Sizing and Gas checking

[Beekeeper]

Mods please move this if you think it is in the wrong place!

Yesterday I spent several hours sizing and gas checking , .223 and 8MM boolits using Lee sizing dies.
As you know they all go upwards into a hopper that you empty when you are through.
Almost all of the boolits have the gas check skinned and drooping back along what would have been the Lee sizer piston.
Needless to say I was PO'd to the max but intend to use them anyway as plinkers.

Today I made several hundred .223 boolits and 100 8MM boolits using the exact same checks, boolits, and dies and not one failure.
I do not understand what happened and will bite the boolit and humbly ask for help from any one and everyone.

Any ideas.


Jim

[Ben]

gas check skinned and drooping back along

Are you saying that the g/c fell off when the bullets exited the sizer die ?

What kind of g/cs are you using ?

[405]

I too am having a hard time picturing what is going on. 1st thing, strange as it sounds to bring up... the bullets are run thru the die nose first with the ram pushing on the gas check.

Now, a few things possible. The gas checks are too loose after running thru the sizer... meaning- (too big gas check and/or too small bullet base). OR, the piston (ram) is not set far enough up into the die. The die should be screwed down so that the ram is just short of making hard contact with the die at the full top of the stroke. That way the bullet with gas check is pushed most all the way if not all the way thru the sizing constriction at the top of the stroke. ALSO, the ram should push on a gas check that is at least mostly seated on the bullet base before both are pushed up and thru the sizer.

[Gohon]

ALSO, the ram should push on a gas check that is at least mostly seated on the bullet base before both are pushed up and thru the sizer.

I think that depends on how much resizing is being done. If the bullet is .225 and being sized down to .224 then there isn't much resistance to pop that gas check in place, especially with a Lee sizer. The check needs to be firmly set in the check before running it through the sizer. I finally gave up after going through 3 Lyman #225438 (44 grain) because the gas check shank on all three were over sized and I simply could not get a gas check to seat properly. The Lyman 225415 (55 grain) works great but that 438 never did work for me.

[Bloodman14]

Is the ram smaller than the dia. of the check? Different thicknesses of checks? Any leading in the die? Trying to eliminate possibilities.

[405]

I think that depends on how much resizing is being done. If the bullet is .225 and being sized down to .224 then there isn't much resistance to pop that gas check in place, especially with a Lee sizer. The check needs to be firmly set in the check before running it through the sizer. I finally gave up after going through 3 Lyman #225438 (44 grain) because the gas check shank on all three were over sized and I simply could not get a gas check to seat properly. The Lyman 225415 (55 grain) works great but that 438 never did work for me.

Exactly, that is why the check should be seated mostly, all the way is better, before the two are pushed through the sizer. Even with a lubrisizer with a nose punch, pressure can "force" a misfitting check on but the check may not go on square and plumb as it should. I guess that's why some checks just won't work with some bullets and one of the reasons for a separate check seater. The best mating tolerances between check and bullet base is one thing that is often overlooked or is an unknown before they are even tried because of alloy and/or mold tolerances. Also, one reason so much frustration and questions arise on the forum about "checks not fitting". Each is a law unto itself. I have a few GC molds that drop bullets that aren't a perfect fit with checks so it takes some ingenuity to make them work right for sure. One mold I remember I gave up on and just reamed the GC band off of- so now it's a plain base.

[Rockydog]

My Lee push through .243 has about 1/4 of the diameter of the top edge of the ram ground back on one side. It looks like it had a burr on one side that was ground off. This leaves a gap between the die and the ram that allows the check to smear down alongside the ram. It leaves a little pointed copper teardrop attached to the check. I need to pack the ram and a couple of checked boolits in an envelope and send them off to Lee. Hoping they'll make it right. These are brand new. RD

[Beekeeper]

Let me try to explain it a little better.
The Lee dies are brand new, first time for the 8MM.
I have been using Lee dies ever since I started to do cast.
The dies were set up correctly both times.
The 223 boolits drop 2245 and are sized to 224 while installing the gas check.
I have done several 1000 of them with no problems so am confident that I was doing them correctly.
As Rockydog stated I got the copper smear down alongside the piston, not on all of them but enough to make me wonder what I did wrong.
I have checked the die, piston , and even the press to see if I had some sort of wobble in the ram. Nothing!
The checks are Hornadys and I have used them since getting the 223.No problems.

The part I am concerned about is The next day when I did several hundred more I had absolutely zero problems.I had even left the die in the press and not removed it the day before!
That is why I was wondering if anyone had any ideas.

Jim

[qajaq59]

Just a wild guesss. But could you have had a tiny piece of copper from an earlier check that got stuck inside the die? That mght do what you described.

[Rockydog]

Beekeeper, I measured my ram with a mic and it is definitely missing material from one side. If it wasn't new I'd think that mine had been used in a press where the press ram was out of alignment with the bore of the die threads. Or at least that the sizing ram was out of alignment with the sizing die and had worn that way. It wouldn't take much to have a chunk of dirt under one side of the ram in the shellholder to tip the ram off to one side enough to wear it crooked or perhaps to allow a bit of the check to squeeze past in a shearing action. Probably wouldn't do a heck of a lot to improve accuracy either. RD

[rintinglen]

I had a similar problem occur with my 311-465. the stubb that the gas check fit on was a little on the small side and when I inadvertently got some pure lead into the pot, the bullets were so small, the gas checks wouldn't hold on. I added some tin to the pot and the problem went away. But it was perplexing for a while, especially since the same equipment had previously worked just fine.

[44man]

I use lapped out Lee dies for revolver boolits just to remove excess lube and seat the check if it has one. I can't run them through nose first or the check is pulled back. I run them base first. Not practical with a pointy boolit unless a punch is made for the boolit nose.
For those, I use my RCBS lube sizer to just crimp the check first. Some boolits are just done in the RCBS.
The force required to size a boolit in the Lee dies will determine how a check is seated, less force can move the check. It drags in the die.

[Rockydog]

I have sized some of the 243 boolits base first by carefully balancing them on the nose. It leaves a small flat spot but not so as to hurt anything. I did notice though that a couple of the boolits looked to be slightly bent. These are 245497 93 Gr Loverins cast from WW and water dropped. Is this possible? RD

[Bret4207]

It has been my experience that ALL brands of reloading equipment need a good cleansing before use. Lee equipment, no offense intended, really needs it. I pay the price eventually every time I neglect to do this.

Wash the die and ram out good with solvent and it wouldn't hurt to run a bore brush or some steel wool (4/0) up in there. A little grinding grit embedded in the surfaces can do exactly what you describe. I would also check the shellholder recess on the press for any foreign material. A grain of stick powder or a flake of primer or brass material can push the ram off alignment.

Some GC shanks are a bit over sized or otherwise "boogered" up. Sometimes just deburring the GC shank with your thumbnail will help get a good GC seat. Other times it requires mechanical means and possible annealing the GC and slightly belling them with a suitable tool like a ball bearing or pein of ball pein hammer.

To me, what you describe sounds like grit of some type in the die, maybe even a flake in the die body or a crack. Clean it and see.

[BABore]

Are you lubing your boolit with anything prior to pushing them through the die? I used to use Hornady One-Shot, but now use a nomemade lanolin/alcohol mix. It could have been scoring initially until you wore it down some.

[Buckshot]

............If your GC is being pushed back against the face of the pushrod enough for the GC to be miss-aligned and/or pushed down on one or a couple places around it's perimeter I'd say you got a die with a rough taper. The actual ring that does the sizing (will only be 0.100" or so wide) should be shiney in a clean die. The taper doesn't have to be 'shiney' smooth, but it for sure should be smooth with no evidence of even moderate grooving.

As the boolit and GC are pushed up into the die there should be nothing for the GC to catch on, and that sounds to me like what's happening. The GC should be smoothly pressed inward against the boolit's GC shank. If it catches a bit the pressure you're exerting on the press lever is magnified substantially on that small area of the pushrod's face, and stripping or having the GC pushed down probably won't even be noticeable to you at the time.

Clean the die internally and if you can see radial grooves in the taper, send the die back to Lee.

...............Buckshot

[mustanggt]

I purchased a gas check seater from Swede at NOE. It's not quite as fast as using the Lee push through die but I can see everything that I am doing and I find it a much more positive way to seat a gas check.

[XWrench3]

with some of my boolits, i have to tap the checks on before i size/seat them, or they will not seat right. there must be a burr on the boolit that prevents the check from sitting down all the way to the base. it only happens once in a while, and it isnt that big of a deal to me to tap the check on before i size them. i have never stopped and examined the boolits to see why, it was just a minor inconveinience, so i just did what needed to be done i use lee molds and sizers, so it is probably the same as what you have. what i had noticed was the check was sitting on crooked after sizing. and that means all accuracy was going out the window. i do not know if the problem was in the mold, or in the way i casted, or ??? next time i get this, i will have to see what is going on.