Fast twist Hawken slug size

[dunno.458]

Hi to all. First post here after years of lurking as a guest then a member. Learned mountains, practice some, the time and frustration saved are priceless. Thanks.
I have a Pedersoli Hawken in .50 cal with a 1:28 (from memory) barrel. At the time I purchased the rifle I back bordered the recomended Pedersoli mold, USA 318-500. In the meantime I got shooting with LEE's R.E.A.L bullet and Minie. Results are only so so (3"-5" at 110yds).
When the Mold finally arrived I cast up a few, ok a lot, only to find when I went to load the first one it slipped down the barrel not unlike a mortar bomb down it's tube!
I emailed Pedersoli about it and they asked if i could send it (the mold) with a couple of samples so they could check it out. I am reluctant to part with it,wondering if i will ever see my $100 mold again?
Any suggestions?
I love using this rifle but have yet to get the accuracy i was hoping for. Tips?

[missionary5155]

Good morning and WELCOME !
I have little experience with boolits in muzzleloaders so I am no help. Been a Roundballer all my life like my dad. Always just reached for a bigger bore when more thump was needed.
You could try a thin patch on the boolit...

[mooman76]

1-28 twist is pretty tight twist for conicals. I've never heard of a sidelock having that tight a twist but that doesn't mean it isn't so. I have heard of a 1-32. If it does have a 1-28 your 3-5" is about right. That tight a twist is more for a sobot type projectile. Some will shoot a conical with that twist but you will have to try a few until you find the right one that works. You didn't say if the mould was a minie or a maxie. Minies are suppose to slide down the barrel fairly easy. Most any mould maker will fix a problem (if it is their fault)with a mould and return it no problem but I have not delt with that company.

[Johnch]

I would use a sabot and 45 cal boolit in the 300 -350 gr range , but a slightly lighter boolit will normaly shoot almost as accuratly

Not going to set any speed records
But in my Knight
A pure lead 350 gr boolit sized to .452 , pushed by 100 gr of loose 777
Will shoot sub 3" at 150 yds

Never shot a deer at that range , but several ground hogs found out the hard way
That I could hit them at 150 - 200 yds

John

[dunno.458]

mooman, I just checked Pedersoli's website. Twist is actually 1:24. So much for relying on memory. here is pedersoli's link if anyone is interested.
http://http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/?item=ArmiCategoriaDettaglio&CategoriaId=241&lang=en.
The Lee REAL shot better around 3" while lee's minie was more erratic around 5". The minie is actually harder to start than the REAL, engraving on loading? I have taken the REAL deer hunting but not taken a shot yet. I wouldn't use the minie.
The Pedersoli Boolit (still getting used to that name) is a maxi type that looks like it belongs in a BPCR, less a crimp grove. All 450gr of it! I gave some thought to paper patching but really don't want the extra work, Pedersoli gives me the idea it should be lubed and used as is. I don't want to mess with sabots either, 2 reasons, price and availability in our corner of the world. I know the simple answer is just send it back.
My original aim when I bought the rifle was to get it shooting accurately and use it out to 200m on paper in competition, and have a crack a silhouette's to 500m. Am still looking at tang sights to this end.


Lee

[badgeredd]

mooman, I just checked Pedersoli's website. Twist is actually 1:24. So much for relying on memory. here is pedersoli's link if anyone is interested.
http://http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/?item=ArmiCategoriaDettaglio&CategoriaId=241&lang=en.
The Lee REAL shot better around 3" while lee's minie was more erratic around 5". The minie is actually harder to start than the REAL, engraving on loading? I have taken the REAL deer hunting but not taken a shot yet. I wouldn't use the minie.
The Pedersoli Boolit (still getting used to that name) is a maxi type that looks like it belongs in a BPCR, less a crimp grove. All 450gr of it! I gave some thought to paper patching but really don't want the extra work, Pedersoli gives me the idea it should be lubed and used as is. I don't want to mess with sabots either, 2 reasons, price and availability in our corner of the world. I know the simple answer is just send it back.
My original aim when I bought the rifle was to get it shooting accurately and use it out to 200m on paper in competition, and have a crack a silhouette's to 500m. Am still looking at tang sights to this end.


Lee

Which REAL boolit are you using? There are 2 weights available.

Also Lee has a couple other molds that may or may not be of use to you. One is an Improved Minie that would be of a weight that it may work well for you (360 grains). The second is a Modern Minie at 354 grains.

I have a very fast twist 54 caliber muzzie and had some trouble finding an accurate projectile. Finally a friend suggested an over-powder wad. I use a dry felt wad 1/8" thick under the boolit and it has improved my accuracy considerably. You might want to try the same or even a card wad to see if there is an improvement. Just a couple thoughts.....

Edd

[rhbrink]

Sounds like a perfect paperpatch setup to me. Really isn't that hard to do plenty of instructions in this forum and else where on the web site. Once you get started it's actually pretty easy and they do shoot very well.

[dunno.458]

I already have Lee's improved minie and use the heavier (320gr)REAL bullet.

How tight are paper patched boolits to load? I'm thinking thinking they would be hard to start without tearing up the patch or have it come lose as it gets smacked into the muzzle. Where do I find the cotton paper they talk about? Think I might as well try it. And cut some wads for those REALs. So many things to keep me occupied :)

Off to do some research then!

[idahoron]

I second the paper patch thing. Look up some of my posts. I bet the Lee C-501-440-RF would do outstanding in that rifle. Ron

[DIRT Farmer]

1/24 should handle a fairly heavy bullet. The ideal fit is to allow a bullet to load with the weight of the ramrod. You might try lubing the bullet, base clean and a card wad under it. It never fails to amaze me to see a round bullet slide down a hex Withworth barrel then dig it up from the berm and find a hex bullet with a seam from the edges of the paper patch. Pure lead will definately bump up and fill the bore.

[idahoron]

Mine slide down with a little more force than the weight of the rod. I use an over powder wad with it. After I paper patch that .501 bullet I send it through the lee sizer dry and size it back to .501 and they are ready to shoot. One rifle I shot them in needed a little lube as they went down. My stainless rifles don't need the lube. Ron

[DIRT Farmer]

Idahoron I am just begining down the slippery slope of M/L PP and am working with what I have been told. I know every barrel is a law in itself. Today the package was loaded, the wad took more force than the bullet. I am wondering if the fit is a little loose.

[idahoron]

All I can tell you is MY experience with Green Mountain barrels, and these 500S&W bullets. I leave a long tail and twist it. After i size the tail is flattened. The only time I have stripped a patch was when I was putting lube on the paper before i sized it. by the time I got to using them the paper was see through and the bullets pushed through the paper. Mine go down not hard but there is no way they would move off the charge. I know that my paper patching for these hunting bullets is different than what the long range boys are doing. I look at it like if it is working why mess with it. Ron

[dunno.458]

So these slug guns (correct terminology? someone correct me if I'm wrong) should have minimal rifling engraving on the boolit when loading? I had wondered if the bullet would slug up that much on firing as it is a slip fit in the barrel. When I drop one in it slowly slides down the barrel as the air it displaces leaks around it. Goes faster if I half cock the hammer.
Honestly thought about firing these but figured they would lead to billy oh! A good wad should gas seal and prevent that as long as the boolit obturates and grips the rifling. If it does that in a Whitworth barrel then I guess it will work for me. One thought though, how to keep that boolit seated against the powder while hunting? I don't think sticky lube is adequate insurance?
Still trying to post a photo of this mold and boolits.

[dunno.458]

25595Getting there, boolits are a little oxidised because they were cast some time ago.

[HORNET]

You could "Beagle" that Pedersoli mold to pick up a couple of thousandths in diameter and get a little interference to hold it in the barrel. Try lubed with and without the felt wad.

[fishhawk]

you know just reading this and had a thought (ya scary i know) but how about just cloth patching it like a RB? might be a tight load but a thin cloth patch may be enough. steve k

[Bullshop]

There is another way to PP without wrapping the boolit. It is a traditional method that was called the Chase patch, I think.
In use you would cut strips of paper the width of your ball and about three times as long.
Lay the paper strips on the muzzle in an X pattern and place the base of the boolit in the center and push down. This can be done with boolit or ball. You can also use more than two strips of paper to get the right fit. It has worked very good for me. I use 100% cotton fiber resume paper from Office Max.

[DIRT Farmer]

Bull shop I do rember seeing some of the old slug gun shooters using that system on the line at Friendship, though they had false muzzles that had been machined for the perfect cross, and lubed with sperm oil. They shot some amazing groups with that system.

[dunno.458]

I gave the cross patch method a try a few nights ago. Just testing fit in the garage, didn't shoot any. Found some .002'' note book paper and tried it. A little tight going by Idarons and others advice, tore the paper in a few spots on the the corner's of the base. Could get them just started with a thumb to about the 2nd driving band. Would need a short starter to go futher. In anycase i pulled them out with a pair of pliers rather than unscrew the breach plug.
So.....
I went and found some tracing paper at .002'' thick. Cut some patches from it and had a go at wet patching. Noticed staight up that the paper would curl in one direction soon as it hit the water. Lengthwise at first, so I cut a few more with the grain running the other way. Going by the theory that as they dry the paper will want to stay curled. It is suprising how much this wet paper would stretch when wrapping. I had trouble getting a consistent lap and eventually cut the patches a lot shorter than the dry length. I did get the hang of it eventually and left them overnight to dry. I found in the morning that the paper had not stuck to itself at all and some patches had sprung loose. Hmmm. After more research I think I did not have enough paper folded under the base, only .060''-.100'' on mine. Doing so did not "lock" the tail of patch in? Do not wish to twist tails. Looks untidy and potentially inaccurate. This paper seemed quite brittle when dry and readily coiled back up when peeled from a boolit.
So should I use; 1. different paper
2. starch, eggwhite or similar
3. a tiny dab of some glue
4. something else?
Thanks to all who have replied

Better go see how these patched boolits fit the muzzleloader.

[idahoron]

To be honest I have never had any luck with the types of paper you used. I use 25% cotton 9 # paper.
When I paper patch my bullets I wrap them dry. I size them dry and I leave a good length of tail. My paper is tight on the bullets and they go down very well in all the rifles I have tried them in. The tails in my opinion are not a problem out to normal hunting range under 200 yards.
You said the bullet got tight at the second band. You must not have sized. Ron

[Nobade]

I use the 9# onionskin from the papermill, wrap wet on a cigarette roller, twist the tail, cut it off with side cutters, and dry on a hot plate. Paper dries in a minute or so, and is tight. Then I smear a little paste wax on, (actually Score High mold release) and run the boolit through a push through sizer. This further irons the patch so it is very hard. Remember you'll get approx. .001" springback with patched boolits so your sizer needs to be a little smaller than you'd think to make properly fitting projectiles. In addition, I like to size to .001" smaller than bore diameter for muzzleloaders. So my .501" rifle gets .500" boolits, and they slide down with the weight of the ramrod.

[wgr]

that twist will shoot a maxi ball well are the lyman plains bullet

[staceyporter]

What type of sights, typical Hawken sights are pretty coarse and a 3" group is pretty good

[idahoron]

The sights I use on my rifles are the Lyman 57 SML peep and the 17 AML globe front sight with Lee Shavers BPCR inserts. Ron