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frkelly74
09-19-2010, 03:14 PM
I wanted to try to put some cast bullets down range thru my garand. I had some of the 160 gr Lee bullets and some of the 160+- 311 lee sks bullets on hand so I put together some loads of each to see if they would work. The first bullets were sized 308 with gas checks and tumble lubed. The second were sized in a 311 sizer with gas checks and also tumble lubed. I tried a dummy round to see if it would chamber the 311 sized bullet and it did with no problem, even when I eased the bolt forward. So at that point I abandoned the 308 sized bullets for this project. I used a 30 cal M die to prepare the case necks for the bullets and every thing went together very well. I have data from Accurate that said 37.8 gr of 2520 is start load for lead bullets from 152 to 180 gr, I reduced my loading to 35 gr, loaded, and went to the range. I fired at targets at 50 yds loading one round in the sled at a time and all shots went generally where I wanted them to. I did notice that I got much better grouping when I raised the muzzle and bumped the butt before firing. There was a lot of vertical stringing if I didn't do this. Also the rifle ejected fired cases and locked open usually on the rounds that I raised and bumped but would only hiccup the bolt a little if I just fired them. The bore stayed clean and I could easily hit clay pigeons laying on the berm.
So the question comes to me as to whether I should use filler in the case or change powders to eliminate the powder position problem that I seem to have. I used 2520 because I have it, (there was quite a bit of empty space in the case) would another medium burning powder show less or no tendency toward this. I have seen some recommend a piece of toilet paper or some dacron as a filler but am concerned about raising the pressure too high. I intend to step up to the listed start load gradually before I load up a bunch of these. I would appreciate any input. Thanks

nicholst55
09-19-2010, 06:03 PM
Shoot Larry Gibson a PM if he doesn't join in this discussion. He is a wealth of knowledge both on the use of fillers, and cast in gas guns. My recommendation is to use a Dacron filler - don't tamp it in place, just insert it into the case. You want it to just keep the powder in place, not act as an over powder wad.

beagle
09-19-2010, 09:01 PM
Check castpics/articles by members and look for one on LOading Cast in the M1 Garand by George Carlson and he'll get you on the right track./beagle

Larry Gibson
09-20-2010, 12:29 AM
2520 poses a couple problems with reduced loads as you are finding out. This evidences itself in the verticle stringing cause by inconsistent ignition. Raising the muzzle and bumping the powder agains the primer helps but it does take a lot of the fun out of shooting the M1. The lighter weight bullet doesn't help build up pressure fast enough in the reduced load of 2520 either. A much better choice is a heavier bullet. The Lyman 311299 is my 1st choice for M1s with the 314299 second choice if the throat and barrel are worn. I also prefer the much easier to ignite 4895 for such loads in the M1. It provides sufficient gas port pressure at the correct velocity range for cast bullets in the 10" twist for the best accuracy also.

However, since you have the 2530 and want to use it with the cast bullets you have so let's see what can be done. I suggest reducing the load 5 gr and using a 3/4 gr dacron filler over the powder. The dacron filler keeps the powder against the primer and increases the ignition consistency. You also won't have to elevate the muzzle and bump the butt any more:-) If that load does not function the action reliably then work up in 1 gr increments until it does. When you have functional reliability with a set of componants shooting cast bullets most often that is where the best accuracy will be also.

If your not sure how to use the dacron filler just ask and I'll post some directions.

Larry Gibson

nicholst55
09-20-2010, 05:45 AM
If your not sure how to use the dacron filler just ask and I'll post some directions.

I'd be interested in reading your technique, Larry, if you'd be so kind.

Larry Gibson
09-20-2010, 11:28 AM
I'd be interested in reading your technique, Larry, if you'd be so kind.

Here's the basic technique that I use;

I don't use the dacron filler or a wad either with the fast to medium burning "fast" pistol /shotgun type powders. I find a fast burning powder that is fast enough to ignite and burn efficiently at the velocity I want.

For use in rifle cases with slow “fast” burning powders (4227, 4759, 5744, 4198, etc.) up through the slow burning powders that give around 80% or less loading density I use a dacron filler between the powder and base of the bullet. The “dacron” is polyester fill as commonly found in pillows and toys. It also comes in sheets called “batting”. It can be obtained very reasonably at most any fabric store.

The dacron batting comes in various thicknesses. I prefer that which is about 5/8" thick. My wife recently bought me 10 yards which will give many, many thousands of cast bullet loads. With this current batch of batting I cut it initially across the width into strips about 3/4" wide. I then "eyeball" cut 1/2" wide chunks which is close to 3/4 gr.

A smaller chunk is cut for 1/2 gr and larger for a larger amount. I've cut some chunks that weight 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 grs and have them in a "snack" baggie stuck on a poster board above my loading bench for quick reference when I need to cut new chunks. The batting will run thin and thick throughout the sheet so I again just "eyeball it" based on the thickness of the batting when cutting the chunks.

Pretty extensive tests have demonstrated that the weight of the filler does not have to be exact, only close. What is important is that there is enough so that it “fills" the space between powder and bullet. A little too much hurts nothing but too little poses problems. That's why I have the different size "chunks" so I can use the right size for the case capacity I am filling. For example; with most medium burning powders (3031, 4895, 4064) in and '06 to function an M1 a 3/4 gr dacron filler is about right. With slower powders that give a higher loading density like 4831 a 1/2 gr filler is about right.

I use a section of .22 cal cleaning rod in cartridges of .30 - .375 cal to push the Dacron chunk inside the case just so it is all in. The 6 to 10" section gives plenty to hold onto and sufficient "feel". Merely hold the chunk of dacron over the case mouth and shove it in with the rod. Sometimes it takes a couple three pokes to ensure all is inside the case mouth. I poke the chunks in until the are at the botom of the neck or at least all in the case. It doesn’t matter. What you want is to let the base of the bullet finish pushing it down and adding any compression. Thus I do not push it down on the powder but let the bullet do that when the bullet is seated. Using the right size chunk of dacron this method then provides a "filler" in the air space between the powder and base of the bullet.

A small length of coat hanger works for the .22-7mm cartridges and an unsharpened pencil works well for .45 cals.

If you have any questions or need clarification don't hesitate to ask.

Larry Gibson

dualsport
09-20-2010, 11:49 AM
I tried this combo, old 4831, dacron, then COW. Seems I remember reading about using both fillers together, but my memory is a little foggy now. Done this, Larry? I used a 175 Saeco #315 in a M1 Garand this way, poor results but no problems.

sqlbullet
09-21-2010, 01:03 PM
I gotta second the suggestion for a heavier bullet. I use a Lee 200 gr and have tested with H4831 (42 grains + filler), Varget (32-34 grains + filler) and Reloader 15 (32-34 grains + filler). I have been happy with the first two loads. The Reloader 15 loads were not reliable in cycling the action, having a few short strokes. I have loaded some new test rounds with 36 and 38 grains of Reloader 15 to try.

I was most pleased with Varget. Good groups, reliable function, less powder, all wins.

frkelly74
09-21-2010, 02:16 PM
Well , Thank you everyone, especially Larry. My wife is a quilter so I can grab some of her batting. I got the 2520 just before the Panic for $110 per 8lb jug and also a jug of 4064. The 4064 went into various other loadings and is all gone but the 2520 remains. I think I will have to save up and spring for a jug of the XMR2495 which is supposed to be the same as IMR 4895. Accurate powders run about $3 cheaper per pound than The IMR powders around here. I just let a 185 gr 312 mold get away also. I should have been on my toes better. I am going to check Ebay right now.

zxcvbob
09-21-2010, 02:59 PM
Reloading for an M1 is on my todo list, it's just kind of far down the list at the moment. I have Rel-12, AA-2495, and AA-2520 powders. Also have some AA "Data 85" powder, but I know that one's too slow but will work in a bolt-action with j-bullets.

Will round-nosed and flat-nosed .30-30 bullets work in a Garand, or do they not feed right?

sqlbullet
09-21-2010, 05:37 PM
zxcvbob, I am not super familiar with AA Data 85, but from what I read it is similar to H4831 or 4350 in burn rate. This would make it great for a Garand with heavy lead bullets (200 -210 gr).

Lead isn't copper, and the rules for protecting your op-rod are different when you shoot cast.

As far as those 30-30 bullets, I bet they would feed fine, but have never tried.

Crash_Corrigan
09-22-2010, 10:21 AM
I run a 311284 boolt with 4064 powder and PSB filler. I use a second powder measurer for the PSB and fill it till it just comes to the bottom of seated boolit. You can tell with you can a slight crunch when you seat the boolt.

You will have a very clean bore and excellent accuracy with your powder but cut back on the powder by about 7 gr to start off with and play with it. You will find the sweet spot somewhere where you get good accuracy and your empties will pile up just ahed of the rifle in a nice pile and your brass will last for a long time.

With my 303 brit SMLE I am getting outstanding results with light charges and PSB filler. I was concerend about gunking up the gas cylinder on the Garand but I have had not a problem since I started.

Larry Gibson
09-22-2010, 02:04 PM
I tried this combo, old 4831, dacron, then COW. Seems I remember reading about using both fillers together, but my memory is a little foggy now. Done this, Larry? I used a 175 Saeco #315 in a M1 Garand this way, poor results but no problems.

Yes, I also use the dacron filler with old 4831 (I still have 7 pounds left). However, a heavier bullet is also needed for best results with that slower powder if you want to keep the velocity down in the best accuracy range of 1800 - 1950 fps for the M1.

Larry Gibson

dualsport
09-22-2010, 09:03 PM
What about dacron and COW together? My thinking was the dacron would reduce the amount of COW necessary to reduce chances of a ringed chamber. I may try this once more with 4831 and the 311284. The dacron comes up to the neck base. just a little COW on top of that to help prevent leading and cleans the bore nice. I'll give it a shot and see. I'm going to try PSB and AA2700 also with the 311284.

frkelly74
09-22-2010, 10:14 PM
COW, Cream of wheat , Right? PSB is ?

dualsport
09-23-2010, 01:00 AM
I don't know what PSB stands for, other than it's the plastic shotgun shell buffer material. Like plastic corn meal. I have a bag I've been saving for 20 yrs. or so, might as well try it.

AlaskaMike
09-23-2010, 12:14 PM
If you use dacron as a filler I don't see any need to use COW as well.

Larry Gibson
09-23-2010, 01:36 PM
If you use dacron as a filler I don't see any need to use COW as well.

That is correct.

Larry Gibson

dualsport
09-23-2010, 11:45 PM
OK, I'll try just the dacron. Maybe two fillers is not twice as good when it comes to things that go boom.

rintinglen
09-24-2010, 12:11 AM
It has been 20 years and more since the folks at the NRA put the kibosh to the notion of using Cream of wheat as a filler in bottle neck shells. Especially if placed on top of another filler, the COW can function like an obstruction in the bore, resulting in a jugged chamber. That said, a whole lot of COW gets blasted out the barrel of 45-70s without harm, at least none that I've heard of anyway.