45/70 GG The need for speed?

[crabo]

If you are hunting hogs and deer with a 350 to 420 grain boolit with a decent meplat, is there any real reason to go over 1400-1500 fps in a guide gun? The shots would be 150 yards or less.

Other than self abuse and it might fly a little flatter, I really can't think of a need for more velocity. Can anyone help me out here? I am not talking bear, elk, or anything larger than deer and hogs.

In the same vein, I have the two group buys pictured below. One is a 360 grain and the other is a 420. I like the romance of the larger, heavier boolit, but when a .44 250K will easily pass through several deer at 1200 fps, why do I need more speed and heavier boolits?

In the scenerio presented, if I can get the same level of accuracy with both boolits, other than the testosterone effect, is there a reason to shoot the heavier boolit?

Did this make any sense?

[ghh3rd]

This will be an interesting post for me, as I will be picking up my 45-70 Marin very soon. I've ordered a 425gr group buy mold, figuring that it's just over the "standard" 405gr, which seem like a good hunting weight. I ordered some cavities in both GC and PB (even one HP). I don't figure I'll hunt anything tougher than a hog or deer, but my testosterone does dictate that I will push the rifle to the limit at least at the range once in a while.

From what I gather, this 425 gr boolit with just about any load from trapdoor level up will likely pass through a deer or hog. I would guess that the only reason to increase velocity would be to improve trajectory.

Randy

[45 2.1]

If you are hunting hogs and deer with a 350 to 420 grain boolit with a decent meplat, is there any real reason to go over 1400-1500 fps in a guide gun? The shots would be 150 yards or less.

You have no need of anything over 350 gr. (300 gr. would be better) for what your doing. A good soft malleable alloy ( 50% WW / 50% pure air cooled) is in order for what you want to do.

[Larry Gibson]

Crabo

Obviously you do not hunt where rogue chizzle tooths abound;-)

Larry Gibson

[missionary5155]

Good morning Crabo
Historicly a 400 grain caliber 45 boolit traveling at 1200 fps was sufficient for any critter walking this side of our planet. Then we could up the weight and talk about the 450´s or 500 grainers taking out maybe 30 million buffs..
But I shoot caliber 45 up to 1800 fps but mostly at about that 1500-1600 fps.. I fear nothing that walks about as long as I am facing it. At 1500 fps a 400 grainer is really all that I will ever need for any critter but then I do not walk about Alaska where really big preditors lurk about. If I did I would carry 450 grainers at 1800 fps and practice alot at 30 yards.
But a well placed 400 FN 50/50 boolit at 1500 fps is plenty. But I do not plan on launching them over 100 yards. That is my self imposed 45-70 tang sight hunting rule.

[Bret4207]

The only logical reason is to flatten trajectory. I have a 45-70 too. When I get around to working up a hunting load I doubt it'll be anything other than the Gould 330 HP at 13-1400 fps. But I will not be taking any Hail Mary shots either. At 1400 fps with a blunt and heavy boolit the trajectory is even less stellar than the lowly 22 LR. Try a few groups at 150 yards and use your own best judgment on your max range. There is a reason the 30-30 and similar cartridges were considered 100 yards hunting rounds, and the 38-40, 44-40, 45-70, etc. have more of a rainbow trajectory than the "Hi-Speed" 30-30.

[onesonek]

Assuming we are talking the larger speicie's of hogs,,,,,,With animals that have big teeth, claws, or both,,,, I try and plan for the worst possible scenario. I'm sure the 360 or lesser weight will kill, but I would feel better carrying the extra momentum/penetration of the 420 in some situaitons that I can envision. For me I would run the 420 cast on the stiff side at about 1550 fps. And save the 360 at the same speed for deer.

Dave

[blackthorn]

"---but when a .44 250K will easily pass through several deer at 1200 fps, why do I need more speed and heavier boolits?"

How many is "several" and how did you get them to line up?---LOL
Sorry---I couldnt resist---(I tried!).

[Naphtali]

Since using handgun projectiles of similar configuration and less than/equal to similar muzzle velocities causes no anxiety when used to take much larger animals, my belief is the only rational reason for significantly higher velocity is to improve your ± 4-inch point of aim distance.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.


If you are hunting hogs and deer with a 350 to 420 grain boolit with a decent meplat, is there any real reason to go over 1400-1500 fps in a guide gun? The shots would be 150 yards or less.

Other than self abuse and it might fly a little flatter, I really can't think of a need for more velocity. Can anyone help me out here? I am not talking bear, elk, or anything larger than deer and hogs.

In the same vein, I have the two group buys pictured below. One is a 360 grain and the other is a 420. I like the romance of the larger, heavier boolit, but when a .44 250K will easily pass through several deer at 1200 fps, why do I need more speed and heavier boolits?

In the scenerio presented, if I can get the same level of accuracy with both boolits, other than the testosterone effect, is there a reason to shoot the heavier boolit?

Did this make any sense?

[XWrench3]

is there a NEED? probably not, but sometimes, YOU JUST GOTTA DO WHAT YOU GOTTA DO! LOL! :redneck::kidding:

[ghh3rd]

...how did you get them to line up?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHudnBsGyHk

[thx997303]

I filled a boolit trap with 3 feet of damp wood mulch, and at 100 yards shot it with my Marlin GG in 45-70

The boolit passed through all 3 feet of mulch, flattened on the steel plate at the back of the trap, and bounced a few inches back through the mulch.

The load was 15 gr of Unique under a 350 gr Ranch Dog boolit.

Velocity?

1300 fps at the muzzle.

[Wayne Smith]

As you can see, you have no problem with your designated game. If you go after bear graduate up to the 420. They take a powerful lot of killing.

[JesterGrin_1]

To be honest I feel the 330Gr to 350Gr is the best choice in bullet weight. For my Marlin 1895GS the 300Gr class did not shoot as well as the heavier weight class of bullet. I feel the reason for this is that the 300Gr class of bullet is just too short for the large bore.

I have both the Ranch Dog 350Gr and the Ranch Dog 425Gr and have loaded for both and both shoot very well. I chose the 350Gr as the 425Gr had about 8 in drop below the 350Gr at 100 yards. As I did wish to have a flatter shooting round for the range I intend to use it for. I shoot mainly HOG and Deer up to about 140 yards.

But in the end you will have to pick what weight bullet you like best for the job at hand and work on your loads till you get the best accuracy or your shoulder cry's for help lol.

My loads are pretty darn stout. But the powder I use is H-322 with great results.

For lower loads you might wish to ask THX997303. :) As my loads will rattle your brains lol.

[thx997303]

Aint that the truth JesterGrin_1,

Glad I had a limbsaver on it when shooting your loads. [smilie=p:

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Flattening the Trajectory -------------------------------------

Now, in spite of be'in an Ol'Coot, I am new to this hunt'in with a cast boolits.

Just figured it was one of the last things I could do in the area of handloading for hunting, so here I am, complete with my RUGER #1s - 45/70 and a 350gr LBT - WFN mold.

So, from everything I read and be'in a 67year old "newbie" that is what I have to go on, I have no need for the velocities I have arrived at other then improved trajectory.

This past week, I did some bench time, and the 350gr LBT went down the tube ahead of 50gr of IMR 4198 at an average of 2161.7fps for 20 shots.

During the session I shot at least 40 rounds off the bench, all inexcess of 2100fps, doing so with the aid of a shot filled shooting bag between me and the nice soft recoil pad installed on the #1.

No pain, no funny colors on the shoulder.[smilie=w:

However, lik'in to shoot and be'in not much into pain, I shoot with a sand bag or my new shot filled bag, even if I am benching the wife's .270.

Therefore, I am doing quite well with the recoil at the bench and find it no problem off hand.

It has been a number of years since I have taken a critter at more then 200 yds, but in this country, there is always a good possibility of such a thing happening, and this is the reason I desire to flatten out the flight of that big hunk of lead.

The down side ------ It is highly unlikely I will find any boolits for posting of "after" photographs.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot :cbpour: :lovebooli

[threett1]

I shoot the Gould HP in my Guide Gun and a Handi Rifle. I load them to 1600fps. The ONLY problem with them was when my son encountered a 400 lb hog. It died anyways, but not as fast as the deer and smaller pigs we shot with it. It does just fine.

[Canuck Bob]

I read some of the African hunting sites and it is interesting that a sectional density of .3 is considered required for very deep penetration on the real heavy game. In my case that would be a 400 gr. 444 bullet.

I mention this as a way to help establish an upper weight range that would be the most effective. Having hunted in active grizzly country for years I never felt undergunned with stout loads with 265 Hornady's. I know they will penetrate a lot of moose bone and meat up to 200 yards. A 400 gr. loaded down to the 1600 range gives the same kick as the 265 at 2200 range according to Beartooth's recoil calculator.

What appeals to me with these heavy weight medium speed bullets is the fact they operate in a speed range that is ideal for lead bullets. With cast bullets that kill with a big meplat and a long wound track rather than an explosive transfer of energy the heavy weights will travel a long way without shedding velocity as quickly as a mid weight. Plus one can practice with actual hunting rounds. Crank a 500 gr bullet up to max and it hurts at both ends.

That video was sickening.

[Ole]

I throttled back my .450 Marlin GG Elk round last winter.

I didn't get a chance to use that rifle on an elk (ended up getting one with my .358 Win), but my load was 42gr of H4198 and a RD350. Chrono looked really promising (very low spread) and avged around 1640fps. I have the rifle sighted 3 inches high @ 100yards and it's supposed to be zeroed around 170yards. That's plenty distance for where I hunt and the rifle kicks about the same as my 7mm Mag.

I have used 20.0 grains of 2400 (+ .5gr polyfill)with my RD425's and they run about 1240fps out of my GG. This load makes a great 50 yard plinker, but it already 6-8 inches low at 100 yards.

I doubt i'll shoot very many full house loads in this rifle again unless i'm looking to impress my friends. :mrgreen:

[Canuck Bob]

I throttled back my .450 Marlin GG Elk round last winter.

I doubt i'll shoot very many full house loads in this rifle again unless i'm looking to impress my friends. :mrgreen:

I kinda feel the same about my 444. Mind you 350 gns. at 1600 to 1700 ain't no 243 Winchester either in a 450!

Of course my micro groove would never stabilize them but if it did I'd just have to load up a hot load of 400 grainers just for the experience.

In regards the original post, a 300-325 big bore lead bullet at anything over 1400 fps is actually a powerful load for anything up to big black bear and 150 yards. If grizzlies at rock throwin' range is a regular possibility the minimum for me would be the heaviest bullet I could push at 1600 fps.

I don't hunt anymore so I keep the 444 as a bear protection rifle as my girls are little and we camp in the rockies. Veral at LBT recommended a 300 grain LFN with GC at 1600 fps as ideal for what I need. There is no right or wrong, well I guess a 38 Special snubby would be a real poor choice, but his opinion is always worth serious consideration.

[Bret4207]

Flattening the Trajectory -------------------------------------

Now, in spite of be'in an Ol'Coot, I am new to this hunt'in with a cast boolits.

Just figured it was one of the last things I could do in the area of handloading for hunting, so here I am, complete with my RUGER #1s - 45/70 and a 350gr LBT - WFN mold.

So, from everything I read and be'in a 67year old "newbie" that is what I have to go on, I have no need for the velocities I have arrived at other then improved trajectory.

This past week, I did some bench time, and the 350gr LBT went down the tube ahead of 50gr of IMR 4198 at an average of 2161.7fps for 20 shots.

During the session I shot at least 40 rounds off the bench, all inexcess of 2100fps, doing so with the aid of a shot filled shooting bag between me and the nice soft recoil pad installed on the #1.

No pain, no funny colors on the shoulder.[smilie=w:

However, lik'in to shoot and be'in not much into pain, I shoot with a sand bag or my new shot filled bag, even if I am benching the wife's .270.

Therefore, I am doing quite well with the recoil at the bench and find it no problem off hand.

It has been a number of years since I have taken a critter at more then 200 yds, but in this country, there is always a good possibility of such a thing happening, and this is the reason I desire to flatten out the flight of that big hunk of lead.

The down side ------ It is highly unlikely I will find any boolits for posting of "after" photographs.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot :cbpour: :lovebooli


Back when I was my Dad's gunshop slave I learned all about the wonderful effects of heavy recoil. Despite all the reading of Keith, Ruark, Capstick, Bell, etc. I did I still ended looking like I'd been used for a punching bag by Evander Holyfield. Then one day a kind old shooter mentioned I might well appreciate a 25 lbs bag of shot between me and the butt plate. He even claimed I might stop walking with the curious list to starboard and the "Eyegor" like swelling of my right shoulder might be reduced and the pathetic moaning and groaning might cease. Since my tear ducts were swollen from overuse, I could only kneel and kiss the hem of his WW2 issue khakis after trying it the first time. He was gracious enough to pull me to my feet and told me to "...go forth, and bruise no more... What a guy!

Nothing wrong with a sissy-bag!

[pdawg_shooter]

After five years of trying I have finally found THE load for my Marlin 1895g. Does everything I want done and is still shootable. I started with new Remington brass, annealed the first ¾ inch using the melted lead method, belled with a Lee expander and primed with CCI 200. The powder charge is 52gr AA 2495. I started with 48 and worked up with no signs of pressure. This is a compressed load, even using a 16 inch drop tube. The magic bullet is cast in a Lyman 451114 mould. The alloy is 17 parts pure lead, 2 ½ parts linotype, and ½ part tin. The bullet drops from the mould .451 and is ready for patching. I make my patches from 16lb green bar computer paper, cut 2.750 long on a 60* angle 1.500 high. I dip in water and wrap twice around the bullet. They are left to dry overnight, then lubed with BAC. The next day the tails are clipped and the bullet is run through a .459 Lee sizing die. I seat them to an OCL of 2.580. These shoot clover leaf groups at 25 yards and into 1.75 at 100. This is with a Lyman 66 rear sight and factory front sight. Not bad for 58 year old eyes. Bullet performance on game is all one could ask for. I’ll not quit experimenting, but how does one improve on perfection?

[PatMarlin]

In regards to flatter trajectory and the 45-70, I say why fool with mother nature? ...:mrgreen:

My resent blessing of winning my new Browning 270 at the fair, introduced me to a new gizmo. THe scope on this rifle has Leupold's new CDS elevation turret:

http://www.leupold.com/VX-3CDS

I wonder if I can get Leupold to install one of those on my guide gun VariX-III 1.5x5 scope?


http://www.patmarlins.com/1895scoped.jpg

[Nrut]

Yes you can Pat...
Just go to their website and click on Custom Shop...
Report back on how they worked on your GG, eh..:-D

[JesterGrin_1]

Pat as Nrut said yes they can. You give them your load info and they will custom set up a scope just for that load. But that is the hard part to stay with one load lol. :)

[fredj338]

I love my 1895GG, shoots really well w/ 350grJ bullets @ 1700fps. With lead, I find best accuarcy so far under 1600fps. Sighted in @ 100yds, it shoots flat enough to 150yds & I doubt anything stops a 350grLFP at that distance.

[rintinglen]

My Marlin CB just dotes on the 459-192 350 grainers. I have loaded them up to "ouch" levels but most of my shooting is done with 25 grains of SR 4759 or 22 grains of 2400. 1400 odd feet per second and darned fine accuracy. Were I suddenly to find southern California to be over run with grizzly bears or man-eating wombats I might load it hotter, but the dinky deer we have don't need quite that much to kill 'em--the last venison I ate came courtesy of a .223.

[home in oz]

I would like some help getting the deer to line up.

Or hogs for that matter!

[Fly-guy]

Hey Oz, I don't know about the hogs but maybe you ought to check for deer in your back yard! What section of Kansas do you live? The Land of Oz makes me think you are close to my old back yard.

I have a state wide whitetail tag and hope to use it in either sw or se Kansas this year.

Good luck in finding bamby.