Filler: PSB, Cream of Wheat, or...

[MikeSSS]

Fillers mentioned various places have been: PSB, Cream of Wheat, dacron, kapoc and toilet paper.

Objective is to minimize leading and optimize accuracy.

CoW is the easiest to get and use. Toilet paper would be second.

Dacron and Kapoc require a trip to the fabric store, I could wear a disguise.

PSB leaves a credit card trail. No dear, it's not gun stuff, fingers crossed and all.

So, how do you rate em? First, second, ...?

Oops, are they needed ( I'm thinking it depends on the rifle and bullet fit.)

[Bass Ackward]

Fillers mentioned various places have been: PSB, Cream of Wheat, dacron, kapoc and toilet paper.

So, how do you rate em? First, second, ...?

Oops, are they needed ( I'm thinking it depends on the rifle and bullet fit.)


Mike,

The rating of a filler is pretty useless. The reason is that the type of filler needed depends on the objective. Some fillers are basically ignition improvers. They are not wanted to add to projectile weight, but simply to fill air space and hold powder back where the primer can ignite it consistently. That is TP, dacron, and Kpoc. But these aren't the only ones. You have more commercial opportunities that lubricate too like Puffalon. Compression is of little factor with this method.

You have wads that are sort of fillers that help to seal if your bullet fit is not ideal. These can be used with any case fill density as long as it is guaranteed to stay in place and seated by the bullet to prevent chamber ringing. Cardboard, waxed materials, felt, plastic coffee can lids, just let your imagination go wild.

The next reason to use a filler is to protect the bullet base from pressure. Compression force makes a big difference in powder burn rate. But to use a filler in this context, you must have a fill density of a certain amount and a neck diameter that allows free flow. An Ackley improved bottleneck would pretty much require powder fill to the base of the neck to prevent problems. A tapered case with a gentle shoulder would be more forgiving but still acts like a funnel. Cream of wheat will draw moisture and clump. Some claim that PSB will clump too. A straight case is open to the widest margin for filler use for this purpose for obvious reasons. Weight / volume need to be measured for consistent results.

My favorite filler is powder. It's weighed so that every case is the same. It avoids that extra step. Sometimes I use PSB if I want to shoot soft lead a little faster for hunting.

[45 2.1]

Filler is not something to be used indescriminately, it can produce unwanted results. Why don't you tell us what your trying to do.

[garandsrus]

MikeSSS,

COW worked great at blowing out cases from 30-30 to .375 Win. I wouldn't use it for anything else though.

John

[The Double D]

The Granular solids should not be used in bottle neck cases as fillers. Wouldn't think they would be much better in a tapered case either.

This is a Pufflon slug in a 577/450 Martini case that misfired (Smokeless load) Primer only fired, not the RL-7.

http://www.fototime.com/1B73A1294D43252/standard.jpg

This is that same case after spending 2 days in the case tumbler after I forgot to dig the Pufflon out before putting in the tumbler.

http://www.fototime.com/D2DB2475AB2E103/standard.jpg

And this is what I dug out.

http://www.fototime.com/4F827095639E500/standard.jpg

And this is what the cases look like after first time firing. (Last time too). Notice the pulled necks.

http://www.fototime.com/3294C502B57C8DF/standard.jpg

This is not the first time I seen this. Back in the days before digital photo's I saw this same thing using Cream of wheat.

Here is that same load when it misfired with kapok filler. The Kapok did not slug up.

http://www.fototime.com/7BC54851F480341/standard.jpg

That is how the case appeared when pulled from the chamber.

I feel very comfortable using kapok. You can get it on Ebay and the brown truck will deliver it with your Buffalo Arms and Graf and Sons order and the nieghbors will never know.


. You can also order it here:
• Kapok http://www.atrim.com/Page11.html

You could also use carded wool like the Brits did in the original Martini Cartridges.

[borderman]

Double D -

I am not sure what the pictures are telling me. I have started using COW in my .300 Weatherby with boolits because I can't stand the recoil with full power jacketed loads. I have just started shooting 15 grains of Unique, 30+ grains of both 4895 and 3031. Groups ran around 2 inches at 100 yards with the horrible stock trigger. I changed to a Timney and hope for better results. The COW is certainly more expensive than cornmeal, which I am thinking of switching to. I did notice some hard clumping at the base of the neck, wondered what caused that, thanks Bass. Dacron was way too slow to stuff thru the bottleneck so I changed to cereal. The clumping did seem to come out after tumbling, but should I be seeing the clumping as a warning sign?

[Char-Gar]

Boy have we done this topic to death! You will find a host of Dacron fans here, but I am not one of them.

I am a PSB/Grex man from the headwaters..and yes, I use it in bottleneck cases. I used it under these conditions. Under conditions of light compression there is no way it will harden into a mass.

I suppose you can compress the stuff into a mass, but that is dumb, and most bottle neck cases will collapse (neck and shoulder) before you get to that point.

1. When the powder column occupies 60% or more of the case capacity.
2. With a medium burning power

Organic fillers like COW can contain or attract moisture and harden into a cake..not good.

[Maven]

MikeSSS, Chargar's right, but let me suggest that you look for "fillers" in our archives. Also, E.H. Harrison (NRA) and Ken Mollohan (CBA) separately showed that cereal fillers do indeed increase pressure, which isn't intrinsically bad since you may need to do so to improve the efficiency of very slow* extruded powders, e.g., IMR 5010. Moreover, the CBA published an article recommending that you use grex-like fillers only when the powder charge fills at least 80% of the case. In .30-06-sized cases (metric .30's too) that would mean ~1.3cc PSB or less, sometimes as little as 0.3cc. Btw, you can use powdered bran (Run it through an coffee grinder first.) in approx. the same proportions as PSB, but it isn't quite as effective as the former. Price & availability may aid in your choice. In short, use only enough filler to allow light compression; store the loaded cartridges with the CB's down/bases up so the filler can't migrate into the powder charge; and use a chronograph.


*I tried PSB with WC 860, a very slow ball powder, in the '06 & 7.62 x 54R and found no measurable differences. I.e., it wasn't worth the extra effort.

[MikeSSS]

I already cast and shoot cast bullets in the .45 LC and 44-40. These are 200gr tumble lube bullets, cast from wheel weights, sometimes shot with regular light charges and often with very light charges of Clays. I also shoot hard cast bullets in 9mm and .45 ACP. I also cast and shoot round balls in revolvers and muzzle loaders. I use pure lead for the cap and ball revolvers and ww for the patched ball rifles.

The light loads in the 45LC and 44-40, using Clays, don't use filler and they work just fine. Sound from a rifle is about like a pellet gun, velocity is high enough to shoot relatively flat 'across the pond' and they hit with a 200 gr slug. We also shoot round balls in the 45LC and 44-40 with about one grain less of Clays. These loads sound like a low powered Daisy BB gun, but have pretty good accuracy at short range and hit a lot harder than a BB gun. These light loads kill the vicious cactus' dead.

But now I'm interested in milsurp rifles. Calibers will be 6.5, .30 and 8mm. There are articles out there about .303's that seem to need filler for best accuracy. That's why I asked the question.

When I shoot jacketed bullets in the milsurp rifles I use powders like Varget or BLC2.

The cast bullets for milsurp rifles will be cast from wheel weights and shot at relitively low velocities, in other words they will be light loads. Some will use gas checks and some will not.

Back in high school, in the early 60's, I cast .30 gas check bullets from ww in an RCBS mold. I shot them in my No4 MK1 .303. It was made by Savage and had a 2 groove barrel. I chose a mold that would use bullets that could be used in a 30-06 and a 30-30, one at a time. I probably used BLC, just like for the jacketed bullets, and shot light loads. Accuracy was very good. We didn't use filler back then. So, I'm trying to do it again, this time with a variety of rifles.

All advice and comments are much appreciated.

[mag_01]

:coffee: -----Mike You are right It depends what you are trying to accomplish---I have used fillers for different reasons--as suggested to keep powder against the primer Dacron is good-----If you are looking to use as a gas check replacement I use tumbling media---also good to seal bore when you have a bad boolit fit like the wide range of bore diameters in the 303---I do use media in 30-30- and 7.62x54R and 7MM and 8MM as well as 303---I have found in some cases Little difference in gas check and boolits with just media as far as performance and I prefer a round with some punch------Be careful if you try fillers---they do raise pressure----never load a full power load with a filler-----start low and work up --- and In some cases it is just easier to use gas checks----You do not need gas checks below 1600 fps---I like to work in the 1800 to 2200 range---I like full power 30-30 and _no fillers_as I said with full power loads---be careful and work up slowly----Mag

[PAT303]

I shoot 303's all the time and don't use fillers simply because I can't buy it in australia. I think and this is just my opinion that using fillers is a bandaid fix for other problems like undersize bullets etc. One plus we have here is that CBE make .30cal molds in the right dia for mil surp rifles and not the sizes there suppost to be. This morning I shot my Malby no.4 2 groove at 200 and put 15 shot's into the head of a figure A military target with 23 grains of AR2207(4198) without any problems.If I want to shoot a lighter charge I just use a quicker burning easy igniting powder without any fillers at all. pat

[The Double D]

Double D -

I am not sure what the pictures are telling me. I have started using COW in my .300 Weatherby with boolits because I can't stand the recoil with full power jacketed loads.

The picture is telling you that Pufflon slugs up when forced through a bottle neck from the presure generated just from a primer.


The COW is certainly more expensive than cornmeal, which I am thinking of switching to. I did notice some hard clumping at the base of the neck, wondered what caused that, thanks Bass.

Cereal are granualted solids. If you pass them through a funnel they will slowly trickle through. When pressure is applied they as act as a solid mass.


Dacron was way too slow to stuff thru the bottleneck so I changed to cereal.

Yes you can dump in CoW faster. But that slug of filler in my book is just not worth it. In the shots that misfired and were loaded with pufflon, the bullets stuck in the barrel. If pressure from just a primer can make such a slug and leave it compacted when dug out, I can only wonder what it is doing if the powder fired.

The picture of the cartridge with the kapok sticking out of the neck is how the cartridge was pulled from the chamber,with the kapok blown out. The kapok is not slugged in the neck and also the bullet left the barrel and did not stick.


The clumping did seem to come out after tumbling, but should I be seeing the clumping as a warning sign?

If you have clumps left in the case ofter firing, I would read that as a danger sign. What if one of those clumps is blown down and left in the barrel? The least its going to do is screw up accuracy. At worse it will become a blockage.

And I have have hardly even mentioned how it stretches necks and shoulders.

[StarMetal]

Anything that you fire out of a cartridge case in your rifle is abrasive to the bore, that includes the powder and the bullet too. Powder blasting out of the case mouth is like sand blasting. This is most noticeable in over bore magnum cartridges. The throat and leade in is heated extremely hot from powder gases and the unburned granules are sand blasting a softened heated surface. No I'm not talking about near the molten stage. With that said such fillers as COW, corn meal , are solids and they sandblast the bore. If you shoot a tremendous lot of these loads you will have alot of wear. Now one member mentioned using cleaning media. My God, why not use sand? I'd never subject my guns to that kind of abuse. Let me put this into perspective. Sand blasting paint off of automobiles for repainting and restoration. Ok, one thing wrong with using sand is for one it's very abrasive, depending too on granular size. Then sandblasting actually heats the metal and warps it's. That's probably one of the worse effects and why they have gone to other media. One other type of media is plastic bead, thus called beadblasting. One of the newer method is using baking soda!!!! Yeah baking soda. So what does that tell me? That tells me that COW, corm, and tumbler media are way more abrasive then baking soda.

I've been using mostly Kapok (and you see there is a good report of here from DD) and some Dacron.

The one poster mentioned using no filler, said to use a small amount of faster burning powder. Well most the knowlegable reloaders here will know can be wrong with that. To the poster that does that, please post pictures of your firearm when a SEE occurs so we can see it.

One thing about a misfire. If you've ever had the primer fire, but the powder not light off and you examine it afterwards, you'll notice in cases where the primer didn't force the bullet out of the case, that when you pull that bullet, you find the powder really clumped together. It's almost like it's damp. Just the heat from that primer firing does something. So what I'm getting after is in that picture DD posted here of the Pufflon forming a slug, who's to know what happened isn't like what I just explained with the powder clumping? The only way to know is high speed photography of using Pufflon and filming it and see what it looks like coming out of the barrel. Maybe even firing shots through big sheets of carboard or paper various distances from the muzzle will tell something. If there is more then one hole per shot, then perhaps it is clumping.

Joe

[sundog]

Bass mentioned that his favorite filler is powder. I like it that way, too. BUT, in alot of instances it's tough to find a usable combination of boolit to fit the throat, powder to push it that fills the case, and twist approriate to the pressure and hardness of the boolit. And still get acceptable accuracy....

THAT is why is called 'hand loading'.

My recent dinking around with the .308 (surplus powder forum) is just what this is about. Powder the base of the neck, boolit that fits the throat loaded to just touch the powder column, and the correct boolit hardness and twist to get it to stabilize correctly. Generally this requires a slower powder, and then you run into ignition of complete burn problems - a precarious balance. And when you find it, whatever velocity you get is what you get for that set of conditions.

And there's economics to consider. The more powder you use, the more it costs. Duh. That's what's so appealing to the surplus fuels, especially the slow ones.

Other than that, I use dacron for my '06 match rounds in the 03 with N120 and a 30-180-SP. I've tried TP, it works, but I don't care for it that much. I've also tried PSB, and it works, and it is expensive. I might try it again someday. One thing I've not tried and been wanting to for a long time is milkweed. I've got alot of it around my place and this is the time of year to harvest, so I might just go out and get some this weekend and set it up on the shelf for a later trial. Seems though that it needs to be dried out a tad before use or load and use immediately.

What would be wrong with sphagnum peat? sundog

[felix]

Milkweed and/or peat would work also. Dry some out real well, and see how they burn on a wire stove/spoon. You are looking for ash content (calcium,magnesium). The added advantage of peat would be its considerable lower ph in keeping the barrel cleaner from the ash, but would also require the barrel to be slicked down after shooting to raise the ph back up (to be put back out of the rust range). ... felix

[StarMetal]

Forget the milkweed, kapok, or dacron burning in your barrel. It doesn't happen. It gets blowed out. BruceB will tell you Dacron being blowed out. Besides, if you want to use milkweed, use Kapok, it's just about the same stuff and it's already been processed for your use.

Joe

[sundog]

Joe, don't know about all the other stuff, but TP don't burn or get consumed. It blows out in a tiny snow storm. If yer ashoosting into the wind, it's like being in a parade! Confetti, and lots of it. Good reason to NOT use the used variety. sundog

[StarMetal]

sundog,

So right you are sir, glad to see someone has some down to earth sense. This doesn't need to be made into rocket science. I would imagine that minute quanties of some things will burn up. Like Buckshot once said, if you get a big cloud of filler blowing out of the muzzle, you used too much.

What's next? Collecting those fuzzies off of dandelion blossoms, the ones we were so fond of blowing when we were children? I know cast boolit members are resourceful, but somethings go way too far....like concoctions to put in your bullet lube. Now it's fillers, shucks let's add a few more: the dandelion fuzzies just mentioned, hornet/wasp nests, spider web, fly wings, shaved fuzz off peaches, and styrofoam highly shredded in your food processor.

Joe

[The Double D]

I use to use TP also. Always got confetti. Then on day the loads i was using seem to be acting strange. As I was walking down to the target and I notice solid slugs of TP and they looked like they had be extruded through a small hole.

No more TP for me. That load was no good any way.

There nothing wrong with fillers blowing out your barrel. In fact the fellows shooting the big British cartridge recommend as much filler as you can compress in the case. My smokeless loads seem to shot better themore they are comptressed

In small bore cases like 308 and 30/06 I doubt if you will ever see the filler again after firing.

The only fillers i have noticed burn is cotton and only on very dry days. They will start grass fires.

[PAT303]

Don't get me wrong StarMetal, when I say I don't use fillers I don't use them in 303's which is what the original thread was about. I've never had a SEE occur, nor do I know anyone that has and when I mentioned small charges, that is 13 grains of red dot or similar. That load is safe in most mil surps and shoot's well. Pat

[MT Gianni]

sundog,

So right you are sir, glad to see someone has some down to earth sense. This doesn't need to be made into rocket science. I would imagine that minute quanties of some things will burn up. Like Buckshot once said, if you get a big cloud of filler blowing out of the muzzle, you used too much.

What's next? Collecting those fuzzies off of dandelion blossoms, the ones we were so fond of blowing when we were children? I know cast boolit members are resourceful, but somethings go way too far....like concoctions to put in your bullet lube. Now it's fillers, shucks let's add a few more: the dandelion fuzzies just mentioned, hornet/wasp nests, spider web, fly wings, shaved fuzz off peaches, and styrofoam highly shredded in your food processor.

Joe
Starmetal, You forgot lubing with earwax and bellybutton lint as a filler/wad. Gianni

[StarMetal]

Pat303,

Looks to me that MikeSSS made the original post and it's not about a 303

Joe

[PAT303]

Take it easy Joe, MikeSSS mentioned an artical on I think is the 303 page about fillers and want's to shoot mil surp rifles so that's what he's asking about. Some people like using fillers and an equal amount don't .It's a personal choice PAT

[StarMetal]

Joe is taking it easy.

Regards
Joe

[PAT303]

I'd shout ya a beer but it would be warm and flat by the time you got it Pat

[PAT303]

I'd shout ya a beer but it would be warm and flat by the time you got it Pat

[StarMetal]

Pat303,

Where you at, it might not be.

I just think it's funny that more then half the guys that posted here use fillers and you single me out. :drinks:

Joe

[PAT303]

Mate I think rifles are like women, there all different and the only way you find out what they like is to shoot them. The rifles that is, not the women. By the way what time is it in america?

[StarMetal]

Pat303,

It's 12:24 am where I am and that's Thursday 14th. Going to bed. have a good one sir. :Fire:


Joe

[mag_01]

Tried a few things the other day at the range--thought it might be interesting---when shooting Cow it smelled like something was burning-bad (smell)-----also using 18grs. of 2400 with a filler produced a very flat primer (pressure)---using 24grs. of 2400 and no filler produced a primer with rounded :coffee: contours (less pressure)---was quite a difference in the 2 loads---just showing the raising of pressure with the filler (tumbling media):coffee: ---Mag