yards with a useable trajectory. That more or less means at least 1400FPS and under 2000 fps for lead. My bigger bore guns I need under 3" at 100 yards and want between 1600-2000 fps. 1600 is fine with a heavy bullet ( 200+ grains) under 100 yards. I'm not a big deer hunter, so the bigger guns like the 35 Whelen or 308 Win are more "pot luck" and target guns with lead. Handguns I want round groups as I just can't do precision work over 25 yards anymore, not with what I know anyways. I may figure a way to work around it someday. Velocity is under flame thrower standards. A 44 250 gr boolit at 900fps is gonna kill what ever I hit. I know I can trust my M19 and 13.5 gr 2400 with the 358156 to give me a nice round 2.5-3" group at 25 yards, sometimes even at 50 yards. Thats minute of coyote for me and works well. With my scoped Ruger 32 Mag I can cut that group in half, and that scope is an old Bushnell Phantom 1.3X, so it the eyes.

I'd think a lot of us buy the moulds and set them aside for when we get the time to cast and load. I mentioned a while back I must have 15-18 GB moulds, yet I've only wrung out a few. Maybe the lack of reports is a simple matter of guys getting time to play with them.

[45 2.1]

One on one is better when trying to help someone. Like what has been already said, folks feel embarassed to say they can't do something and really don't explain whats wrong to the degree that we need to help them. People need to understand how to get a boolit to fit their gun and realize that the alloy needs to match their load. That isn't rocket science either.

[MGySgt]

I for one am gun shy of posting results from GB or other test I have been running. I did one lude and got my head handed to me and had to defend why the test was run the way it was.

My accuracy standards are sometimes beyond reason. I have a few of my favorites that like to group real well and are realitive easy to get 1.5 in at 100. Two are Repro Sharps and 2 are Marlins. These 4 rifles cause me more trouble when I start with a new design, because I know they are more capable then then what I get and I get frustrated with them. I have a 450 gr that should shoot real good, but I am having problems getting it to shoot, so I put it on the shelf until I get some time to work with it.

The RD .460 360GC shows great promise and I did post that in the Casters Log for that bullet. I had to stop working with it because Oct and CO Elk season is getting mighty close and I have to spend time with my 1866 Sharps 45/90. I do have a good load with it at 1640 and sub 2in that I would use for deer, bear or hog. But I am not going to use that on Elk. I think it is too light, probably not, but I don't have confidence in it like I do my 430GC out of my Sharps.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Drew

[JSH]

I will post up a bit here. I am fairly new at this, but have learned a lot from this board and am exceptionally pleased with the results. I have yet to have a mould that will not shoot to my standards, I may just be lucky. My standards may fall above or below others here.
The #1 thing I do still falls back to the KISS theory. Follow the basics then wring it out after that.
As to the GB 6 bangers. I have two in my hand now and 2 more on the way list.
The first one was I believe thefirst go at the 35-180-GC. It was a couple of years ago. It has shot very well for me in every thing I have tried it in. The second was the 155 Harris 30 cal from last year. I had never tried this one at all. Everyone talked it up on how well it worked in a variety of guns. All I can say is they were telling the truth. I have used it in several calibers, 30-20 to the 30-06 with good results. I even gave it a try in a 300WM for a few rounds.
My one comment on the 6 bangers is that I spend more time shooting than casting now. A 2C is almost a handicap on production. This past Sat. I used a couple of 2C a 4C and one 6 C. I still ended up with way more from the 6 than I had planned. The bullet design from the 2 and 4C I use for plinking and pour from the lower half of the pot with them.
I am really suprised that Lee doesn't offer more styles in a 6C mould. You would think all the traffic through there from just here would turn on a light?
Jeff

[nighthunter]

I have 2 group buy molds. The first is a left over 314-120 from Willbird. It shoots very well in 2 different .30 carbine Ruger Blackhawks. The second is the 358-180 group buy done by 357Max. This particular bullet is a fabulous performer. With 12.5 gr WC820(N) it eats the center out of the target at 25 yards. At 50 yards it will shoot consistently into 2 1/2 inches which is plenty good for these ageing eyes and open sights. The load listed is with 2 different 357 Mags. The first is a Colt Python I purchased in the early 70's and the second is a Taurus I purchased about 2 years ago. The bullet is the best I have shot in 357's.
I plan to try it in my 35 Rem. Contender real soon. I will post the results.
One more thing .... Some one bad mouthed the 358-180 group buy mold in a post on that thread. He said something about spending his money on a mold from another source instead of casting plinking bullets with the group buy mold. All I have to say to him is that a couple of folks are sorry they missed the group buy and would most likely take it off his hands.
Nighthunter

[Char-Gar]

I guess everybody has there own accuracy standards. I don't post loads and groups that don't come up to snuff... I might mention I tried this or that and it was unsatisfactory, but leave it at there.

Any rifle and load that won't do 3 MOA will be sold down river. Even a rattle trap lever gun should do this, if the rounds are singled loaded into the chamber and the barrel not be allowed to heat up.

I would expect any bolt gun, that has been properly bedded and has decent sights to produce 2 MOA.

A good commercial rifle, and a number of military rifles will shoot base 1.5 MOA without breaking a sweat.

Rifles that will do 1 MOA are a true delight and I have severall that will do this and even down to .5 MOA on occasion.

I am talking bullets that are not scaled, just a good eyeball and normal loading techniques. I am also talking about day in day out grouping and not just the occasional great target.

These are my standards, and I don't find them hard to reach..not hard to reach at all.

I have several of the group buy molds and there are several that have yet to cast a bullet. However 311407 Mod and Fatter 30 will each do their part and produce all the accuracy (according to my standards) the rifle has to give, if the proper loads are assembled.

[JohnH]

I've only had one GB mold, and I had awful results with the 360-180-RF in the 357 Max I had, and posted as such on more than one occasion. As things turned, that barrel wouldn't shoot anything with that shape worth beans. It did however shoot the RCBS 35-200 very well.

I was interested for a time in the 38 GB rifle mold of the recent past, but it became a gas check design in which I've little interest. I odnt own any revolvers or pistols these days, so that leaves me out of a lot of group buys.

About 2 years ago, I bought a Lee 312-185 and the nose was undersize. I sent it back, and they made good on it, returning to me a mold that cast a nose of .300 and it has served my 30 cal needs quite well. No 30 cal GB has come up at a time when I had money for a new mold either, so I keep using what I got.

I think there are a couple things that go on with GB molds here. The board has a reputation of having very experienced cast boolit makers and shooters, and I think there is prolly some intimidation factor involved when someone new to the game gets a mold and begins casting. Perhaps some don't want to appear foolish. I can't say I've had that problem, ya'll are guys that show up on my computer screen, I can turn you on or off at will, I could really care less what you think of my groups or my casting tribulations. I do appreciate the knowledge available here and those who have lent a helping hand, it has made me a better caster and shooter. As much it has also made me think better of the knowledge I came here with. So showing my ignorance has only benefited me.

Another thing I believe goes on is that there is at least a appearance of great genius that goes into the GB molds, surely the boolits must shoot, so if someone doesn't get good results, I doubt they're gonna post about it for fear of looking silly, but the problem here is that what a gun needs to shoot cast well is as critical as having a well designed boolit. I've had several Ruger Blackhawks that would shoot cast from the get go, I've also had several M77's that wouldn't throw a cast boolit in a straight line if you pushed it out the bore with a cleaning rod. On the other hand I recently worked with a Remington Model 7 in 7-08 that it seemed one couldn't do anything wrong with. Yet look at the trials I've been through with my Encore. Diagnosing why a boolit ain't shooting is at once easy but no simple matter, and once again I believe folks are concerned enough about appearances that it keeps some from asking for the very help they may need. It also don't help when you see posters you respect slammed for a thread they post telling of their cast boolit adventures, GB molds and otherwise.

As well, just because someone ain't talking about it here, don't mean they ain't talking about it with their shootin' buddy(s). I'm sure there are those that show up for a group buy (s), read the threads they feel are relevant to their shooting and needs and could care less about reporting results, they are happy doing their own thing and so it should be.

I shoot for my own satisfaction. I post here because it is a group of like minded fellas, amd all my shooting buddies are long distance. I shoot in my back yard, ya'll are my shooting buddies most days. But I've no trouble saying that come hunting season this year I'm gonna stick Hornady 220's in the 375, 'cause it will group 'em like a house afire, and if I'm gonna kill something I want all the confidence in the load I can have. I've no question my cast load will do the job, but the deer I'm gonna whack deserves my best. That's why last year I wasn't satisfied with the accuracy I was getting from my 357 Max and the GB 360-180-RF, and if the RCBS 35-200 hadn't shot as well as it did, I'd have loaded it with Hornady XTP 180's.

I think I may have got a bit off track, sorry about that.

[steveb]

I think there are a couple things that go on with GB molds here. The board has a reputation of having very experienced cast boolit makers and shooters, and I think there is prolly some intimidation factor involved when someone new to the game gets a mold and begins casting. Perhaps some don't want to appear foolish. I can't say I've had that problem, ya'll are guys that show up on my computer screen, I can turn you on or off at will, I could really care less what you think of my groups or my casting tribulations. I do appreciate the knowledge available here and those who have lent a helping hand, it has made me a better caster and shooter. As much it has also made me think better of the knowledge I came here with. So showing my ignorance has only benefited me.





Gentleman, I'm a fairly new member here but this is for all those that dont post results or questions they may have. Please do not feel intimidated or ignorant or silly to post questions or results you have. You have to start somewhere! Post away! I have gathered much info since being here. Thanks fellas!:castmine:

[David R]

OK, here is the 311407 ahead of 13.5 of Promo. Gun is an Iron sighted 1917 enfield in 30'06.

I can't find the 300 yard 5" target, its on the website some how, but I don't know how to bring it back.

To ME this is a fine target and a simple, cheap load to blast away all day. This is the best target I have fired from this gun. I think its the best my eyes can do.

My 308 will shoot just over an inch at 100 yards with a 311644. 22-250 will do the same with a Lyman 225646.

David

[Bass Ackward]

This is the best target I have fired from this gun. I think its the best my eyes can do. David


David,

I see what you mean. And for someone not understanding of what you are looking at, I could see where criticism might have been leveled. That would be good for me with a round target unless I included a horizontal bar at 6 oclock.

When you work up your loads with opens, what kind of a target do you use?

I have trouble with round for precision shooting. See my propensity is to roll the gun a little especially if I am concentrating and have been shooting for awhile. Even with a scope. So if I don't have a bubble for level in the scope, I shoot at a diamond shape. With opens, the shooting results from rolling get thrown in with the open sights / vision thing attitude. Some intrepret this as trigger control.

Different open sights may require a different shape, but I almost always settle on something with a horizontal border or boundary so I can maintain perspective. It doesn't have to be perfectly horizontal, just offer the same sight picture for each shot. Even those military 25 meter, head & shoulders work for me on out.

From guys that I have seen shoot, most people improve their groups with targets that they personally can relate to, either scoped or open. Sometimes to a degree that it shocks them. Very seldom is round the best choice for grouping.

[45 2.1]

Very seldom is round the best choice for grouping.

A lot of records were set on round targets, so i'd have to disagree with you. The trick is to know how to use them. Harry Pope and Harvey Donaldson wrote that particular thing down for posterity too. Set the round target on top of a bead (so it makes a figure 8) or a post that is as wide or slightly wider than the round target. I sure don't lose elevation or windage doing it that way either. If you cant your rifle, then don't and work on your form a lot more so it doesn't mess you up. I works very well as i've shot many long range targets that you would be very happy to have shot with an accurate scoped rifle. Thanks to Harry and Harvey for telling me how to do it.

BTW, here is a Table of Contents that reflects what I help guys with to shoot better, not what I outlined, but what they list from what i've told them.
Bullet Fit
Alloy
Casting Technique
Lube
Powder
Powder Charge
Case Prep
Bench Technique
Target Style

[felix]

Bob, you might say that Bench Technique is equally important as boolit fit. The boolit-fit is to the gun, as is the gun-fit to the person. This implies a consistent recoil pattern upon every shot is mandatory. BR guns cheat big time in that they are made with a 3 inch flat to ride the bags, and provide a consistent (mechanical only) sight picture for a shot. ... felix

[45 2.1]

Bob, you might say that Bench Technique is equally important as boolit fit. The boolit-fit is to the gun, as is the gun-fit to the person. This implies a consistent recoil pattern upon every shot is mandatory. BR guns cheat big time in that they are made with a 3 inch flat to ride the bags, and provide a consistent (mechanical only) sight picture for a shot. ... felix

Felix-
I look at it this way, if you don't have boolit fit and the accuracy that goes with it, then bench technique, if adequate, will only tell you that you haven't got the accuracy. If you have the accuracy, then you can improve your bench technique. A lot of the time a fellow has had the accuracy and not known it too, but with bench technique modification, the accuracy became apparent. A lot of dependent factors involved.

[357maximum]

[QUOTE=JohnH;105917]I've only had one GB mold, and I had awful results with the 360-180-RF in the 357 Max I had, and posted as such on more than one occasion. As things turned, that barrel wouldn't shoot anything with that shape worth beans. It did however shoot the RCBS 35-200 very well.

JohnH,, I have a few questions for you. 1. What alloy were you using? 2. What loads were you using, and how fast(actual if you know) were you pushing them? 3. What gun were you using them in? Let me know everything you tried...if you would please.


Enquiring minds want to know.

[Bass Ackward]

A lot of records were set on round targets, so i'd have to disagree with you.

Bob,

OK. Here is your chance. Name one world record shot with a 1917 Enfield with a round target and I will stand in awe?

Many people shoot at targets to hit the target. The resulting hits may be in a group. You can shoot at a plain piece of paper if it is far enough out. You have to have what you need at the range YOU need it. If that is round, then you support the manufacturer of those targets. He will be happy. I can't and group my best.

[45 2.1]

OK. Here is your chance. Name one world record shot with a 1917 Enfield with a round target and I will stand in awe?
I don't really think these rifles were used in competition since they were a stopgap rifle in WW1.

Many people shoot at targets to hit the target. The resulting hits may be in a group. You can shoot at a plain piece of paper if it is far enough out. You have to have what you need at the range YOU need it. If that is round, then you support the manufacturer of those targets. He will be happy. I can't and group my best.
Make your own, I have numerous ones cut out of sign blank aluminum to spray paint any number I need at the size I need. You could do the same.

[StarMetal]

The U.S. Model 1917 rifle was used in the National Trophy Matches of 1918. It didn't do as well as the 1903 rifle for one reason, it's sights. The 1917 rear sight is not adjustable for windage as is the 1903. Another thing, although the 1917 has a better sight system for the battlefield, they are not conductive to accurate target shooting. At the end of WWI there were way more 1917 service rifles in stock then the 1903. There was an ordance meeting held as to which rifle would be selected as the standard military rifle. The biggest factor that shot down the 1917 was again the non windage adjustable rear sight.

Joe

[JohnH]

357 Maximum,

Iused quite a few loads, mostly I was using 1680 in charge weights from 21 to 26 grains, but I tried everything from Unique to 2400 to H110 I also spent some time with Blue Dot and a milsurp #197 from Jeff Bartlett. Velocities were anything from 1000-1900 fps. I rarely got grouops, mostly patterns. Some of the patterns were decent, 2 shots in one hole, 2 shots in another usually seperated by 2 or so inches, shot #5 (although it could have been any shot in the string from 1 to 5) would be anything from between the two holes to 3" around them somewhere. By not shooting worth a darn I mean this, there was no predictability to where the first three shots in a string were goin to go in relation to one another. I didn't fire just a few groups either, I fired several hundreds of rounds over a3 to 4 month period. I shot that boolit everyday it wasn't raining, and I couldn't get the same thing out of it twice. I also tried the RCBS silhoutte boolit, and got very similar results. Lee makes a plain base 158 grainer that wouldn't shoot for beans either, even at velocities of 1000 fps and less. I tried every primer type that would fit in the pocket, small pistol, small pistol magnum, small rifle and even small rifle magnum. Nothing helped.

The rifle was an NEF Handi rifle, with 8 groooves, .003" land height a .356 groove diameter. The thing shot jacketed very well, the Hornady 180 XTP would shoot into 1.5" at 100 yards monotonusly. It shot the RCBS 35-200 into 2" at 100 yards with the same boring regularity. I finally ditched the rifle after replacing the firing pin and the hammer/main spring, only to have the hammer/main spring go weak again after only six months. I'll never have another NEF either, but that is a different story.

the alloys ran from 20-1 to WW, to water droped WW to heat treated WW to Linotype. I simply wasn't going to use my monotype after all those didn't do the trick. Funny thing was that the RCBS 35-200 shot to perfection with 20-1 even at 1700-1800 fps and Felix Lube. The load was 22.5 grains of Hodgdon 4198 and a small rifle primer.

I have 358, 359 and 360 sizing dies and tried them all. In the end the 358 sizer and the RCBS 35-200 worked.

The barrel was originally a 357 Magnum that I reamed to 357 Max. The original chamber would accept 360 Dan Wesson cases (1.429-1.439 in length) One user of those barrels reported exellent results with that case, apparantly NEF let out a lot of those barrels with extra long chambers and throats. Would have made life much easier for many if they had marked them as such. I have often, even at the time, if the bullet seat/throat ever really cleaned up properly on the rechamber. Boolits of the 360-180-RF style always took a little extra oomph to get the case seated. this could have easily been a gun problem not a rifle problem and I made comment about it at the time, search my old threads on it, I posted a boatload about it here. Hope that answers your questions, anything else I can do to help let me know,

JohnH

[David R]

I find this all interesting. When I started shooting hand guns, the gunsmith friend told me you can shoot a handgun at long ranges with iron sights if you use a Big target. I tried it with my 32-20 contender and he was right. As far as round targets, I have been shooting at the bouncing ball for many years. I never tried folding a round target in half, or a diamond. I will give it a shot to see if it improves my groups.

My eyes could be a lot better. I use a merrit miricle optical assistant. Its just an apature that sticks to my glasses. Makes a world of difference for me. My eyes are so bad even after shooting 15 shots with a scope things get blurry. When I shoot bullseye matches, I need to breathe deep before I shoot to get lots of 02 in my blood to help me see. I still use iron sights on my bullseye guns.

The 22-250 and 308 are both scoped. The both will shoot just over an inch at 100 yards. I would like to see how the 308 does at 300. I already know how the 22-250 does. I will find out when work slows down.

I have read of different targets for irons. I can shoot silly wets off hand quite well with this same gun. I nailed 10 rams in a row at 100 yards. Group size isn't everything. This group buy boolit and load works for me in this gun.

My 38 will shoot teeny groups with the 359429 and 3.5 grains of WW 231. I ordered the group buy mold and we will see if it shoots the same as the one from a lyman mold. If it does, It will be heaven again for me. Lots of boolits, a little powder and good accuracy.

El Cheapo
David

[C1PNR]

Something I haven't heard mentioned in a long time is the "Canadian Half Bull" target. All it was is a round bullseye with the bottom half in the same color as the background. The scoring rings the same as the full round target.

Just means you get a flat bottom to the black to help align the front post. More of a "POA = POI" rather than hitting 6", or whatever, above POA.

For cheap targets I use a 2 lb coffee can with the bottom cut out put over a plain sheet of typing paper and spray painted with flat black paint. It's ~ 5" diameter and easy to see from quite a ways out.

I even save junk mail printed on only one side of white paper, just to do my part for the environment.

If I really want to save the target, it's an easy thing to 3 hole punch it and put it in my hand loading binder.

[357maximum]

357 Maximum,

Iused quite a few loads, mostly I was using 1680 in charge weights from 21 to 26 grains, but I tried everything from Unique to 2400 to H110 I also spent some time with Blue Dot and a milsurp #197 from Jeff Bartlett. Velocities were anything from 1000-1900 fps. I rarely got grouops, mostly patterns. Some of the patterns were decent, 2 shots in one hole, 2 shots in another usually seperated by 2 or so inches, shot #5 (although it could have been any shot in the string from 1 to 5) would be anything from between the two holes to 3" around them somewhere. By not shooting worth a darn I mean this, there was no predictability to where the first three shots in a string were goin to go in relation to one another. I didn't fire just a few groups either, I fired several hundreds of rounds over a3 to 4 month period. I shot that boolit everyday it wasn't raining, and I couldn't get the same thing out of it twice. I also tried the RCBS silhoutte boolit, and got very similar results. Lee makes a plain base 158 grainer that wouldn't shoot for beans either, even at velocities of 1000 fps and less. I tried every primer type that would fit in the pocket, small pistol, small pistol magnum, small rifle and even small rifle magnum. Nothing helped.

I've had similar results, with 1680, and with really hard or really soft alloys. When I tried either H4227, H LilGun. or Vhit N-120 things got better, but not good enough for my standards, and what I am used to. Now when I switched to a softer/tougher alloy things got substantially better, My savior ended up being an alloy thing. The 50/50 ww/Pure lead/ water quenched alloy at 21 BHN at 1 week saved my groups. It was a night and day difference. I went from 1.1 to 1.5 to 3 inch varying group/pattern targets as you have described to sub 1inch 100 yard groups. I had this harder is better thing stuck in my brain, and even though the softish boolits Jeff sent me should have made me go AHA when they worked,,, somehow it got by me. But then I was told about the 50/50 mix and things turned around and it finally clicked. The reason I had success with my LNFP boolits from the mountain man early on with harder alloy is that they "FIT" just like your 200 grainers obviously did. The Lee boolit is no where near as good a fit in my gun and relies on obturation with a mallable yet tough alloy to make it "fit" upon ignition. It all came together, and even though you have sold the gun, I just thought that I would share, how I got my lee's to shoot for me,, with alot of help from our resident mad boolit designer.,,thanks again ,,BOB

The rifle was an NEF Handi rifle, with 8 groooves, .003" land height a .356 groove diameter. The thing shot jacketed very well, the Hornady 180 XTP would shoot into 1.5" at 100 yards monotonusly. It shot the RCBS 35-200 into 2" at 100 yards with the same boring regularity. I finally ditched the rifle after replacing the firing pin and the hammer/main spring, only to have the hammer/main spring go weak again after only six months. I'll never have another NEF either, but that is a different story.

Personally I wish you still had it for sale, I like them cheap little handi rifles,,in sane calibers, of course. And with a little time and effort they have always served me well. Never had a spring issue though.

the alloys ran from 20-1 to WW, to water droped WW to heat treated WW to Linotype. I simply wasn't going to use my monotype after all those didn't do the trick. Funny thing was that the RCBS 35-200 shot to perfection with 20-1 even at 1700-1800 fps and Felix Lube. The load was 22.5 grains of Hodgdon 4198 and a small rifle primer.

I have 358, 359 and 360 sizing dies and tried them all. In the end the 358 sizer and the RCBS 35-200 worked.

The barrel was originally a 357 Magnum that I reamed to 357 Max. The original chamber would accept 360 Dan Wesson cases (1.429-1.439 in length) One user of those barrels reported exellent results with that case, apparantly NEF let out a lot of those barrels with extra long chambers and throats. Would have made life much easier for many if they had marked them as such.

A pounded soft lead chamber slug, would have shown you that. I will never setup an iron for cast again without doing this first.

I have often, even at the time, if the bullet seat/throat ever really cleaned up properly on the rechamber. Boolits of the 360-180-RF style always took a little extra oomph to get the case seated. this could have easily been a gun problem not a rifle problem and I made comment about it at the time, search my old threads on it, I posted a boatload about it here. Hope that answers your questions, anything else I can do to help let me know,

I will go back through them, it is amazing that you can learn just as much if not more from what DO NOT work for others, as what DO work for others. Thanks for your Time
Michael

JohnH

The Rest Of the Story
I personally would like to see an area titled "GROSS FAILURES" it would let us all help each other, just as much as the successes, and it would take away some of that "I am afraid to post my stuff" issue. I too admit to not posting something from time to time, that I have thought about posting, for simple disbelief, shame and turmoil factors. I have also not PUBLICLY asked for help when I maybe should have for similar reasons as the above posts.

I have a buddy that did not realize cast boolits are different when I gave him some for his 35/06 and has done some astonishing things with them, simply because he did not know any better. The reason being is that the boolits I gave him simply were a Perfect MATCH, both in shape and in alloy to his abusive loadings.
Michael