.32 CF rifle

[shaggist]

For those interested in a rifle in .32 CF, look at the Winchester Model 37 .410 shotgun that was made back in the day. You can find them on Gunbroker ranging from $225 on up. Putting a liner in this barrel should be very easy and the ejector/extractor mechanism should work well, even if it needs a little modification. It is a handsome little shottygun and cocks with an exposed hammer. The one that I have has a walnut stock(nothing fancy) and is made out of steel, not cast iron. Let me know what you think, as I haven't done it - YET. Double click on the picture to enlarge it. This is NOT my gun, as mine is in MUCH better condition, but you get the picture.

[EMC45]

Good point. Around my area you can find Topper .410s for about 60-80 bucks. Neat idea! I have one, but it is for the kids.

[shaggist]

You need to be cautious about using the H&R Topper platform for a CF rifle. The SB1 shotgun receiver is not made for rifle cartridge pressures. Their rifle receivers are designated SB2 and are made of a stronger metal than the SB1s. Greybeard Outdoors is the place to go for info about this. The Winchester barrel is stamped 'steelbilt' on some of these guns and the receiver is quited obviously steel. I wouldn't try anything more than a .32 rook cartridge of some sort(.32 S&W, .32 S&W Long., .32 Colt, etc.).

[Molly]

Shaggist, like I said, I'd ship it off to Taylor Machine (john Taylor) for relining in a heartbeat! In fact, I'd think about asking him for an extra barrels in 32-20. The type of metal in an action isn't as important as what it was designed to handle. I've seen aluminum receivers! Your steel receiver could handle 12 guage loads, which have a lot more backthrust than you might realize. It won't even notice something like a 32-20.
Molly

[shaggist]

Molly,
Thanks for all the information. I know my 37 is strong and I wouldn't hesitate to turn IT into a rifle. I just wanted to make sure that everyone understood, that not all break-top, inexpensive shotguns are capable of being used for conversions to rook rifles. It would be just my luck in today's legally-oriented society, to make an unguarded statement like that and some fool/idiot would chamber it for some God-awful, high pressure, CF cartridge, blow it up, and sue ME for being stupid. I'll check with John about the conversion.
Shaggist

[Bret4207]

Sorry, but the little 37's in 410 around here will bring an easy $350-400.00. Wonderful cottontail medicine and a fine piece of equipment.

I'd be far more inclined to use an H+R.

[shaggist]

Just so long as the correct H&R receiver is used, there's no problem. The SB1s are shotguns only, and not strong enough for rifles. The SB2s are the rifle receiver to use, but with the popularity of the H&R/NEF SB2s as the basis for a multi-barrel, single receiver collection, they are also expensive. Greybeard Outdoors has a contingent of members who are rabid, with reason, about these Handi-Rifles. They buy, sell, and trade barrels and receivers like nothing I have ever seen.

[geargnasher]

I have a model 37, my first shotgun and the first gun I bought with my own money (9 yrs old). Fine little meatgetter.

I'm wondering if you guys are talking about a removable liner, or a permanent one? I'd sure be interested in getting a rifled liner in .22 Hornet for this one if it will handle the pressures.

Gear

[Molly]

I'm wondering if you guys are talking about a removable liner, or a permanent one? I'd sure be interested in getting a rifled liner in .22 Hornet for this one if it will handle the pressures.
Gear

Well, a permanent, full length liner is what I had in mind, and I think the same is true of the rest of us too. But in principle, there's no real reason that a removable liner can't be made. Think of the Savage "Four-tenner" insert for shotguns. I've heard of turning out things like that on a lathe that have rubber O-rings at both ends to center them in the shotgun bore, and prevent scratching the shotgun barrel during installing or removing. I've heard of such liners for everything from .22 LR to 30-30, and suspect that bigger rounds could be used if necessary. Your Hornet idea wouldn't have the slightest problem. Barrel length is arbitrary, and can be made anything you want to have.

Now for the bad news. I guess such rifled liners might be OK for very close work, but they don't have the rigidity of an action-mounted barrel, and for that reason, they don't have the accuracy either. Not that the sighting equipment of shotguns will generally bring out the best accuracy anyhow. So you might want to think about what you would want or expect from your Hornet liner. If you DO decide to try this, you migh also want to think about how you're going to keep it in position in the bore, so the extractor of the shotgun barrel will reliably operate the extractor of the rifle barrel. Might be easier to just have separate ejectors made up, and install the proper ejector every time you install or remove the liner.

If I get a 410 lined, it will have a full length, permanent liner, and it will be provided with iron rifle sights at the very minimum, and (much more likely) get drilled and tapped for rifle scope mounts. In effect, it will be much like a Savage 219 rifle, but with the chambering I want.

[NoZombies]

I've always wanted, and one day will have a double barrel SXS .410 shotgun built on an appropriately small frame converted to have one barrel in .32 S&W long and the other left 410. I'd have an express sight with leaves regulated for 35 50 and 75 yards, and I reckon it would be the bee's knees for small game work with small calibers.

[Molly]

I've always wanted, and one day will have a double barrel SXS .410 shotgun built on an appropriately small frame converted to have one barrel in .32 S&W long and the other left 410. I'd have an express sight with leaves regulated for 35 50 and 75 yards, and I reckon it would be the bee's knees for small game work with small calibers.

I really hate to put temptation in your way like this, because I KNOW you have uses for your money (BG), but there's a sweet little 410 SXS on a miniature action right now on GunBroker.com.

Tell your fiancé that the devil made me do it. (VBG)

Molly

[NoZombies]

I really hate to put temptation in your way like this, because I KNOW you have uses for your money (BG), but there's a sweet little 410 SXS on a miniature action right now on GunBroker.com.

Tell your fiancé that the devil made me do it. (VBG)

Molly

Thanks... jerk ;)

I'll be a good boy and wait for the right time on that...

But you've got to admit, it's a pretty neat idea, and if you get the one you mentioned... then I could live vicariously through you as you completed the project.... :bigsmyl2:

[Molly]

>Thanks... jerk ;)

Ah, recognition in my own time. (VBG)

>But you've got to admit, it's a pretty neat idea, and if you get the one you mentioned... then I could live vicariously through you as you completed the project.... :bigsmyl2:

Yeah, it IS a neat idea. It'd sure be hard to beat for an all-around squirrel gun: Use the 410 barrel in the early season while the leaves are still on, and the .32 barrel in the late season, when you can get a good look at them. But I'll stick with the one barrel version, if and when I can get one made up.

later,
Molly

[2Tite]

I used the Topper shotguns on at least five occasions. (3) 32 H&R magnums using bullets up to and including 170 gr. Best accuracy was with the 311241 at 1100 fps. (1) 357 magnum and another in 32 S&W long. Thousands of rounds later I can say no problems ever. Well, there was the time I overloaded the 357 and had sticky extraction. The only problem with the Topper is that it turns out a little heavier than you really want because of the size of the receiver.

[Molly]

I used the Topper shotguns on at least five occasions. (3) 32 H&R magnums using bullets up to and including 170 gr. Best accuracy was with the 311241 at 1100 fps. (1) 357 magnum and another in 32 S&W long. Thousands of rounds later I can say no problems ever. Well, there was the time I overloaded the 357 and had sticky extraction. The only problem with the Topper is that it turns out a little heavier than you really want because of the size of the receiver.

Oh, man! Do I want to pick YOUR brain! I've given considerable thought to trying 311291 when I get mine back from John Taylor. He's making me a .32 based on a Savage 410. I'd sure appreciate getting a gander at your load results to get me started off right!

[felix]

Without checking, I think the 32 rimmed cartridges will be perfect for a 222/3 action just about as is. ... felix

[Molly]

Without checking, I think the 32 rimmed cartridges will be perfect for a 222/3 action just about as is. ... felix

Yeah, I think the 32 bodies can be necked down to duplicate the 222 or 223 cartridge contours in a rimmed form, but I don't know which 32 case will give the .222R and which will give the .223R. You could look it up in a table of case lengths easily enough. But that is a trifle off topic.

[felix]

No, Molly, talking about using an existing action and installing a 32 barrel. Maybe even a switch barrel is possible without action modification. ... felix

[Molly]

No, Molly, talking about using an existing action and installing a 32 barrel. Maybe even a switch barrel is possible without action modification. ... felix

Sorry, I didn't quite get that from your posting. But there are a lot of ways to make a switch barrel without modifying the action. For example, take a savage rifle in .308. Loosen the locking ring, and you can put on a barrel for most any round based on the .308 case. Or you can add a locking ring to an action never designed for it. I've got a 3 barrel Martini Cadet that works that way. No reason you couldn't do it with a mauser action either. It's just a jam nut to lock the barrel in place.

But I have a feeling this isn't were you were going either. I can't quite fit making rimmed cases for the .222 family into this, because of the rather extensive modifications that would be needed for feeding, extraction and ejection. Or maybe I'm just being dense.

[felix]

Yeah, it is, Molly. My mistake was once was NOT getting a couple of 221 Fireball pistols when a dealer said he could not sell them. Me being a loyal customer, I could have had them at below his cost if purchased right then when he was cleaning his inventory of loss leaders. I visualize a 32 pistol round as being ideal for a back yard reloadable pop gun. ... felix

[Molly]

...I visualize a 32 pistol round as being ideal for a back yard reloadable pop gun. ... felix

Yeah, it is that too! I plan on using mine for small game, but also teaching the kids to reload. I once taught a youngster (about 8 years old) the mechanics of reloading in a slow afternoon. I set the powder measure, but he did everything else, and then we stepped outside and let him shoot his own ammo in his grandpa's old pistol. The kid glowed so much we had to turn down the lights! (VBG)

Youngsters never forget something like that. I taught another kid one day, when some friends of my grandma dropped in to visit for a few hours. I was casting bullets, and he was curious. I showed him what they were for, and let him make and take a dummy (no primer or powder) .357 round with him as a memento, after checking with momma for permission. I didn't expect to hear from him again, and in fact, never did. But about 20 years later, I learned that he had taken over their basement with reloading gear and bullet molds, and was teaching local kids himself.

Ecc 11:1 Put out your bread on the face of the waters; for after a long time it will come back to you again.

[excess650]

Your thread here has me considering relining my Stevens 44 to 32 H&R mag or 32-20. It had already been converted to CF, and rebored/rechambered to 38Spl. If I can't get it to group better than it does, it might get a liner!

I know of another "project gun" that just needs finishing. Its a Winchester Lowall in 22 K-Hornet in the white and with new stocks. I don't remember if he told me $400 or $600.:popcorn:

[Molly]

Your thread here has me considering relining my Stevens 44 to 32 H&R mag or 32-20. It had already been converted to CF, and rebored/rechambered to 38Spl. If I can't get it to group better than it does, it might get a liner! :popcorn:

Well, my totally unsolicited advice would be to put a 1-in-16 liner in it, and chamber it for the .32 Long. That way, you would be set to successively chamber it for the .32 H&R Mag, the .327 mag and even the 32-20 until you found the accuracy and power level you want. The 'officially correct' twist for the .32 Long is 1 in 18.75, which is close enough to the 1-16 to make no never mind, and will let you use somewhat heavier than normal bullets if you want. And 1-16 IS the 'officially correct' twist for the 32-20.

That said, I have to confess that I'm putting a 1-12 twist liner in mine. That's because I know the 12 inch twist can still deliver fine accuracy with low velocity cast bullets of all weights from my '06's and 30-40, even though it may be technically overstabilizing the very light slugs. But I'm curious about loading heavy bullets in the .32 Long and .32 H&R, so the faster twist will be more appropriate for that use.

And I'm not getting it chambered for the .32 Long either, though that's what I advised you: I'm getting it for the .32 H&R, because I have a .32 H&R revolver that will be a companion piece for it, and I can load to duplicate the .32 Long easily enough. I did some serious skull sweating though: I very nearly had the revolver rechambered to .32-20, and the rifle chambered to match it. But then reality raised its ugly head, and just in time, I remembered that the original idea was to duplicate .32RF ballistics. Sometimes I can get carried away ... Anyhow, have a ball, and let us know if / when you decide to do the deed.

[excess650]

I have a Marlin 1894CL in 32-20, so have that covered. I don't NEED a 32 H&R Mag rifle, but have a S&W 16 in that caliber, so already have brass, dies, and bullets.

To be honest, I can easily duplicate the 32 L with my 32-20. I worked on some ultralight loads for shooting critters in the backyard without alerting the neighbors. One of the best light loads that I came up with would shoot around 3/4" at 50 yards with a peep sight. Groundhogs don't run away from a Lyman 311008 like they are apt to do from a 22CBL.

[Molly]

>I have a Marlin 1894CL in 32-20, so have that covered.

Lucky you!

>I don't NEED a 32 H&R Mag rifle, but have a S&W 16 in that caliber, so already have brass, dies, and bullets.

Ah! Then we're both in the same boat, aren't we?

>To be honest, I can easily duplicate the 32 L with my 32-20. ... Groundhogs don't run away from a Lyman 311008 like they are apt to do from a 22CBL.

Oh sure. My guess is that something like 2 1/2 to 3 grains of a fast powder like Unique ought to do the trick nicely. How far off am I? (BG) And the 3118 slug is nearly perfect for 32-20 loads. I used to have a S&W M&P in 32-20 before I got stupid and traded it off. 3118 was about perfect in it.

[excess650]

LOL! You're pretty close. IIRC, it was 2gr Solo 1000 or Clays under the Lee 100gr RN.

I really like the 311008 in the 32-20 and in the 32 H&R Mag. I had the RCBS 100gr mini-Keith but found it a new home.

My Stevens 44 was a 32RF with a poor bore, so virtually useless. With the block converted to CF it got a new life. I had a local guy do the rebore, otherwise, it would have been relined. It could have been converted to 22RF as well, but CFs are more fun(work).

[Molly]

LOL! You're pretty close. IIRC, it was 2gr Solo 1000 or Clays under the Lee 100gr RN.

I really like the 311008 in the 32-20 and in the 32 H&R Mag. I had the RCBS 100gr mini-Keith but found it a new home.

My Stevens 44 was a 32RF with a poor bore, so virtually useless. With the block converted to CF it got a new life. I had a local guy do the rebore, otherwise, it would have been relined. It could have been converted to 22RF as well, but CFs are more fun(work).

Nice to know my guesser isn't as senile as the rest of me. (BG) I've got the 100g keith style .32 too, and (at least in my pistol) it shoots notably better than 3118 - which is no slouch!

Your luck with the Stevens 44 was better than my luck usually runs. If a rifle is a near junker because it has a real sewerpipe for a bore, the seller always thinks it's a rare and valuable antique because "it's all original." But if the sewerpipe barrel has been relined or replaced, "it's been restored to new condition at great expense." (LOL)

Molly

[Mk42gunner]

I wouldn't hsve any problems with chambering a Stevens 44 to .32 Long or possibly the H&R Magnum; but I am not too sure about the .327 Federal cartridge.

Weren't these the same basic action that Stevens had problems with when the .22 Hornet came out? You know if it has .327 Federal stamped on the barrel, someone is going to try it with a high pressure factory round eventually.

Lets stay safe folks,

Robert

[excess650]

I recall that Stevens, albeit owned by Savage at the time, did chamber a version of the 44 for 22 Hornet. Apparently it loosend the actions pretty quickly so was discontinued. The CF versions, at least the early ones, had a different hammer that was to keep the block closed. I don't have those parts or one of those actions to compare at the moment.

In that 32 H&R Mag pressures are very similar to 38 Spl +P, the 44 action should handle it quite nicely. I've shot +P level loads in mine (38 Spl) and it seems fine, but don't care to have it disassemble itself. My original intention was to have it chambered with a 357 Max reamer and mark it 38XL, but I found that the longer round wouldn't clear the hammer to load. The thought was to load blackpowder in the longer case. 38 Spl is the better, more prudent choice. It will easily outperform the longer round using smokeless vs BP, and can't accidentally chamber a too high pressure factory round.

Since this is the RF area, I'll again say that my Stevens 44 was orignally a 32RF, but beyond salvaging. It was made useable by converting to CF.






I wouldn't hsve any problems with chambering a Stevens 44 to .32 Long or possibly the H&R Magnum; but I am not too sure about the .327 Federal cartridge.

Weren't these the same basic action that Stevens had problems with when the .22 Hornet came out? You know if it has .327 Federal stamped on the barrel, someone is going to try it with a high pressure factory round eventually.

Lets stay safe folks,

Robert

[45 2.1]

Everyone thinking about this should look into the 310 Martini Cadet rifles. Trim and well made with excellent sights.

[justashooter]

on a related note, i have a remington rider 1893 in 12 gauge that has a factory original 38-55 removable barrel liner. a solid rib and rifle sights have been added, and i am in process of assembling loads to test accuracy potential.

remington offered liners in your specification of chambering and shotgun chambering specifically for the rider, and they can be used in similar shotguns of same barrel length. they are full length, slip in from breach end, and have a threaded muzzle and tapered muzzle nut, with extractor that is activated by the shotgun extractor. they were retailed at $12, about the same price as the shotgun.

the design is simple enough that it could be repeated with just about any factory barrel that is long enough by a decent machinist. fitting a 12 gauge chamber shaped bushing to the barrel's threaded breach, adding a pin aligned extractor, and threading the end of barrel for a tapered muzzle nut is all that would be required. solid rib and express sights added to shotgun barrel would be extra. of course, barrel length is specific to shotgun barrel length they are mated to.

[Molly]

Hi justashooter,

>remington offered liners in your specification of chambering and shotgun chambering specifically for the rider, and they can be used in similar shotguns of same barrel length. they are full length, slip in from breach end, and have a threaded muzzle and tapered muzzle nut, with extractor that is activated by the shotgun extractor. they were retailed at $12, about the same price as the shotgun.

>the design is simple enough that it could be repeated with just about any factory barrel that is long enough by a decent machinist. fitting a 12 gauge chamber shaped bushing to the barrel's threaded breach, adding a pin aligned extractor, and threading the end of barrel for a tapered muzzle nut is all that would be required. solid rib and express sights added to shotgun barrel would be extra. of course, barrel length is specific to shotgun barrel length they are mated to.

You know, I'd quite forgotten about those things, but you're right. And now that my memory has been prompted, there were also some slip-in adaptors offered sometime in the 50's or 60's that were very similar: Rifle tubes in shotguns. You could order just about any combination you wanted, and these weren't sensitive to barrel length: they used O-rings to center the inserts, and (I think) setscrews to hold it in position, so one insert could be used in just about any shotgun of the same gauge but any barrel length. I seem to recall that the inserts were fairly short, perhaps 16 or 18 inches.

(No, these were not the old '410er' inserts offered by Savage. They were something similar, but in rifle calibers from .22 LR up.)

They had a brief fanfare when they were announced, but I didn't hear anything about them after that. I suspect that the typical shotgun front bead didn't offer too much in the way of accuracy, no matter how good the insert might have been.

[justashooter]

i have several 12 gauge chamber inserts made by various manufacturers. 22LR, 38 spcl, and 32 S&W Long. i suppose they were made to allow the one gun farmer to dispatch hogs and steers cleanly and cheaply. none of them are rifled, and they are all about 2 3/4" length.

there is a company in alaska that makes rifle barrel inserts. can't remember the name. the point is, just about any old junk barrel could be turned into a liner by a fellow with a lathe, or less. trouble is, most full power rifle cartridges in big game calibers are too much juice. IIRC the alaskan company makes 223 and 30AK inserts as well as handgun caliber, but nothing more than 1500 foot pounds energy.

a crude calculation of bolt thrust based on base diameter and CUP indicates that a 12K CUP shotshell in 12 gauge makes 5006 PSIA (area of base = pi r squared, bolt thrust = area X CUP, CUP is nearly same as PSI). Same pressure on a 38-55 base is 1661 PSIA, so it looks like we get same bolt thrust at a little over 36K CUP in the 38-55. surely my simple math leaves some factor unknown. but then, base diameter of a 30 AK is .447, while base of a 38-55 is .420, and the 30 AK runs about 48K CUP. ???

IIRC, you can run 255 gr bullets in 38-55 up to 1100 fps with unique at about 12K CUP, and1400 fps with 2400 or 4227 at about 22K CUP. 3031 and 4895 will get same weight to about 1800 FPS with about 35K CUP. 12K CUP is easily safe in low walls. 22K CUP is considered safe in older marlins and high walls, and 35K CUP is considered safe in modern lever guns and high walls. what is the safe limit for a 1902 vintage break action shotgun type? for reference, H&R made 12 ga and 38-55 combos recently:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=204298835