Rx7 - 45-70

[gefiltephish]

Yesterday I picked up my first rifle, a new Marlin 1895, haven't had a chance to shoot it yet. Looking over some ammo an older brother just sent to me, I see one box he has labeled "58.0gr Rx7, 395gr RN Lino Hardcast". And he means pure lino. I don't think they could be scratched with a hacksaw. He used to have an 1895 CB, but I have no idea how old this ammo is. From all the data I've found, this load is pretty stout...or beyond. I'm not so sure about firing *these* babies off.

There are also quite a few labeled "405, 30gr XMP 5744". These are jacketed soft points, and this load appears to be max.

Dieing to shoot this gun this tomorrow, but I don't want to die doing it. All I have on hand is pistol powder and primers, nothing for rifle. Whata ya'll think - shoot the 405's?

[softpoint]

According to the data I have here, the 405's with 5744 should be OK. That load of 58gr. RL7 won't be OK. According to data I have, thats about 10 gr over max. Pull a bullet out of a couple of each load and weigh the powder. Could that 58 gr. be a misprint? One of my sources gives 48 gr. of RL7 with a bullet of approximately that same weight.
Be safe![smilie=2:

[muskeg13]

Please listen to "softpoint". I wouldn't shoot the ones loaded with that much RL7. I have shot as much as 47 gr of RL7 with a similar RCBS boolit that weighs 415 with my alloy. Those loads averaged 1925, which is plenty stout at 11 grains less than what you have. Don't take the chance and possibly ruin your new rifle and risk serious personal injury. It isn't worth it.

If you have to shoot your new rifle now, go buy some factory 405s.

[JJC]

I second both these posts. I pulled the trigger on a stout load during developement and the gun made a funny noise like a ping. I was still below published max!

[gefiltephish]

I just pulled five, sure enough they're 48gr not 58. I found 2 bullet styles - RN and RNFP. They weigh about 395. The RNFP only has one grease groove and the RN has 3 but only one is filled. Odd? I'd like to reload these a little milder, but I'm finding little data for this powder above 385gr. MD Smith's pages show 400gr JSP Modern @ 45 - 49. I'm thinking that these super hard bullets may be ok with this data, and 45gr should be a good load. Sound safe enough?

I have some unique, Hornady 300gr JHP's and large pistol primers. I have seen folks post about using unique for some mild loads. Unfortunately, I can't find any published data for this. Any suggestions for sources, or just a bad idea altogether?

[WHITETAIL]

gefiltephish, Welcome to the world of 45-70.
I would say go out and buy some store bought rounds first.
Then get the Lyman book and start there.
Do not guess at this, follow the book.:cbpour:

[gefiltephish]

I have Lyman 49, Modern Reloading and Alliance Reloader's Guide (and loadbooks for 9mm and 45acp). I also frequent online resources, Hodgdon, Accurate, Alliance, MD Smith and Handloads.

The problem of course is matching load data with components on hand, not always possible. That said, since Lyman 49 gives rx7 data for 300gr jacketed @ 38 - 45, and I have such bullets, I think I would be wise to use that for today. I'll make up a few at 38, 39 and 40.

[44man]

The 45-70 is a great round and DOES NOT HAVE TO BE SHOT AS HOT AS IT CAN BE MADE!
For hunting, a leisure boolit, cast soft is super. Too hard and fast is no good. Hard is better for target shooting.

[home in oz]

A good rule of thumb is to ONLY shoot your own reloads, no matter who loaded them.

[jlchucker]

48 grains of RL7 and the RCBS 405 Gr out of a 45-70 is plenty of thump! Think not? Go to your range, and shoot it off a bench wearing only a t-shirt. You'll probably get a good group, but also a black-and-blue shoulder. 44Man is right about the 45-70 being a great round that doesn't need to be hot-rodded. Just accurate should be plenty enough with that caliber for most all hunting.

[Ramsgate]

You say you have pistol powders and primers. You can't do better. I've recently used Bullseye, VV N330/340 and 350, Unique, Universal Clays, 540 or pretty much whatever was handy. Google Lever Gun Performance Studies and be prepared to be amazed. No wads no fillers and a whole lot of fun. Now when you decide to get serious about heavy duty thumping and bumping, you'll have to do due diligence and compare sources but you won't want to shoot many of the big guys. I have a crescent butt plate and if I can't shoot something all day I'm disappointed. It's fortunate that the .45-70 can do it all. There is that trajectory thing but closer is better anyway. Good luck.

[Maven]

"I have some unique, Hornady 300gr JHP's and large pistol primers. I have seen folks post about using unique for some mild loads. Unfortunately, I can't find any published data for this. Any suggestions for sources, or just a bad idea altogether?"

gefiltephish, The late Frank Marshall of the CBA recommended 13grs. of Unique with a variety of CB's in the .45-70. I tried it in my Marlin, but with LR primers and was very pleased with the results: Very accurate; little recoil.

[qajaq59]

A good rule of thumb is to ONLY shoot your own reloads, no matter who loaded them. And it is a VERY wise rule.

[TCLouis]

Maven
I have used 10-13 grains of a Milsurp powder that gives me Unique velocity numbers (shot side by side over a chronograph) and 10.5, WLP behind 340 and 378 grain (Ranch Dog's 350 in my alloy) boolits and that load gives me essentially 1100 fps.

[gefiltephish]

I made it to the range today. Started off with the 300jhp's with 38, 39 and 40gr rx7. I only made up 2 of each, but they were really nice to shoot. Then I shot some of the 5744's. YIKES! Probably great if you're trying to knock down 2 elephants with one round.

[Freightman]

A good rule of thumb is to ONLY shoot your own reloads, no matter who loaded them.
Rule #2 double ck yours.

[Maven]

gefiltephish, I don't know how much 5744 you used, but start (and maybe finish) with 25 or 26 grs.

TCLouis, 17-18grs. WC 820 is an accurate and mild load as well. I use a very thin paper disk, which I cut from magazine subscription cards with a 7/16" arch punch, over the powder to ensure it stays where it belongs. A dowel or long golf tee is perfect for seating the disk.

[mpmarty]

Interesting thread. I just loaded a hundred 45/70s with 44gr of RL-7 using both 350 and 425 gr Ranch Dog slugs. Start load listed from Lyman was 40gr and max load listed 48gr so I split the difference. I never try max loads in 45/70 but frequently do so in my 7.62 Nato /308 rifles with good results. I don't pay much attention to the supposed "difference" between the Nato and 308 rounds as my rifle is factory stamped with both on the receiver. Yup it says 308 Win. and 7.62X51 right there in plain sight. Having many boxes of LC 86 National Match around being able to shoot either is neat.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I'd pull those lino hardcast, and mix them with a bunch of pure, don't need that hard . . .

[gefiltephish]

gefiltephish, I don't know how much 5744 you used, but start (and maybe finish) with 25 or 26 grs.

TCLouis, 17-18grs. WC 820 is an accurate and mild load as well. I use a very thin paper disk, which I cut from magazine subscription cards with a 7/16" arch punch, over the powder to ensure it stays where it belongs. A dowel or long golf tee is perfect for seating the disk.

The 5744's have 30gr. I'm going to pull a bunch of them and try lighter loads as you suggest. Just looked again at Lyman 49 and see for the 457193, min to max is 32 - 36gr. And I thought 30gr was tough. I must be one of those girly-men! I wonder how much of the recoil difference was also due to bullet weight (300 vs 395).

I take it that the disk is to keep light charges at the primer end. Sounds like a good idea.

I heard from a brother in Maine today that, in the news a guy with the same rifle "blew" himself up. I just found an article on it http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/09/robert-farago/marlin-lever-action-45-70-explodes-guns-are-safe/

[gefiltephish]

I'd pull those lino hardcast, and mix them with a bunch of pure, don't need that hard . . .
Yeah, that occurred to me too. I have lots of pure, range scrap, and some ww, antimony and tin. I'm waiting for the Mihec 459122 to be completed. I don't have any other suitable molds yet.

[cajun shooter]

Bullets that hard are not the best alloy to shoot . Mix in some pure and load it down so that you can shoot and enjoy that new rifle. How fast does a 45 slug have to go to punch a hole in paper. The paper they make targets with today is not that thick!! Slow down and have FUN!!!

[thx997303]

Did anybody else follow the link back to the original news story?

Some fanboy claims "It is COMMON KNOWLEDGE in the hunting world that Marlin lever action rifles are the least safe firearms."

I had to laugh.

[josper]

In the marlin 1895 GG you want to keep the chamber pressure at or below 40000 PSI. 48gr rx7 will give you 58,000 PSI. with that 405gr bullet. Dont do it. I'm shooting the RCBS 405gr with 40.5gr IMR4198 and is as potent as you need to be.This is listed in the Lyman manual as 1717fps.

[josper]

Did anybody else follow the link back to the original news story?

Some fanboy claims "It is COMMON KNOWLEDGE in the hunting world that Marlin lever action rifles are the least safe firearms."

I had to laugh.

Total BS

[35remington]

Josper, the Marlin will handle 48.0 RL7 and the 405 just fine. It will kick a bit, but it's not at the limits of the rifle in any way, assuming we're talking about suitable 405's, as most are.

Take it from a guy who's done it repeatedly, as have many others.

[excess650]

In the marlin 1895 GG you want to keep the chamber pressure at or below 40000 PSI. 48gr rx7 will give you 58,000 PSI. with that 405gr bullet. Dont do it. I'm shooting the RCBS 405gr with 40.5gr IMR4198 and is as potent as you need to be.This is listed in the Lyman manual as 1717fps.

josper, where did you get your pressure numbers for Reloader 7?

Speer #11 lists 48gr under the 400gr as their STARTING load at 1710fps and go to 52gr for 1860fps, in WW cases with CCI 200 primers. That data is limited to 28K.

Speer #13 is a bit more conservative, and lists 45-49gr Relaoder 7 under the 400gr for 1677-1828fps for lever-actions. Their bolt action and strong single shot data goes to 52gr and 1934fps with same OAL, same cases, but up to 35K.

I have some Accurate Arms data that lists 33gr 5744 under a 405gr cast bullet for 1589fps for lever actions and single shots.

[mpmarty]

Wardens say a man from Peru [Maine] was hurt Saturday when the lever of his rifle exploded,”
Whoever proof read this never had a clue about firearms.

[thx997303]

Wonder if you could even get enough explosive into the lever to make it explode? :veryconfu

[qajaq59]

If you are looking for accuracy in a newspaper these days you're going to be vastly disappointed!

[onesonek]

In the marlin 1895 GG you want to keep the chamber pressure at or below 40000 PSI. 48gr rx7 will give you 58,000 PSI. with that 405gr bullet. Dont do it. I'm shooting the RCBS 405gr with 40.5gr IMR4198 and is as potent as you need to be.This is listed in the Lyman manual as 1717fps.
I'd like to know the scource of 58,000 psi also. I also believe the Marlin will take a tad more than 40,000 psi. Otherwise the .450 Marlin wouldn't be chambered. Unless you meant 40,000 CUP?

[frkelly74]

I'd pull those lino hardcast, and mix them with a bunch of pure, don't need that hard . . .


Or at least shoot them where you can get them back to recycle into some softer boolets

[thx997303]

I'd like to know the scource of 58,000 psi also. I also believe the Marlin will take a tad more than 40,000 psi. Otherwise the .450 Marlin wouldn't be chambered. Unless you meant 40,000 CUP?

I would personally keep your average pressure to 35,000 PSI in a Marlin.

I believe the ceiling is 42,000 PSI.

[onesonek]

I would personally keep your average pressure to 35,000 PSI in a Marlin.

I believe the ceiling is 42,000 PSI.

I know what you're saying,,,,and with a cast 400+ grainer, I don't know that I need 35,000 psi, some may want a BHN 25, and or want top velocity. Those pressures are likely more suited for the J types?
I was just real curious where the numbers come from, as,,,,,while the Marlin is new to me the .45-70 is not. That load in question sounded aweful familiar from the days of loading my Contender with 400gr. Speers. Looking back, that is Speer's starting load in the Marlin with the 400 JFP which also worked well enough in the Contender. With cast, that load would generate less pressure I'm thinking. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that point.

As for the upper limit, I don't see PSI listed for the .45-70 in any manuals that I have on hand, rather CUP. I know there is no real hard fast formula for converting CUP to PSI,,,although Hodgdon list the .45-70 max around 39-40,000 CUP with the .450 M at 42-42,500 PSI. My thoughts are, there isn't one bit of difference in the rifle, only the brass. One if so desired, can likely load the .45-70 close to that 42000 psi, ableit at the cost of brass life. ( goes back also, to each rifle/firearm has it's own limits). Is that necessary,,,that's for each to his own I think. Some firearms I push on the warm side,,, with the Marlin and the .45-70, I personally don't have that need.

[Rico1950]

SAMMI specs. Generally PSI values are "higher" than CUP.
270 WIN. 52,000 CUP- 65,000 PSI
30 Carbine 40,000 CUP- 40,000 PSI
30-06 50,000 CUP- 60,000 PSI
30-30 38,000 CUP- 42,000 PSI
303 45,000 CUP- 49,000 PSI
308 WIN 52,000 CUP- 60,000 PSI
8x57 Mauser 37,000 CUP- 35,000 PSI (some cartridges are exceptions)
35 Rem. 35,000 CUP- 33,500 PSI
45-70 Gov't 28000 CUP- 28,000 PSI
SOURCE LYMAN 47th MANUAL PAGE 93.

[onesonek]

SAMMI specs. Generally PSI values are "higher" than CUP.
270 WIN. 52,000 CUP- 65,000 PSI
30 Carbine 40,000 CUP- 40,000 PSI
30-06 50,000 CUP- 60,000 PSI
30-30 38,000 CUP- 42,000 PSI
303 45,000 CUP- 49,000 PSI
308 WIN 52,000 CUP- 60,000 PSI
8x57 Mauser 37,000 CUP- 35,000 PSI (some cartridges are exceptions)
35 Rem. 35,000 CUP- 33,500 PSI
45-70 Gov't 28000 CUP- 28,000 PSI
SOURCE LYMAN 47th MANUAL PAGE 93.

Now I'm no engineer,,,,, but I would suspect the if all the testing were done with the same equipment with the same parameters, the correlation between CUP and PSI would be constant. Maybe somebody here knows?
Considering, all SAMMI specs are supplied by manufactures and not actual test by the Institute itself,,,I also think the "exceptions" are even, more suspect to interpretation. Even more so if one considers the the make or type of firearm. Case in point being the .45-70 Gov't listed,,these are TrapDoor balloon head pressures, well below what the Marlin and stronger Arms can handle. Another would be the 8x57,,,I personally don't know the older Mauser action, but I have no doubt's in a stronger action, one could load higher pressures.

As with all loading, common sense dictates caution,,,,but in the end, manuals are nothing but guides, and the firearm itself will tell what it's limits are.

[35remington]

There's no correlation between CUP and psi.

The internet "formulae" advanced in an attempt to do so are quite in error.

[onesonek]

I agree, there is no correlation between the two. But what I meant is,,,if a testing lab, first set up with said with the CUP method, then switched the exact same load to a PSI system and so on with other rounds,,,one would think the difference between the 2 would have a constant. But when you have many testing under or with different testing components you are going to see discrepancies. Still not sure my thoughts are clear here, but like I said I'm no engineer

[mpmarty]

The 8X57 pressures are kept low by the factories due to the early 8X57 rifles from Mauser Werke that all had bore diameters of .318 rather than the later 8X57JS rifles with a standard .323 bore diameter. Firing a .323 diameter bullet in a .318 diameter bore would raise those pressures quite a bit. I'd not like to try it in an 1888 commission Mauser thank you.

[MtGun44]

Apparently the relationship between CUP and psi with a piezoelectric sensor is not
easily calculated. The experts say 'don't even try'.

Personally I had very inconsistent ignition with Reloader 7 in .45-70 and will not use
it. I recommend 57 gr W748 under a 405 Jbullet or 405 boolit for 1750 in my GG and
excellent accy at Trapdoor pressure levels due to the slow powder.

Bill

[BABore]

The 450 Marlin has a different bbl thread type than the 45-70 in the Marlin 1895 action. Supposed to be slightly stronger and leaves a bit more meat at the weak point. The 30 and 338 Marlin express rounds use the same thread type as the 450IIRC. Not alot of difference for all practical purposes, but they are different.

[thx997303]

I have been told that they use different materials and heat treating.

I know the 45-70 barrels use a very tall square cut thread.

[onesonek]

Thread type and HT is news to me,,,but very good to know!!!!! Otherwise I was pretty much going by pressure data from Hodgdon. Very few if any others actually show their pressure data.

[josper]

I use Quickloads software. I cross referance loads in differant manuals and recheck them using quickloads. There is also an editor for realguns.com that has done some extensive reserch with the Marlin 45-70 and I sugest looking it up .He has a wealth of information.

[josper]

I went back to double check my data and I found if I went with the lyman 457193 bullet the chamber pressure droped to 48,000 psi range with 48gr Rx7.I'm not tring to sound like a smart a-- but I think you are on the razors edge with that load.I will pray for your continued good luck. There are other factors to think about and one is bolt shear pressures.

[josper]

It's all about what works for you.If you have a load that is performing how you want grate.Powders I have had good results with include IMR4198 ,IMR3031,Benchmark,and RX7.I like this forum because of all the different viewpoints.Sift through them and keep some and discard others. [I am talking about what pretains to 45-70 stuff.]

[63 Shiloh]

Benchmark has been a very accurate powder in my XLR 45/70.

My max load is 58.0gn of Benchmark under a 405gn RCBS lubed with BAC.

This load will shoot under an inch at 100 yds off the bench.

Recoil is stout, I only use it for shooting big bores and donkey.

Mike

[josper]

Here is a very good artical. www.realguns.com/archives/073.htm

[home in oz]

Break the loads down. Reload AFTER you have researched a moderate load in a reloading manual.

That rifle is too neat a rifle to mess up.

[35remington]

I'd reload my own too. As in pull the bullets you've got and start over. Best person to trust is yourself if the other guy is an unknown, as they are most of the time.

Once you do, you'll discover that with an appropriate bullet of around 400 grains 48 of Reloder 7 is by no means overboard and no prayer is needed. Nor is it over 40,000 psi with the correct bullet of ca. 400 grains, and with most it's considerably under that in pressure. "Bolt shear" is well within the Marlin's envelope of safety.

Recoil is up there, though, and backed off substantially it is still a killer.

[Frank]

josper "Here is a very good artical.

I read the article. That Joe from Realguns says when he was selecting bullets for the 45/70 Marlin test, he said and I quote


I'm not a cast bullet fan, please don't write and tell me I should be.

Just like that, without any qualification. So he steers people away from cast.

Then he turns the whole test into a speed contest. He says the goal is to achieve 2,000 fps with a 400 grn bullet. All his loads are the highest possible for each powder.

But to top it all off, Joe then complains about the recoil and a bloody shoulder. He then does an extended article on reducing the jolt from what he calls "fence post" stock. Here's what he says,


The gun is laid out like a fence post. It is light, made to come straight back at the shooter and has a recoil pad that's as non-shock absorbing as a brick. Marlin should have tossed in the extra "buck-fifty" for a quality Sorbothane pad. The muzzle brake, while seemingly ineffective in reducing rearward thrust, did seem very good at scorching the eyebrows off of shooters immediately to the right and left of the muzzle. Yes, the Guide Gun has maintained it's traditional saddle carbine heritage, but not without a penalty to the shooter. It is not made to shoot volumes of heavily charged ammo from a bench at paper targets. At 2,000 fps for a 400 grain bullet, and 3,500 ft/lbs of ME, there aren't too many moose, black bear or elk that would duck this gun, at least well inside of 200 yards; actually, lets call it 150 yards.


Maybe Joe doesn't understand the 45-70. The gun and caliber was slinging cast lead for hunters and the military before his granddaddy was a baby. And when you use the rifle the correct way, using a cast boolit, and not try to make it into a speed contest, the factory recoil pad, as well as the traditional stock look and work great.

[josper]

If you dug a little deeper and read the rest of his articles,you would find several dedicated to cast bullets. I guess if one tries hard enough ,one can distort anything to suit his way of thinking.good luck with that.

[gefiltephish]

Break the loads down. Reload AFTER you have researched a moderate load in a reloading manual.
I did.


That rifle is too neat a rifle to mess up.
I'd rather not mess up any gun, especially when I'm holding it!

[Frank]

josper "If you dug a little deeper and read the rest of his articles,you would find several dedicated to cast bullets. I guess if one tries hard enough ,one can distort anything to suit his way of thinking.good luck with that. "

I used to use and test Joe's loads when I bought my Marlin years ago. Many of his loads lead to difficulty extracting cases. I hope I didn't ruin my gun with his advice. It's working OK now for me. But you are correct, he does also have articles on casting.

Here's the first 7 shots with a cast HP boolit at 100 yds. Joe at Realguns only does 3-shot groups. Where are yours? ;-)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=2828

[onesonek]

Nice load and shootin Frank!

Now sometimes I get to talking over my head with things that are new to me,,,such as the Marlin and cast boolits. That's alright in my mind, as the response to my thought's are a learning tool as well for me. Such as the threading and heat treating issue's of the Marlin in this thread.
Now for another thought,,,this said Joe feller,,, running 400gr. J's at 2000 fps creating sticky extraction seems to me, pushing beyond. Not only is it tough on the firearm, (any firearm when loaded as such), what happens if it won't extract at all or it tears through the rim when needed in a sticky situation?????
My thoughts are though, that a 400 gr. cast would generate less pressure than a jacketed at the same speed, providing one can get there with an appropriate powder. Maybe not however, that's why I'm asking/posting again?
Now with that thought stated, I didnt get the .45-70 Marlin with hopes or even a need to push the max.. Personally for me it's a very close range, to maybe out to 150yds. or so hunting rig,,,,,Give me a 350-375 gr. @ 17-1800 fps, a 400-425 gr. @ 16-1700 fps and a 450-475 gr. @ 15-1600 fps, that shoots 2.5 moa or better, I will be happy. Those thoughts appear to be at the upper end of the "Trap Door" scale according to the Hodgdon data I have at hand.

If I feel I need more than that in the field,,,,I will be using a different firearm and cartridge!!!

[josper]

Dave ,you have the mindset that I like .I didn't meen to start a peeing contest with this other guy.All I have been realy saying is some of these guys are pushing the limits and border on being unsafe .Thats my opinion and if someone don't like it.OH WELL. Dave ,I have printed out two pages of loads from "Joe" and not one of them would give a problem,all the COL were 2.540" I had tried a number of them with no problems. Dave do me a favor,read the article that I posted and while at that site in the search block type 45-70.It will list all the other articles "Joe" wrote on the 45-70. I found them interesting and well writen. sp? Dave if you use the data in the Lyman 49th edition you won't go wrong.

[onesonek]

I will read all that when time allows. As for the Lyman 49th, I'm sure it is a fine manual. But I also haven't had a problem using Hodgdon's, ( do cross reference with other's if something seems out of line however). I had one guy tell the Hodgdon was bascially no good cuz their pressures listed were not linear in progression in the diffferent .45-70 data. I can think of few different reasons causing that. I like Hodgdon, because they give pressure data with all the individual loads, most don't,,,,I'm not sure about Lyman as I don't have it. Alliant is another I use, as it is the second most brand of powder I use. One can call me cheap, as I don't have the Lyman along with all the other powder and bullet mfgr's manuals,,,just never seen the need.
Most of what I load for,is on the TC Encore platform, and the Ruger #1. Most are custom barrels, chambers and throats, and or are wildcats. That askews most data, so I let the firearm tell me. From experience I know what or how to adjust from the manuals starting loads in those situations. But those firearms are relatively easy to monitor pressure signs. What I have learned about the Marlin, that it's harder to get a read on those typical of others. Matters none in my situation, as I'm not pushing the limits anyhow. Or I don't believe I am,,,,I heard there are some discrepencies between the Lyman and Hodgdon data. I haven't had a chance to chrono my intitial loads as of yet, but will. Then make adjustments from there.

[Frank]

35Remington "Josper, the Marlin will handle 48.0 RL7 and the 405 just fine. It will kick a bit, but it's not at the limits of the rifle in any way, assuming we're talking about suitable 405's, as most are.

Take it from a guy who's done it repeatedly, as have many others."

Quickload's wrong. The load for Speer, RCBS and Lyman show 49, 48 and 48 grns for RL-7 for the guide gun. Only Alliant shows a max of 40, but they show that same max for trapdoor. Lyman shows 48.5 grns for a cast 420 grn boolit.

But more important than max is where is the accuracy point with RL-7 in the Marlin? Another good powder to try is SR4759 and a pinch of Dacron. Works good in my BFR 45-70 also.

[josper]

Ok frank lets play nice and work this out. I also have load from a disk. I set it up for the 45-70 RCBS 405 gr bullet.47.4gr rx7 is showing 49990 cup. I have the lyman #49 manual open infront of me as I type and not one of the loads in any configuration goes much over 27000cup. I just don't think they both [quickload] could be that far off. the Lyman book says that 28000 cup is max for the Marlin.Don't get your panties in a bunch I'm just laying out the data I'm seeing it.So who is right,I don't know.For my self I think I will stay in my limits.The deer don't seem to know the differance. Just remember Frank,metal fatigues and if by chanse you are loading hot .On fine day you may pull the triger and get the bolt in the kisser.Just a thought.

[josper]

Frank I have a story for you.I met this guy and in talking with him discovered we both liked to handload.He says,yup I like to load hot loads for my 44mag.Being curious Iasked **** what do yo consider a hot load. He replies .I'm using a lee loader and instead of using one scoop of powder I use two. Can you imagine that.I can only say some one is looking out for him.

[josper]

OK this is the link should have posted. http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar52.htm

[35remington]

Josper, you just won't let this go, so I'll respond in kind. Data is in abundance listing 48RL7 as a safe load in the Marlin with a 400 grain bullet. You need to broaden the range you're consulting as a source and also acknowledge that the Marlin is safely pushed to the 40,000 psi level.

Handloader magazine did an extensive series of reloads for the 45-70, handloading it to multiple pressure levels, including 21,000, 28,000, 35,000, and 43,500 CUP. All were specifically intended for the Marlin and shot in that arm. Further, Hodgdon is another source that runs the Marlin well past 28,000 CUP. The Handloader article gave extensive discussion to the safe pressure levels the Marlin 45-70 could be loaded to. It's higher than 28,000 CUP, and whether you prefer to go higher than that level or not, 48 RL7 with a 400 odd grain bullet can be within the safe zone and within that lower limit as to pressure. I'll show exactly why a few paragraphs down.

Please reference Handloader No. 248, August 2007, page 58 for this information.

If you want to limit your loads to 28,000, that is fine. So is being cautious.

However, predicting dire consequences like "metal fatigue" "excessive bolt thrust" and other such things with loads that credentialed authorities regard as quite safe for the rifle does not do this thread justice.

Squint a little harder at the data in Lyman's 47th. With 48 grains Reloader 7 and the 400 grain 457643, they list 26,900 CUP at 1875 fps. This is on page 357. This is specifically listed for the 1895 Marlin.

Since this is under the 28,000 CUP that you prefer to load the rifle to, this completely lays any fears that you have to rest, as this is about 40 percent under the 40,000 CUP loads that others feel quite safe loading the Marlin to.

Should you wish to further go to 37,000 CUP and want to look in Lyman's 49th, see page 314. Handloader lists this as a safe pressure level for the Marlin, and 51 grains RL7 is listed for 1996 fps using the 457193 of 405 grains. This is the same overall length (2.550") the cartridge has for the Marlin rifle. This is in a Universal test barrel with a standard SAAMI spec chamber.

Just because your data source stops at 28,000 CUP does not mean this is the highest safe pressure the Marlin can be loaded to. The actual safe limit is notably higher.

This has been known for quite some time now.

Let me quote you from an earlier thread.

"In the marlin 1895 GG you want to keep the chamber pressure at or below 40000 PSI."

Since you now know 48 RL7 with a 405 grain bullet is below that level, please feel free to proceed with the correct information.

[josper]

OK I'm squinting on page 314 lyman #49 and it says on the top of the page FOR RUGER #1 &3 ONLY .I would like to see the article you are refering to .I like to think I am open minded. I repeat the data from load from a disk shows that the RCBS 405 gr bullet with 48gr RX7 is running about 50000 cup.

[josper]

I'm still squinting and trying to sort this out. the other bullet you listed is a lyman 405 ,with 46gr rx7 list 41328 cup with 48.7gr rx7 list 46128 cup.

[35remington]

Look at the pressure. Not the gun it's intended for. The intended gun is conservative in Lyman's data.....Hodgdon's goes higher. Handloader goes higher for the Marlin as well.

Since you yourself admit that 40,000 psi is acceptable, Lyman's data confirms it is under this pressure loaded to the correct overall length of 2.550" for the Marlin. This should completely eliminate any doubt you are having.

Load from a Disk is a pressure estimating tool, not an actual pressure measuring device.

That's what's screwing you up, among other things.

Dig up the article in Handloader and be enlightened. The data presented there is pressure tested, not estimated. The data in Lyman's manual is pressure tested, not estimated.

Once we get you updated, you'll see the reason for the correction. Your dire warnings of disaster are not correct.

[35remington]

Reread page 314 in the 49th. Upper left. 457193. 405 grains.

46.0 RL7 23,600 CUP
51.0 RL7 36,800 CUP

OAL is correct at 2.550"

Feel better with the actual, not estimated, pressures I hope? Notice how this is under the Marlin's limit?

[Frozone]

If you sqint a little harder (and ignore the Ruger only thing for now) you'll see a load that is for the 457193 405g - a max of 51.0 @ 36,800CUP. Now the CHAMBER used to test this is the same as for all the 45-70 loads from trapdoor through the 'Ruger' ie: Universal Reciever.

Are you saying that Lyman's pressure readings are in error??

Because the rifle recommendations are just that, a recommendation, influenced by lawyers. The science is the pressure reading.
After that the only other requirement is the Max pressure for a given gun.
The recommendation in the Lyman is also for the entire 1895 Marlin line not Just the modern rifle but the original as well.

[mpmarty]

When the Marlin 1895 was first re-produced here in the seventies, Marlin themselves from New Haven stated in their literature that the "New Marlin 1895" was safe for handloads up to and including 45,000 psi as the action and metallurgy was the same as their 444 which operates in that general area also. I load as hot as my shoulder likes and never worry about turning my 95 into a grenade.

[josper]

Frozone: I'm trying really hard to follow you on this one and noI don't think their pressure readings are in error but on the other hand nor do I think their warnings in the preamble on page 312 are wrong either.No offence intended to you.Putting this argument aside I would like to state I believe in the law of diminishing returns.example:pg313 300gr jpp the starting load for n130 is51.0gr for2001fps 29800cup max is 57gr for2196fps and 37300cup .the spread was for an increase of [rounded off] 200fps and roughly 7000cup. Is it worth it to go to max for 200fps more recoil and more wear and tear on your rifle. I would with that in mind start on the low end ,work up in increments and stop when I got my best groups.I have found over the years that usually I repeat usually it will be a moderate load. can we agree on that one???

[35remington]

No argument on being safe, for sure, but can we put the safety of 48.0 Reloder 7 and a 405 to rest now?

There should be no question about this any more. It's acceptable, according to pressure tested data, and quite appropriate for a lever gun of the Marlin type.

I find a Marlin loaded to 40,000 psi to be annoyingly painful with a 405 grain bullet on long shooting sessions and admit to loading lighter to save my shoulder, but the fact that my shoulder doesn't hold up does not mean the gun can't take it.

[josper]

I'm waving the white flag.

[Frozone]

NI find a Marlin loaded to 40,000 psi to be annoyingly painful with a 405 grain bullet on long shooting sessions and admit to loading lighter to save my shoulder.

I'll second that!

I've set a personal limit at 38K for my Marlin. I'm not going into Why, but I have mathematical reasons for that limit.

[josper]

Its been a long time since I argued about the load with Rx7, 48gr. I have to apologize as since then I have bought more manuals ,read more articles ,and just plain doug deeper for information. I discovered what I believe to be a glitch in quickloads using Rx7. for whatever reason It just keeps showing higher pressures with that powder. I compaired other powder loads in the manuals and it seamed to be on track. Not to say I might find other errors in the future.But---- in my defence I saw what I thought was something I thought could get someone hurt and acted on it. Wrong or not .

[44man]

The 45-70 can beat you to death! :holysheep
Even a heavy BPCR needs a shoulder pad for extended shooting.
A friend had an original trapdoor or rolling block, can't remember. Our gunsmith loaded him rounds with 4198. 405 gr. They beat my cheek to mush and also shot too high for the fixed sights.
I had loaded some 500 gr Gov't boolits with 3031 and with a bruised cheek, I looked at them funny before trying them. How do you say FEAR? WOW, what a difference! Very pleasant and boolits hit center with very good groups. My friend shot a lot of deer with my load.
He moved out of state so I no longer have the load or his phone number.
I then tried my 320 gr boolit I use in my revolver and shot a one hole group at 50 yards with 3031 but way too low for the sights. The old timer was very accurate.
I fell in love with the 45-70 long ago. A big, heavy, soft boolit lumbering along will do anything asked of it. I use lighter boolits in the revolver though. Yet, someday I will try the soft 500 gr Gov't boolit for deer. I have the Rapine .460" boolit and it has to be one of the best.
Sadly, Ray retired. He is a great fellow and I will miss his molds and shooting the bull with him.
By the way, I never got the Lyman 405 gr to REALLY shoot from any gun.