alternative to belling necks?

[selmerfan]

Okay, so I don't have a proper expanding die for my .30 caliber guns for loading cast boolits. I was unhappy with the results of using a tapered punch and a tap with a hammer, so I decided to try using my 28 degree VLD case mouth chamfering tool. I used it on my .30-06 round and .260 rounds with GREAT success - my runout with cast boolits was in the .002" range and did have any difficulty seating boolits. I think I'll be doing this from now on unless someone can tell me a good reason NOT to. Anybody?

[Doc Highwall]

The problem is you have a belled case mouth but the part that grips the bullet has not been touched and will affect the seating pressure and also the start pressure. The starting pressure is very important for accuracy. The Lyman M-die addresses this with the two steps.

[462]

Also, there is the matter of an improperly expanded case swaging down the over-sized-for-caliber cast boolit, which is a cause of leading.

[MT Gianni]

Pulling a bullet and measuring the base and sides that were in the case should tell you whether or not you were swedging. I ran with a twist of a leatherman for a lot of years in some calibers.

[geargnasher]

If the case mouth is not expanded the entire length to .001" or so under sized boolit diameter, and I don't know of any factory standard dies sets that will, you will likely either squeeze the boolit down undersized when seating or the boolit will expand the neck off-center. You need to expand the neck with a tool that will keep the neck concentric with the case body. The M die that Lyman makes will solve both probems for you, and it has a bell mouth section that you can adjust to give you the amount of flare you desire.

I would be wary of using the VLD chamfer tool to do more than just a deburr after trimming, if you thin out the case mouth too much you're inviting premature splits, and, if you crimp, the thin mouth won't do much.

Gear

[Bret4207]

I assume you're running the reamer backwards, right?

I did the same thing as My Gianni, (further proof he's a genius!), for years. An M-Die is the "right" way and takes most of the risk out of things, but in a lot of cases (no pun intended) simply belling the mouth will work fine. When you can't see a reason for bad things happening then you better take a look at the belling/expanding process.

[AZ-Stew]

See this post for a detailed explanation of the M-Die. You'll understand why it doesn't just "bell" the case mouth. It expands the neck to the correct diameter for cast boolits and it has a short section that expands the mouth to a thousandth over boolit diameter to aid starting the boolit correctly and coaxially with the case mouth. No "belling" required. Much more gentle on the brass than a tool that bells the mouth like a trumpet.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=977081&postcount=12

Regards,

Stew

[462]

Bret4207 and AZ-Stew are correct, regarding the M-die. I have one for every cartridge that I reload.

[selmerfan]

Thanks for the Lyman "M" die info - I was not aware that it expanded the length of the neck, and all of the reasons posed are valid in my book. I'll be picking up an "M" die for my .30-06 and .308, I already have one for my .260. Thanks!

[MT Gianni]

You used to be able to just buy the buttons. I don't know if Ly still sells them that way.

Bret my leatherman idea was plagiarized from Waksupi, give him the credit.

[buck1]

I like the M dies. That said...

On my .308 win, I used the lyman M die and found that since I was useing real hard alloy, the Lee universal expanding die worked well and did not swage down my boolits. And my groups shrank a tad. Some have reported trouble with the Lee but I feel with hard alloy it works well and its universal and cheep too. It does just bell the mouths so keep that in mind.
.........Buck

[canyon-ghost]

I've loaded rifle rounds for TC Contenders for a while now. Never had a lot of problems in cast. Then, I ventured off into straight walled pistol rounds. I found out through experimentation that the expander die has to be just right for it to flare, but not overbell the case mouth. Too little and the lead shaves off the bullet, too much and the crimp has to be severe to work. Then the crimp has to be right, too much and it's too tight for accuracy, too little and the bullet slides back under recoil.
In a rifle round, the expander is usually on the full length sizing die and should draw all the way through the case mouth. But, I've had some not get big enough. Using new brass, I've had to fireform them, then necksize to make it work. I think the Lyman 'M' Die should be an asset there.

[462]

"You used to be able to just buy the buttons. I don't know if Ly still sells them that way."

Still can. Think they cost $4.95.

[PAT303]

With the M die can you buy one body and then the buttons for every calibre?. Pat

[MT Chambers]

I use "in-line bullet seaters" and don't need to bell case mouths, I don't know if it works on all seaters but it does with the RCBS comp. seater and my .30 cals. with hard cast bullets. Same rigging in 7mm works as well.

[462]

Here is a list of the M-die body size and various plugs: http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm

As can be seen, either body will accept many different plugs.

I found that a M2 body will size .30-30, though the plug needs to be screwed almost to the end of its threads.

[PAT303]

So who sells them?,I buy my gear through midsouth but I can't find the dies on thier website. Pat

[ricksplace]

Lyman makes two different die bodies for the M die. I have the two different length die bodies, and the the top screws are different lengths too. (The part into which the actual expander body fits). With the two dies, you can find an arrangement that will work from .32 acp to 375 H&H. I make the expander plugs on my lathe. I have one for every calibre from 22 to 45. Absolute must for cast bullet shooting

[Bret4207]

You used to be able to just buy the buttons. I don't know if Ly still sells them that way.

Bret my leatherman idea was plagiarized from Waksupi, give him the credit.

Well, in truth I used a pair of needle nose pliers but I got the idea from either Jim Carmichael or George Nonte.....pretty sure it was George.

Wow, I'm getting old. A good deal of the guys here probably don't recall when Carmichael was still writing for Handloader or even know who Nonte was!

[randyrat]

Not confuse,but add to the conversation... I have a 45acp that squeezes softer boolits down when seated. I know this because i've pulled a few. I don't have any leading but poor accuracy sometimes.

I noticed Lyman only makes a .450 (1st step) plug. Does a fellow have to sort and use only thin walled brass or are there other options.
Same deal with the .357

I hate sorting brass i wish they made a thicker plug for both calipers.

But then i may run into cambering problems with some brass?

[462]

PAT303,
Lyman sells them.

[Good Cheer]

The Lee universal expender is a handy little booger. I use one on diameters that don't yet have a Lyman M die or other means.

[roysha]

Someone mentioned the fact that the neck would expand unevenly if too large a bullet is seated. Unless the OUTSIDE of the neck is turned true it will expand unevenly regardless of the expanded used, whether it be a bullet or an expander die.

Ah yes, Nonte and his pencil thin waxed handlebar moustache. I enjoyed his writings.

Now, Carmichael , I remember when he took over for O'Connor at OL. I didn't really care for him or his writing but his humor (Handloader) was pretty good. Of course, as a kid, I worshiped O'Connor and felt anyone that had the audacity to attempt to take his place was an egotistical second stringer. Oh well.

[mpmarty]

My RCBS three die set for 45/70 has an excellent "M" type die for belling the mouth and expanding the forward portion of the case. Set to just mildly bell the mouth it opens the case so boolits of .459/.460 drop in about a quarter of an inch before coming to rest on the shoulder created by the die. I then seat to 2.55" and crimp in a Lee Factory collet type crimp die. Works well for me.

[Bret4207]

Ah yes, Nonte and his pencil thin waxed handlebar moustache. I enjoyed his writings.

Now, Carmichael , I remember when he took over for O'Connor at OL. I didn't really care for him or his writing but his humor (Handloader) was pretty good. Of course, as a kid, I worshiped O'Connor and felt anyone that had the audacity to attempt to take his place was an egotistical second stringer. Oh well.

Yeah, when ol' Jim took over for Jack the world was permanently altered. I never thought much of him till I found his old Handloader articles, same for Dave Scoville. They did know their stuff.

The ultimate sacrilege? Giving Craig Boddington Elmers old column title! Gun Notes belongs to Elmer, not that buffoon.

[pearson1662]

Which one is intended for the 41 Rem Mag?

[462]

According to the link I provided in post 16, this one may work: 10MM .408 .412 .409 .411

[Linstrum]

Even with the neck expanded to provide about a 0.001" press fit, I still have a bit of a lead shaving problem with cast in many of my rifle cartridges, so I still put a very slight bell on the case mouths when needed.

I never could afford any of the Leatherman multitools but I've used everything else for expanding case mouths, including needle nose pliers and my larger Phillips screwdrivers. My favorite, besides the actual proper tool, that is, :bigsmyl2: is a great big Phillips screwdriver - probably a #4. :redneck:

Yeah! Colonel George C. Nonte is responsible for causing more fun in my life than a little bit, one of his books got me into shooting black powder and because of him I have burned many, many pounds of The Holy Black. In 1974 I built an 11 gauge 36" double barrel muzzle loader goose gun that I was barely strong enough to handle. Alas, I no longer have that wonderful shotgun, it was destroyed in 2003 by a wildfire at my ranch that burned up my shop.

rl842

[goste]

Well, this brings up a noob question from me now...(sorry). I haven't loaded any cast rifle yet. Ya'll have solved all my pistol casting problems, to the extent I may be actually able to contribute something one day....

I didn't remember, until reading this thread, that most rifle dies don't really flare, or bell the mouth. My knowlege of the m dies, is strictly from what I've read here... in a nut shell, is there any other way? I understand the leatherman trick, but could I use the expander, out of my .303B die set, in my 30/30, 30/06? Or am I overlooking something????

The knowlege on this forum is acually sorta spooky sometimes......

[geargnasher]

Someone mentioned the fact that the neck would expand unevenly if too large a bullet is seated. Unless the OUTSIDE of the neck is turned true it will expand unevenly regardless of the expanded used, whether it be a bullet or an expander die.


That's true, but it's a lot worse trying to do it with a boolit base than with an expander ball. Soft/hard spots in the neck can also be a factor. The best solution, of course, is to turn all the necks for that gun's brass to an even thickness, draw in a lead pot, use the correct neck-only bushing in a competition die to avoid the expander all together and then just bellmouth a smidge with a "universal" expander, but for most cast stuff under 2k fps I don't bother with that kind of precision.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Well, this brings up a noob question from me now...(sorry). I haven't loaded any cast rifle yet. Ya'll have solved all my pistol casting problems, to the extent I may be actually able to contribute something one day....

I didn't remember, until reading this thread, that most rifle dies don't really flare, or bell the mouth. My knowlege of the m dies, is strictly from what I've read here... in a nut shell, is there any other way? I understand the leatherman trick, but could I use the expander, out of my .303B die set, in my 30/30, 30/06? Or am I overlooking something????

The knowlege on this forum is acually sorta spooky sometimes......

See the above posts and links to the Lyman "M" die, especially the link to lasc.us. here: http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_LymanMDies.htm

Gear