Jacket vs. Cast Lead?

[TonyM]

When shooting Jacketed AND Cast boolits, if they are the same weight/type/charge, should they be consistently accurate? Maybe another way to put this... what variables do you need to account for when trying to make a jacketed and a cast boolit shoot consistently comparable accuracy wise....???

[hickstick_10]

Purchase a reloading manual

Lyman has a good one for cast bullets exclusively.

[PatMarlin]

Richard LEE's Modern Reloading (current issue) great info on pressures for loading cast boolits as well.

[RobS]

They are not comparable other than weight regarding reloading for accuracy IMO. A powder charge of a particular powder which works well for jacketed bullets may not work at all for cast boolits even though the two projectiles are of the same weight. Chamber pressures for shooting cast boolits is an important consideration and powder selection directly impacts pressures. The twist rate of a firearm also has effect on the projectile and a faster twist may work well for a jacketed but place too much stress and strip the cast boolit causing leading in the bore and poor accuracy.

That doesn't go to say that one powder can't work well for both jacked and cast but as been stated a good reloading manual would be a good place to compare the differences.

[fredj338]

Revolver, pistol or rifle? There are diff variables, bit first is bullet fit to groove dia. With revolvers, cyl throat dia is important w/ relation to groove dia & bulle dia. Lots of little things to consider for optimum accuracy but I can often get better accuracy w/ good cast bullets than cheap jacketed bullets in handguns. In rifles, I only load cast in my 45-70 & bit in my 404jeffery. Accuracy is ok for 100yd plinking but I haven't found the perfect combo of powder/alloy bullet style to get the best out of the rifles.

[TonyM]

Very good info... I will definatly look into one of the books mentioned above... I sure would like to find some kind of happy medium with it comes to boolit price/accuracy/availability.

BTW this is a 1:14 16" barrel 458 SOCOM I am dealing with. I am using Lil Gun and H4198 Powders with 405 gr FN boolits @ 1500-1600ish FPS (Cast and Jacketed), and am not having much luck for accuracy with the cast bullets.

I'm wondering if there is a different powder I should try (The 458 SOCOM case is very short, so my limit with most charges is around 40.0ish).

Also, I've been doing some reading about shooting lead, and jacketed rounds through a barrel... some people are saying that that is a NO NO.... any input regarding that? I've heard this can be a problem with shooting soft lead... but do not know if that is the case with hard cast as well...

Thanks again for all the info..

[lwknight]

Barrel friction matters a lot. Lead bullets are a lot easier to push through a barrel than J bullets. IME a load that barely cycled the slide on my 9mm with J bullets would slam the stops and fling brass 20' with lead bullets of the same weight. I ended up reducing the load about 25% for lead.

[AzShooter]

There is a big difference between jacketed bullets and lead bullets. You have to test you ammo and make the best bullets you can to get them to shoot well. In my 45-70 i weighed each of my bullets and they had to be + - .5 grains to be kept for competition.

I've had jacketed ammo that would be + - 5 grains from the same lot. That ammo I consider to be junk.

Read Veral Smith's book http://lbtmoulds.com/ on getting lead bullets to be as accurate as jacketed. It takes some experimenting but I've learned a lot reading it.

[44man]

Most of my work is with revolvers and I have no problem getting cast to shoot as good or better then jacketed. I can use more powder with cast.
Even the few rifles we work with will never take a back seat with cast.

[Bass Ackward]

Maybe another way to put this... what variables do you need to account for when trying to make a jacketed and a cast boolit shoot consistently comparable accuracy wise....???


Read the threads on this site.

[GabbyM]

Very good info... I will definatly look into one of the books mentioned above... I sure would like to find some kind of happy medium with it comes to boolit price/accuracy/availability.

BTW this is a 1:14 16" barrel 458 SOCOM I am dealing with. I am using Lil Gun and H4198 Powders with 405 gr FN boolits @ 1500-1600ish FPS (Cast and Jacketed), and am not having much luck for accuracy with the cast bullets.

I'm wondering if there is a different powder I should try (The 458 SOCOM case is very short, so my limit with most charges is around 40.0ish).

Also, I've been doing some reading about shooting lead, and jacketed rounds through a barrel... some people are saying that that is a NO NO.... any input regarding that? I've heard this can be a problem with shooting soft lead... but do not know if that is the case with hard cast as well...

Thanks again for all the info..

“1500 to 1600is” is a lofty goal for a plain based cast bullet in a 1-14” twist barrel.
You are probably exceeding the velocity and pressure limit of your bullet. I also suspect the bullets are traveling faster than you think. The start load of 4198 in a 45-70 even with the much larger case is 31.5 grains for 1312 fps. Using a smaller socom case that velocity should only go up. You mentioned you could get 40 grains of 4198 in the socom case. 40.0 grains in a 45-70 is listed as a 1687 fps load with 405 grain cast. That velocity is posible with a plain based bullet but since you're not having good results I'd say it's to much. I'd try to get it working at 1300 to 1350 fps before running faster. Off the top of my head I'd expect a velocity of 1400 to 1500 fps to be a good shooting range for a plain base bullet.

45-70 barrels are generally 1-18” or 1-20” twist. 458 Win Mag is 1-14" twist.

After shooting jacketed bullets you'll want to clean out all copper fouling before shooting lead. As the copper acts like sand paper on lead. But that's not your problem.

[TonyM]

“1500 to 1600is” is a lofty goal for a plain based cast bullet in a 1-14” twist barrel.
You are probably exceeding the velocity and pressure limit of your bullet. I also suspect the bullets are traveling faster than you think. The start load of 4198 in a 45-70 even with the much larger case is 31.5 grains for 1312 fps. Using a smaller socom case that velocity should only go up. You mentioned you could get 40 grains of 4198 in the socom case. 40.0 grains in a 45-70 is listed as a 1687 fps load with 405 grain cast. That velocity is posible with a plain based bullet but since you're not having good results I'd say it's to much. I'd try to get it working at 1300 to 1350 fps before running faster. Off the top of my head I'd expect a velocity of 1400 to 1500 fps to be a good shooting range for a plain base bullet.

45-70 barrels are generally 1-18” or 1-20” twist. 458 Win Mag is 1-14" twist.

After shooting jacketed bullets you'll want to clean out all copper fouling before shooting lead. As the copper acts like sand paper on lead. But that's not your problem.

Thats kindof my thoughts on it as well. What I'm going to do is work down in 1gr increments, and if I can find accuracy/consistancy, than I'll go back up in 1/3gr.

I really don't want to be around 1200-1300fps... I'll have to find something else at that point. Idealy, I want to be around 1800FPS. With how the 1500FPS rounds felt, there is plenty of room for more umph, but I could probably live with 1400. Much lower than that though, and I'm well below my goal... [smilie=b:

[Larry Gibson]

I concur with GabbyM's; “1500 to 1600is” is a lofty goal for a plain based cast bullet in a 1-14” twist barrel. That is especially the case if the cast bullet has a bevel base. Drop the velocity down to the 1200 - 1400 fps range and try them. If you are not casting your own yet when you do get a GC'd mould. The RCBS 45-300-FN should be a very good cast bullet in that cartridge/rifle and you can push it to 1800 fps with the full accuracy potentiall of your rifle, assuming of course you can hold on to it;-)

Larry Gibson

[44man]

I don't believe so. My BFR 45-70 has a 1 in 14" twist and I shoot PB boolits at 1632 fps and have reached 1800 fps. Now the jump to the forcing cone and rifling has not hurt my shooting in the least. No leading and accuracy better then most rifles.
There is no way I would change my twist rate. Ask me if I want a 1 in 20" rate in my revolver and I will tell you where to get off the train. I wish my 45-70 Browning had a 1 in 14".
Slow twist shooters are close range shooters!

[TonyM]

I have a Marlin 1895 Guide Gun, and it also has a 1:14 twist... I guess I just assumed if mine did, than most others did too... :?:

[GabbyM]

Twist rate is just a small variable in a big equation. So let's not get hung up on that. Or the bevel based vs flat base theories.

44man was that BFR 445-70 with a 405 grain bullet? Just curious.

We need to remember the 458 SOCOM is a miniature case compared to a 45-70. Also being fairly new there is scarce data available for it. I've done goolge search and all I turn up is the jacketed data TonyM has linked to. I've yet to see a single cast bullet load published. Even the load data which is published is only wildcatters load notes. No pressure reading instruments or any other detailed test. Which is why in my previous post I used a 45-70 as comparison in charge weight. Since I think we can safely assume that if a 45-70 will push a 405 grain bullet to X velocity with Y amount of Z powder then a SOCOM should at least reach that velocity and possibly greater and almost certainly with a higher peak pressure with a more sudden pressure curve line. However just because a 45-70 can shoot a 405 grain bullet to 1717 fps over 40.5 grains of 4198 at 27,500 C.U.P. Doesn't mean a 458 SOCAOM can do it. But then you can put more pressure than that behind a plain based bullet.

I've been hoping to fish out a few loads from members here. TonyM searched this forum out because there is no information available on cast bullets in this round. He has received replies as to read the manual but there is no manual on this one. I'd like to see us all put our heads together to work out solutions.

Tony posted in another thread a photo of the commercial cast Magma single lube grove 405 grain bullets. Hardness can only be assumed. Perhaps 2/6 alloy at a BHN #15 but we can only guess. Size was .458”. Typical “hard cast” hard lube bullet.

I'll be sending tony some of my 410 grain gas checked bullets this week. He stated he wants a bullet which will hit a 1,600 pound moose in the shoulder. Travel though and out the other shoulder and come out looking like it could be loaded again. Sounds like he has read Fin Aggaurd (sp) in the old NRA Hunter magazines. Have some cast up from straight 2/6 foundry alloy and was thinking of other alloys. Sixteen to seventeen hundred fps isn't all that tough a challenge. But just fo sure was thinking of adding another 2% tin for toughness. Close to a true Lyman #2.

[TonyM]

Twist rate is just a small variable in a big equation. So let's not get hung up on that. Or the bevel based vs flat base theories.

44man was that BFR 445-70 with a 405 grain bullet? Just curious.

We need to remember the 458 SOCOM is a miniature case compared to a 45-70. Also being fairly new there is scarce data available for it. I've done goolge search and all I turn up is the jacketed data TonyM has linked to. I've yet to see a single cast bullet load published. Even the load data which is published is only wildcatters load notes. No pressure reading instruments or any other detailed test. Which is why in my previous post I used a 45-70 as comparison in charge weight. Since I think we can safely assume that if a 45-70 will push a 405 grain bullet to X velocity with Y amount of Z powder then a SOCOM should at least reach that velocity and possibly greater and almost certainly with a higher peak pressure with a more sudden pressure curve line. However just because a 45-70 can shoot a 405 grain bullet to 1717 fps over 40.5 grains of 4198 at 27,500 C.U.P. Doesn't mean a 458 SOCAOM can do it. But then you can put more pressure than that behind a plain based bullet.

I've been hoping to fish out a few loads from members here. TonyM searched this forum out because there is no information available on cast bullets in this round. He has received replies as to read the manual but there is no manual on this one. I'd like to see us all put our heads together to work out solutions.

Tony posted in another thread a photo of the commercial cast Magma single lube grove 405 grain bullets. Hardness can only be assumed. Perhaps 2/6 alloy at a BHN #15 but we can only guess. Size was .458”. Typical “hard cast” hard lube bullet.

I'll be sending tony some of my 410 grain gas checked bullets this week. He stated he wants a bullet which will hit a 1,600 pound moose in the shoulder. Travel though and out the other shoulder and come out looking like it could be loaded again. Sounds like he has read Fin Aggaurd (sp) in the old NRA Hunter magazines. Have some cast up from straight 2/6 foundry alloy and was thinking of other alloys. Sixteen to seventeen hundred fps isn't all that tough a challenge. But just fo sure was thinking of adding another 2% tin for toughness. Close to a true Lyman #2.

My new brass should be in next week as well (I've already used all my brass on the 1400ishFPS loads. I am also getting a chrono as well, so I'll atleast be able to get accurate info in that regard.

I also bought a Leupold scout scope, to replace my crappy NC Star scope thats on it now (Actually I just put it back on the 223 upper today, and resighted it in..)

This way I can eliminate crappy optics from the equation, and be able to get a real handle on the accuracy.

When Mike's boolits come in, and my new brass get here, I will be doing A LOT of different loads. I am going to probably dumb the rest of the cast bullets I have now down to around 1200-1300FPSish, and see how accurate I can make them (Since I still have about 180 of them left.)

If I can make these GC ones work the way I want them too... I'll throw my "J"s away... out of spite because of how much more expensive they are than cast boolits :neutral:
and will do essentially the same thing, just better... :Fire:

Anyways, thanks for all the input, and I'll keep this thread updated with my results as I go.

[HangFireW8]

I also bought a Leupold scout scope, to replace my crappy NC Star scope thats on it now (Actually I just put it back on the 223 upper today, and resighted it in..)

Your NC Star may never be the same after being on a 45 caliber rifle. Leupold will tell you that the most reliable scopes for heavy kickers are fixed power/low power scopes, with small objectives, which are simple, strong and lightweight. So, you definitely went the right direction with the scout.

If you are going to learn to love the 458 SOCOM, you have to learn to love trajectory. Once you learn to love trajectory, you'll find the velocity doesn't matter so much. You have to know range and calculate hold-off anyway, and guess what? The slower bullets are more accurate and less wind sensitive because they don't go transonic. Read the 22 forums and find out why the accuracy guys there shoot Standard Velocity and not High.

-HF

[quilbilly]

If you own a chronograph it might be worth checking the velocities when the projectiles are the same weight and same powder charge. In my experience, my cast lead bullets have been consistently higher velocity than jacketed of the same size. From these pages I have learned that a lubed cast lead boolit has less friction traveling down the barrel than a non-lubed jacketed. That makes sense. In my Blackhawk 41 mag the difference is about 100 fps. In my T/C carbines such as the 357 max caliber the difference is close to 200 fps.

[TonyM]

Your NC Star may never be the same after being on a 45 caliber rifle. Leupold will tell you that the most reliable scopes for heavy kickers are fixed power/low power scopes, with small objectives, which are simple, strong and lightweight. So, you definitely went the right direction with the scout.

If you are going to learn to love the 458 SOCOM, you have to learn to love trajectory. Once you learn to love trajectory, you'll find the velocity doesn't matter so much. You have to know range and calculate hold-off anyway, and guess what? The slower bullets are more accurate and less wind sensitive because they don't go transonic. Read the 22 forums and find out why the accuracy guys there shoot Standard Velocity and not High.

-HF

That NC is a *** for sure... but it does seem to hold zero OK with the 223.... I'll know for sure next time I take it out and see where its hitting...lol I am looking forward to the scout scope. I already have all my rail furniture setup for it... it might look kinda goofy on this platform, but I think its going to work out great. I have a Scout scope on my 45-70, but I dare not touch it, because its been dead nuts for years... and I don't want to screw that system up....

I hope that trajectory variance won't be much of an issue, as almost all of my intended shots will be 150Yrds or less... most being less then 100yrds.

As the loads develop, I will definatly check and see what kind of drop I get and where....


If you own a chronograph it might be worth checking the velocities when the projectiles are the same weight and same powder charge. In my experience, my cast lead bullets have been consistently higher velocity than jacketed of the same size. From these pages I have learned that a lubed cast lead boolit has less friction traveling down the barrel than a non-lubed jacketed. That makes sense. In my Blackhawk 41 mag the difference is about 100 fps. In my T/C carbines such as the 357 max caliber the difference is close to 200 fps.

When I get my chrono in, I'm going to start with the loads I have for the "J"s, and knock them back 25% or so.... and start going up from there (When the GC boolits come in anyway...). I intend on using the same powders however, because from what I've read, the 2 I'm going to be running (lil gun especially), are about as close as I can get for this case size and FPS goals.

[44man]

Gabby, the BFR will shoot about anything. The 300 gr Hornady is fantastic. Some of my best groups are with my 317 gr boolit.
I have 420 gr boolits that shoot very small groups and have worked to 500 gr for fun.
I made a 378 gr PB WFN and it shoots super too. So far I have not found any boolit the gun does not like. Dubber sent me some 446 gr boolits that also shot great.
Here are some I use but are not all I have tested. The gun is a pleasure to work with.

[44man]

I don't know about large animals like buf or moose but watch boolit hardness when velocity goes up. I have poked pretty pencil holes in deer with hard boolits going too fast. Too soft has destroyed a lot of meat.
I feel 1400 fps is tops with hard cast, from that point up, boolits start to need expansion but the 45-70 is like the bunny that keeps going and going and you will find it hard to stop many boolits in an animal.
A big, heavy boolit just lumbering along does not seem to want to stop.
Match alloy, boolit weight and velocity to the animal size.
There is a reason the 45-70 has lived so long and even a BP load with a soft, heavy boolit is deadly on anything that walks.
Smokeless powder is the reason to alter alloys because of different initial thump and higher velocities.

[44man]

Twist rates---uuuum, I confess to being a fan of faster rates. Guys shooting closer ranges to 100 yards like a slow twist to prevent boolit rotation around the flight path that will open groups. But you can get rid of the rotation, corkscrew effect by reducing velocity or using a heavier boolit. The problem with a slow twist is a boolit can become unstable at long ranges. Your velocity limit with the caliber means you can't spin up the boolit enough for stability.
Over spin can be worked around but there is not a thing you can do with under spin. You will have a one boolit gun and a one velocity gun. Most times you have a one range gun.
The 1 in 38" Marlin .44 is a 50 yard gun. A 1 in 20" can extend range a great deal but a 1 in 16" can blow your mind with long range accuracy. Yet, close range accuracy is in the cards too.
Twist is the reason I never bought a 22-250, it is too slow, needs light bullets and range is reduced.
Magnum research is the leader with revolver twist rates. The range of boolit weights they can shoot is astounding.

[TonyM]

When I find a good accurate, hi velocity load... We're going to do some penetration tests with it I think.

Then we will dumm them down to 1200-1400FPS and repeat the penetration test..

I've heard of guys using wet newspapers as media for this... anyone got any ideas for a homogeneous compound of some kind?

[44man]

When I find a good accurate, hi velocity load... We're going to do some penetration tests with it I think.

Then we will dumm them down to 1200-1400FPS and repeat the penetration test..

I've heard of guys using wet newspapers as media for this... anyone got any ideas for a homogeneous compound of some kind?
We did it for fun but there is nothing like an animal itself to see what your boolit does.
We stacked soaked phone books and paper. After blowing paper to shreds and taking layers off we got down to 36". The 420 gr .475 shot through the 36", a 1" piece of wood and went almost full depth into oak firewood in my wood bin. With full paper it went 37".
The 300 gr Hornady 45-70 went 11" and broke up. My 378 gr WFN went 24".
The 240 gr .44 jacketed went 11" and the RD 265 gr went 33".
All of my guns with cast, the .44, .45, 475 and 45-70 shot through 16" trees and kept going.
The .475 blew up 4, gallon jugs of water, split 2 more and went through 14 jugs, all we had.
It is a lot of fun but none of it tells you what happens in an animal.
I can only say it is a LOT of fun but also a lot of work and I am lucky since the paper mill is not far away. I can get paper and take back what we shoot.

[Canuck Bob]

I'm a newbie but one thing seems consistent with cast compared to jacketed, velocity. Jacketed bullets go up or down the velocity curve for a given rifle easily. Bullet construction for terminal performance requirements is about it for decisions.

With cast it seems there are steps that increase complication as one goes up the velocity curve.

[noylj]

If you are firing a rifle that cycles by gas feed, you can have problems with lead and lead bullet lubricant plugging up the gas feed.
Jacketed bullets should be matched to the barrel's groove-to-groove diameter. Lead bullets should be at least 0.001" over groove diameter.

[BruceB]

"If you are firing a rifle that cycles by gas feed, you can have problems with lead and lead bullet lubricant plugging up the gas feed."

Not so, at least with most rifles of my experience. Proper cast-bullet loads work just fine in gas guns such as my Garand and M1A. Both of these rifles have fired strings of over six hundred consecutive cast-bullet loads each, and both were functioning perfectly at the end of the 600-round strings. This was accomplished without cleaning of any sort.

I do have a new DSA FAL that's giving me some trouble right now (not from gas problems), but it's the exception to many other gas-guns which work beautifully with cast bullets.

[truckmsl]

Many thousands of cast through my AK with nary a problem.