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lwknight
09-11-2010, 08:40 PM
I have worked with 124 grain 9mm GS for awhile and 6.0 grains WSF (90% cap)gets me 1220 fps with impressive water jug tests.
Now I'm starting to work up 9mm GS 147 grain loads. 6.0 grains is 100% capacity only gets me 1050 fps.

It would seem logical to have the same energy with the same charge and maybe even higher energy from a heavier bullet since some powder is waste in short barrels with light barrels.

Problem and question:
124 grains @1220 fps = 410 lb.ft.
147 graind @1050 fps =360 lb.ft.

Can anyone comment on real life performance test comparing these 2 bullets and is 1050 fps considered plenty good for SD situations. I know that some people think a .380 will do the job but, I do not subscribe to that belief.

If I really want to push the limits I can get 1300 fps from a 124 grain bullet with 460 lb.ft energy but its hard on the gun.
__________________

sagacious
09-11-2010, 09:22 PM
I'm sure you already know this, but one of the great things about the GS is that it's designed to open fast, and work well with standard-for-caliber velocities. The 9mm 124gr GS is impressive on water jugs down to al least 1088fps avg, in my tests. Penetration in 9mm is never a problem, but reliable hp's can be. More speed can mean more reliable expansion, but the GS doesn't need more speed to work as designed. I load the 124gr GS in 9mm to the same speed as you, and specifically like the fact that it's easy on guns. 1050 with the 147gr seems plenty good. I also load the 45ACP 230gr GS to standard-full velocity. Nice hp's to work with because they group so well.

GabbyM
09-11-2010, 11:37 PM
I have some VV 3n38 here that's supposed to push a 147gr Hornady to 1207 fps.
I've been slow about getting out to test the laod. It's listed on website. http://vihtavuori-lapua.com/
I dont think you'll get the GS bullet going as fast as the Hornady but I could be wrong.

What you are running into with the 147 gr and WSF is reduced powder capacity with the heavier bullet farther down into the case. The VV 3n38 powder or AA #7 will yield higher velocity with the big bullets.

lwknight
09-11-2010, 11:48 PM
Good to know about the 3n38.
I am having second thoughts about the " Go heavy " theory in SD ammo.

Example : Its common opinion that the 158 grain .357 magnum is an over penetrator and wastes energy. Wasting energy is no big deal other than you get extra blast and recoil that are not advantagous in SD. Next , according to FBI data , the .357 magnum 125 grain bullet is a slightly more effective fight stopper than the 158 grain bullet.

Since I can get a 124 grain 9mm up to the modern off the shelf .357 mag energy
( modern 357 mag ammo is watered down) and cannot get a heavier bullet to the same energy level ( without regard to velocity ) it would seem logical to stay with the lighter bullets.

Anyway I love experimenting and shooting and have 1000 147 grain Rem. GS bullets to play with.

HeavyMetal
09-11-2010, 11:57 PM
I'd stick to the 125 GS for SD!

I've read several statements that the 147's are not doing the job as promised hence the move in many dept's to the 40 S&W which is also not up to par when using bullets in 170 and up weight class.

Switch to Blue dot under the 125. Depending on barrel length you may get into the 1300's and, used sparingly, this will do the same job a 357 mag 125 grain load which was noted in the early 80's as a 99% one shot stop round!

I personnally detest bullet weights that are to heavy for the caliber performance level and the 147 and a 9mm just don't fit and I don't care how many people try to change it!

Same with the 40! 155 should be the max bullet weight for SD this gets into the 1290 1300 range as well. which seems to be the magic number with the smaller calibers.

Just my opinion to be taken, as always, with a grain of salt!

GabbyM
09-12-2010, 01:45 PM
9mm worked pretty good for almost a century then the FBI geniuses played with it.
FBI load with 147 is sub sonic 940 fps and a proven disaster. It takes something like 950 fps to set up a shock wave and all that temporary cavity business. According to ballistic gel test. Whole reason the 9mm had a better reputation than the 38 Special was the velocity plus the FMJ bullets that would always penetrate. FBI lawyers thought they'd civilize the 9mm and go with sub sonic pip squeak loads and a heavy HP bullet. Anyone who understood what makes a 9mm work knew that was going to fall flat.

If you read some on Veral Smiths web page you'll see where he recommends choosing a bullet weight you can shoot at 1,200 fps. And using flat nose bullets. I totally agree with that theory. To get a longer wound channel add weight to the bullet but not at the sacrifice of the 1200 fps velocity target.

You want a super sonic bullet and you want it to stay supersonic as long as possible while it penetrates.
I've never used 124 grain HP bullets in 9mm. Used either NATO ball or a TCFP bullet at around 1200 fps. Flat nose 124gr 9mm is an impressive round at 1200 fps. Now with this VV 3n38 powder I figure if I can shoot a 147 at close to 1200 fps it would have enough push to it to use a hollow point. Mostly will be shooting the Magma 147 fp cast lead boolit.

I may not like them and go back to the 124's I've been shooting for 35 years. Have shot quite a few cast 147's at 945 fps and do not like them for accuracy or how they hit.

Char-Gar
09-12-2010, 02:17 PM
Somebody quick, drive a stake through the heart of this thread! At least hang garlic and make the sign of the cross! These yahoos are talking about those dreadful little yellow thingies on the Cast Boolit board. Oh the horror!

sagacious
09-12-2010, 04:59 PM
124 is plenty good in 9mm. I discarded the 'heavier is better for SD' theory long ago. One of the nice things about the 124gr in 9mm is that it allows wider latitude in powder selection than both lighter-weight and heavier bullets for that cartridge, while still giving good velocity.

lwknight
09-12-2010, 05:45 PM
Somebody quick, drive a stake through the heart of this thread! At least hang garlic and make the sign of the cross! These yahoos are talking about those dreadful little yellow thingies on the Cast Boolit board. Oh the horror!

Take it easy grasshopper. This is the shooters.com of general portion of castboolits forum.:p
Really my first question was tailored more to the pheonomona that heavier
bullets end up with less energy than lighter bullets with the same powder charge.:idea:
That is what intrigues me.

Char-Gar
09-12-2010, 11:17 PM
A little history lesson Pismeyer Ant. The founding group of this board started it's unique cast bullet internet effort on a web site called Shooter.com. In the due course of time it went belly us and left the brotherhood without a home. After a few false starts on other boards, it ended up here. When this board was set up, it kept one place where the old cronies from Shooters.com could gather. It was our stove/cracker barrel.

So, this is not a general information, jacketed bullet place. You are entirely wrong in that. But, times change and I don't make the rules, only recall the history.

I really don't care if you like Golden Sabers either in bullet or suppository form. I really don't mind if you want to lard up this site with the talk of the same. Very few of the real old founding casters hang around this board any more. Mission drift is one of the causes of their departure.

I don't suppose that means anything to you, but there are still a few of us who care where this board came from and where it is going.

lwknight
09-12-2010, 11:26 PM
Charger , I'm glad you are not a mod here. If we can't discuss anything other than lead I would be just bumpin it on down the road. And I think a great number of others would too.

There is only so much to say about lead and it would get very drole in that confinement.

GabbyM
09-13-2010, 01:15 AM
LwKnight:
to answer the mystery question. You need a slower powder and more of it by weight to get that heavier bullet going. That is a surprising result though. Must have something to do with pressure curve. Which will change as you change weight of the bullet.

6 grains of WSF under 147gr looks like a huge charge judging by my books. Looks like it would be +P for a 124 grain.

lwknight
09-13-2010, 02:26 AM
This definately bears experiment worthy in my book. 6.0 grains WSF in 9mm 124 grain bullet is most definately +P and probably +P+.

Gabby , you definately make sense. I did not see any indication of higher pressures with the 147 grain bullets. Thoeretically it should have been.

WSF comes in at No. 47 . Maybe not as scaleably versitile as I had thought.
True Blue @ 56
3N38 @ 58
Blue Dot @60
Win.571 @ 61 ( have not seen that on a shelf )

I don't know if I can get 3N38 easily but maybe Ramshot True Blue will be a little closer to the bill at least.

OK If you never hear from me again , you will know what happened. I'm going to try 296 in a 9mm.
I would think its too slow for the short barrel but could just work. I bet it don't even cycle the slide. I will make the first test in a High Point rifle.

StrawHat
09-13-2010, 05:38 AM
...There is only so much to say about lead and it would get very drole in that confinement...

That is why this site is geared toward lead shooters. And there are many nuances involved in shooting lead. Get the garlic and the stakes.

Char-Gar
09-13-2010, 11:33 AM
Mr. Knight...

1. Nope, I am not a mod and don't make the rules, but if I did there would be no condom threads allowed. Unless I become a moderator, I will just have to settle for giving my opinion. Which is...This thread sucks!

2. I have been handloading since 1958 and there was just so much to be said for reloading condom bullets, so in my boredom I took up the serious craft of cast bullet shooting. Cast bullet shooting is taken seriously is far, far more complex than pushing those dreadful little yellow thingies down a barrel. Cast bullet shooting is the post-graduate level of handloading.

3. Bullet casters ought to have a place where they can gather and share experiences, information that is not trashed up with general stuff, like all of the other dishwater gun boards out there. This board was started with that unique purpose and was at it's best when it stayed with it's purpose. Those who find bullet casting droll should move on down the road and find a place that scratches where they itch.

lwknight
09-13-2010, 12:06 PM
OK so I'll do my powder testing with cast boolis.
Happy?
It is OK to talk about gunpowder here , right?

Char-Gar
09-13-2010, 12:13 PM
Yep..powder is cool! Proceed at flank speed!

zxcvbob
09-13-2010, 12:38 PM
Instead of WSF (which is an awesome powder) try AA#7 or Power Pistol or maybe HS-6 for those 147's. WSF is a little too fast. (Power Pistol and Bullseye are slower-burning than their places on most burn charts would indicate. The charts seem to be adjusted for energy content.) I would start with AA#7, which is about like Blue Dot but denser and less prone to drama.

I shoot 135 grain LRN bullets in 9mm. I don't know why that weight isn't more popular -- it's heavy but still leaves you some room in the case for powder.

sagacious
09-13-2010, 11:21 PM
There are many useful current threads with topics that touch upon the 'other' type of bullet. One might as well just make a clean sweep of it, and remove all of those threads..... along with virtually the entire swaging forum, and those other forums such as the rimfire forum-- where casting is a near impossibility, and some calibers were/are/never will be available with non-jacketed bullets. That'll help keep the riff-raff down.

LWknight has provided so much accurate and relevant insight on so many threads that criticism of his reasoned and helpful input is nothing short of outright ludicrous and ungrateful. The members here owe him a sincere thanks, and a small spot of help with his query here hardly blights this board. Rude and loud-mouthed antagonism does. Indeed, where's a mod when ya need one?

casterofboolits
09-14-2010, 12:37 AM
I find the thread intresting, if some what redundant. IIRC the FBI and other law enforcement agencies abandoned the 147 grain round due to it's over penetration.

The heaviest boolit I have loaded in the nine is a 135 grain TC.

If you want to launch a heavier nine, try the 38 Super. I used a 158 grain SWC over Blue dot to get 1230 FPS out of a six inch supported barrel and 1190 when cut to 5 1/2 inch and a comp added. This load made major for IPSC, in fact it exceeded the 180 PF by 8 points.

For SD, I much prefer the 45 ACP with the dreaded yellow word HP's.

knifemaker
09-14-2010, 12:58 AM
There was a survey by two authors, can't remember their names, that was conducted on police shootings. The findings of that survey involved hundreds of shootings and the 357 Mag. using a 125 gr. HP at a velocity of 1200-1300 FPS was the top round that produced "One shot stops" when the bullet was placed into the torso area of the body.
That 125gr. load even surpassed the top 45 ACP HP loads by a very small margin. The 9mm was further down on the percentage of making one shot stops. But most of the 9mm loads involved hardball ammo or HP ammo that was loaded to a lower velocity then 1200-1300 fps as this was ammo issued to officers by their department.
This would lead me to believe that using a Golden saber 124 gr. HP in a 9mm at a velocity of 1200 fps or more would be a very effective round for self defense purposes as it would be in the ball park of the 357 mag. load that rated number one in "one shot stops" for gunfights involving law enforcement. One shot stop is a term used to show that the person hit in the torso area by one shot, stopped all violent action immediately upon being hit.
If I remember right, that 357 mag load was effective 95% of the time out of several hundred shootings. The best 45 ACP load was effective about 93-94% of the time. Even the 45 ACP hardball load was effective about 85%. The 9mm hardball was only effective about high 50's or low 60's % of the time with one shot to the torso area. If my memory is right, this survey took place before the Golden Saber bullet came out and about the time the 45 ACP Black Talon was introduced, but not out long enought to see how effective it was to possibly surpass the 357 mag. round.

lwknight
09-14-2010, 01:11 AM
I guess I should have never mentioned a comparison about terminal ballistics and stuck to my original quest.
Although contrary to what seems logical , it appears that the powder is burning out
before the heavier bullet gets out of the barrel and possibly even losing some velocity to
friction. In contrast , the lighter bullet is getting out of the barrel while the burn is still
in progress and yields higher terminal energy.

With the input from Gabby , I have a goose to chase using slower powder.
The thing that threw me was that I mis estimated the WSF pressure burn curve.
I was thinking that WSF was solidly slow because it was radical in large capacity cases
(38spl.) with light boolits and so predictably scalable with a small capacity case with 115-124 grain bullets and boolits.

With all the rain we've had the grass is growing with a vengeance and when I get it beat
down I can get back to my goose chase.

lwknight
09-14-2010, 01:16 AM
Interesting, Knifemaker. I had read that before but, thanks for the refresher.

zxcvbob
09-14-2010, 01:34 AM
With the input from Gabby , I have a goose to chase using slower powder.
The thing that threw me was that I mis estimated the WSF pressure burn curve.
I was thinking that WSF was solidly slow because it was radical in large capacity cases
(38spl.) with light boolits and so predictably scalable with a small capacity case with 115-124 grain bullets and boolits.
WSF has the same burn rate as Herco, but it's denser so you can use it in cartridges where you run out of capacity with Herco. So it is kind of slow, but with heavy bullets you need something even slower -- but there's not much case capacity to work with. Power Pistol and AA#7 are at the sweet spot; there's also one from Vihtavouri but I don't remember which one, 3N37 or N350 maybe.

Doby45
09-14-2010, 09:23 AM
There was a survey by two authors, can't remember their names, that was conducted on police shootings. The findings of that survey involved hundreds of shootings and the 357 Mag. using a 125 gr. HP at a velocity of 1200-1300 FPS was the top round that produced "One shot stops" when the bullet was placed into the torso area of the body.
That 125gr. load even surpassed the top 45 ACP HP loads by a very small margin. The 9mm was further down on the percentage of making one shot stops. But most of the 9mm loads involved hardball ammo or HP ammo that was loaded to a lower velocity then 1200-1300 fps as this was ammo issued to officers by their department.
This would lead me to believe that using a Golden saber 124 gr. HP in a 9mm at a velocity of 1200 fps or more would be a very effective round for self defense purposes as it would be in the ball park of the 357 mag. load that rated number one in "one shot stops" for gunfights involving law enforcement. One shot stop is a term used to show that the person hit in the torso area by one shot, stopped all violent action immediately upon being hit.
If I remember right, that 357 mag load was effective 95% of the time out of several hundred shootings. The best 45 ACP load was effective about 93-94% of the time. Even the 45 ACP hardball load was effective about 85%. The 9mm hardball was only effective about high 50's or low 60's % of the time with one shot to the torso area. If my memory is right, this survey took place before the Golden Saber bullet came out and about the time the 45 ACP Black Talon was introduced, but not out long enought to see how effective it was to possibly surpass the 357 mag. round.

It is Evan Marshall's One Shot Stop Statistics..

Char-Gar
09-14-2010, 11:53 AM
I don't load many 9mms although I have several pistols in that caliber. I have had great luck with a 124 grains cast SWC from an old NEI mold over a dose of AA5 powder. This stuff is a hair slower than Unique and was if I remember correctly was designed for the 9mm round.

GabbyM
09-14-2010, 11:55 AM
My personal belief is the 9 x 19mm is one of the cartridges where J bullet loads can be used with a real boolit given similar bullet design to leave the same amount of case capacity to work with. Its been shown that reducing capacity by 1/32” in a 9 x 19mm can send pressure out of limits. Changing bullet brands from ones listed in the laod data can shift the base down that much. My Magma 147 grain FP is a profile copy of a J bullet. It has a long ogive and flat point which places most of the bullet in front of the case mouth. It will run out to around 1.145" before the bore diameter enters the throat on my S&W. With the bullets sized to .356" in my Smith it will run up into the throat to load out to mag length if you want. Same weight bullet with a round nose will be much farther inside the case.

I wasn't planing on using anything past the start load with my cast. It list 1173 with the jacketed so it should be plenty fast with my boolits. Europeans as far as I know don't use the +P designator. I'd assume that 6.9gr 1207 fps VV 3n38 load is a +P load already and if you start changing bullets you could get over the top. As soon as you hit 1100 fps with a 147 grain bullet you are already at 40 S&W power levels. I'm running a Stainless steel Smith that I consider to be fairly rugged. May want a heavier spring for these loads. We'll see. We had a fellow here a few months ago list a load of AA#7 with 147 grain at over 1100 fps for major power in competition. He figured the pressure in the upper 30's. Would seam to me when you exceed the published standard velocity by over 100 fps you'd be about done. There is a point where you start to loose. I know a man who uses magnum primers in his 9mm because standard primers pierce with his load. Well if it were me I'd back down a bit. Just me. I've always got my 44 Magnum 6" revolver for when I want a big gun. :Fire:

GabbyM
09-14-2010, 12:33 PM
It is Evan Marshall's One Shot Stop Statistics..

The ball ammo is round nose. A flat nose 9mm cast bullet will blow twice the hole diameter in ballistic clay as a 45 acp round nose. All while penetrating much deeper than a 45 acp. I've been shooting 124gr TCFP for over thirty years now. It's not just clay they blow holes in. Actually the round nose bullets ugly stuff up pretty good too.

When you look back at most of the successful 9mm or 45 acp hollow point bullets you'll find they were the ones which actually don't expand. Basically just a TCFP as they penetrate. Manufacturers came up with the gold dots that plug up with cloth or wood to stop expansion in a barrier. They work half the time at this function. I've never bought one after reading reports. A 124 grain TCFP works 100% of the time and will bust through stuff that gold dot never will. Cast bullets do the job.

I don't know what the civilian standard is. But I've a box of Eagle 9mm 124-fmf-rn here than clocks 1050 over the chronograph. Pretty anemic. NATO ball should be much faster.

Dannix
10-21-2010, 12:54 AM
lwknight, I'm going to take a stab at the answer as to why, with the same powder type, same powder load of WSF, the 147 has less energy. The answer: intertia of the 147, and the fasterishness of WSF. So yeah, what everyone else has mentioned -- WSF is too fast. If you want a fast moving 147, VV looks like the best route with AA7 a more distant 2nd.

I'm thinking of it this way; you punch a beach ball and it goes flying. You punch a bowling ball and all you get is a hurt hand, but if you pushed the bowling ball with the same total force as that short-duration punch, and you'd get better results.


TCFP - my concern on this route for the 9mm would be overpenetration. Probably the best bullet/boolit design for, say, backcountry, but I'm too often in crowded areas to go that route myself.

zxcvbob, interesting your comment about AA7 being similar to bluedot but without some problems the bluedot apparently has. Could you elaborate on this a bit? You a fellow wippersnapper? Just curious. No offense intended, but I haven't seen you around and the old farts I've seen mention BlueDot never did so with any caveats.
(we need a 'I love venerable, old farts' banner :mrgreen:)

I'm running my 9mm on Universal right now, but have WSF, Silhouette (apparently formerly WAP), and AA7 on the to-try list for 124grn, some 132grn. I'm looking for the lowest flash route, which rules out power pistol. Grafs is having a sale, so I'm going to pick up a few jars.

zxcvbob
10-21-2010, 01:23 AM
zxcvbob, interesting your comment about AA7 being similar to bluedot but without some problems the bluedot apparently has. Could you elaborate on this a bit? You a fellow wippersnapper? Just curious. No offense intended, but I haven't seen you around and the old farts I've seen mention BlueDot never did so with any caveats.
(we need a 'I love venerable, old farts' banner :mrgreen:)

I'll be 51 in a couple of weeks; been reloading for about 5 or 6 years, and casting my own boolits for about 2 or 3 years. Not sure what that makes me :D

I bought a pound of Blue Dot mostly to use in .357 Magnum, but I had trouble with severe leading and occasional case head separations. (I was loading kind of hot.) Also Blue Dot has a bad reputation for having pressure spikes in *cold* weather. And Alliant has posted a warning bulletin not to use BD in .357 Magnum with 125 grain bullets nor in .41 Magnum with any weight bullets. I switched to some surplus powder tha cross-references with AA#7 and all my problems went away -- good thing, cuz I bought 16 pounds of that powder! (I shoud have bought 32 pounds while I had the chance)

I burned up the rest of the Blue Dot in hot .45 Colt loads -- 16.5 grains with 255 grain boolits -- and it worked *great* there.

shotman
10-21-2010, 01:27 AM
I bought some GS for reloading a 357 sig
was impressed by what they done in a 45 colt
loaded about 20 to try in the 357sig
they have a off set in the bullet that is where it needed to be seated in the 357sig case
do you know you cant get a GS out of a sig case when is falls inside?

lwknight
10-21-2010, 02:15 AM
do you know you cant get a GS out of a sig case when is falls inside?

I bet it would be a toughie for sure.
You probably could carefully and manipulatively get it out with a kinetic puller.

Dannix
10-22-2010, 07:24 PM
Coo deal, zxcvbob. Thanks for your input!

shootingbuff
10-23-2010, 09:24 PM
GS have a good track record. Youtube has a few home grown test and comparisons. I used to rave over 124 gr but now matured and prefer 147s - it is what is done to the target, not what is on paper. That said both are good loads if they shoot well out of your gun and function 100 percent,


I have worked with 124 grain 9mm GS for awhile and 6.0 grains WSF (90% cap)gets me 1220 fps with impressive water jug tests.
Now I'm starting to work up 9mm GS 147 grain loads. 6.0 grains is 100% capacity only gets me 1050 fps.

It would seem logical to have the same energy with the same charge and maybe even higher energy from a heavier bullet since some powder is waste in short barrels with light barrels.

Problem and question:
124 grains @1220 fps = 410 lb.ft.
147 graind @1050 fps =360 lb.ft.

Can anyone comment on real life performance test comparing these 2 bullets and is 1050 fps considered plenty good for SD situations. I know that some people think a .380 will do the job but, I do not subscribe to that belief.

If I really want to push the limits I can get 1300 fps from a 124 grain bullet with 460 lb.ft energy but its hard on the gun.
__________________

HeavyMetal
10-24-2010, 02:15 PM
LWKnight:

The book you want to read is Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's Handgun Stopping Power.

In it is the years these guys put in researching both Police shootings and use of the computer man to determine the ability of a handguns ability to stop an assilant.

Lots of info in this book but the real tips aren't the loads that work; It's the loads that don't work


They do print a chart that has been culled from police shootings showing loads that work and the percentage of one stop shots fired with each load.

125 grain for 357 Fed, 96.96 %, 115 grain Fed +P+ 89.47 % for the 9mm

In contrast 158 Fed 357 is 81.03% WW's 147 9mm load is 68.86%

Interesting is the 45 auto numbers both Rem and Fed 230 Ball falls to 60% while the 230 Hyda shock hits 90% the 185 Fed load is 86%.

The book also has a section on "specialty" loads available only to law enforcement. Because these loads have "faults" they were not listed in with the rest of the commercially available ammo.

The "Glaser" was a case in point High RII but can be defeated by a thick coat!

A lighter bullet, cast or jacketed, means a faster, accurate, second shot over a heavier boolit in the same caliber.

To get a 147 to perform as well as the 115 in the 9mm you are going to have to break the 1400 FPS barrier and I don't think that is possible with a 4 inch barrel.

Go to the libary and see if you can find a copy of this book, great reading and it may change your mind on the heavy 9mm load syndrome.

shootingbuff
10-24-2010, 08:21 PM
I guess I should read the entire thread but just skimmed it. :killingpc I already answered the OP question.

To follow up on a couple of errors.

A 147 gr bullet at factory specs will have a softer felt recoil than a 115 and especially a hot 124.

If you look at what the 357Mag does with a 125 gr JHP you will see the hot 9x19 115gr loads do the same thing - go 10-12" and frag ending with a .5+ dia

If a person reads how the results were compiled with the one shot stop myths (M+S) one will see how ineffective it can be. A better idea is figure out what you want a load to do and find multiple tests that point towards those loads that meet you criteria.

Normally one gets more pen with a 147 and more expansion with the 115 and 124s. That stated some of the newer loads do well in both categories. Wanted to get back on the org question. Plus the 147s will have lighter felt recoil and it is designed to work at its loaded vel so additional vel is not required.

Again it is what the bullet does to the target and not what it does on paper or what some writer rants about..

Either of the listed loads would be very good loads if one were not to carry factory ammo.

HeavyMetal
10-25-2010, 01:24 AM
For every action there is an equal and oposite reaction.

One of Newtons Laws of Physhics.

If the 147 grain 9mm load is softer to shoot than the 115 then it is not generating the same power levels.

This means, baring a brain shot, that the 147 will not perform as well as the 115 all else being equal. This is once again demonstrated in the book as all three 147 grain loads used in police shootings were well below the performance levels of the 115 loads

Again I will suggest reading the book I mentioned in an ealier post. The authors went to a great deal of real world research on real world shootings to examine the loads and abilities of each round fired.

Each of the figures I posted was based on every shooting the authors could find using the ammunition specified. I do not believe in the One Shot Stop myth! If the infoormation provided on the book is correct no such ammunition exists.

However the success of some loads over others in a particular caliber certainly seems to me to be a "buying signal" for the ammo that has the highest "batting average" in the caliber discussed.

As always the amount of shootings has been changing since the original printing and as time pass's these will provide more useful data in both arms selection for SD and in construction of ammo intended for specific SD use.

However until a "sequel" is produced I will strongly suggest that the authors of Handgun Stopping Power really do have a clue as to what does and doesn't work and I will continue to use the book as a guideline whenever possible when either suggesting, making, or using Pistol ammo for a SD senerio.

I will once again state my opinion that 147 grain 9mm ammo, in a standard issue police weapon, is a waste of time and effort with the possible exception of personnel entertainment in ones attempt to break Newtons Law and get bragging right for having accomplished the impossible!

lwknight
10-25-2010, 02:12 AM
I still have not had time to work with some slower powders to see if I can at least get the 147 grain bullets to match enegry levels of the 124s.
In my few tests with loose wet dirt , it looks bleek for the 147 grain bullets. I've had cast boolits work better . I'm not giving up completely till I get to try to get a match of energy. Then I will do some terminal tests.

For now , I'm staying with the 124 grain bullets. They are impressive in every way that I have tested. The 9mm case capacity is a very limiting factor and a really good load is like a work of art. I've had 240 grain RN boolits turn inside out and expand to 7/8" with 99% weight retension from my 44 magnum.

Alas! It looks like the 9mm is not going with me into the hog infested woods with me anytime soon.

shootingbuff
10-25-2010, 08:57 PM
I still have not had time to work with some slower powders to see if I can at least get the 147 grain bullets to match energy levels of the 124s.
In my few tests with loose wet dirt , it looks bleak for the 147 grain bullets. I've had cast boolits work better . I'm not giving up completely till I get to try to get a match of energy. Then I will do some terminal tests.

For now , I'm staying with the 124 grain bullets. They are impressive in every way that I have tested. The 9mm case capacity is a very limiting factor and a really good load is like a work of art. I've had 240 grain RN boolits turn inside out and expand to 7/8" with 99% weight retention from my 44 magnum.

Alas! It looks like the 9mm is not going with me into the hog infested woods with me any time soon.

First you are going about in my mind the wrong way. In hunting or self defense you want your firearm to function 100 percent, be accurate or accurate enough for your intended purpose and range, be heavy enough and have enough vel to reach the vitals. If you get expansion/ deformation it is a plus. However you can select your bullet that is supposed to expanded/deform and ensure the bullet will be in its operating envelope.

147 grain bullet loaded with 3n38 should meet your 124 requirements (refer to VV reloading data)

I wouldn't want to take a 9x19 out for hogs.

Remember you can over run a bullet which your energy lvl will be counter productive.

35remington
10-25-2010, 09:35 PM
"Although contrary to what seems logical , it appears that the powder is burning out
before the heavier bullet gets out of the barrel and possibly even losing some velocity to
friction. In contrast , the lighter bullet is getting out of the barrel while the burn is still
in progress and yields higher terminal energy."

In addressing this, we need to acknowledge that pistol powder is completely consumed......as in converted from the solid to a gaseous state, long before the bullet gets anywhere near the end of the barrel. With both loadings. The "burn" isn't "still in progress." It's complete. With identical charges, and assuming identical or greater case space taken up by the heavier bullet, pressures near the muzzle will be higher with the heavier bullet using the same powder charge.

Further, 9mmP ammo fired in carbine length barrels with powder of similar burn rate gets higher velocity than pistol length barrels. So "friction reduction" does not account for the lower energies. Given the 35,000 odd psi of 9mm loads, "friction reduction" isn't operative in 9mmP pistol barrels.

If identical powder charges are used, and the heavier bullet seats deeper in the teeny 9mm case, and assuming bearing surface is the same, the heavier bullet will generate higher pressure but possibly the same or lower energy. The variable is the GS bullet itself. I haven't shot them in the nine, but in 45 ACP the 185 and 230 GS bullets have an unusual design. The front half of the bullet is subcaliber, with a small band at the rear that is full caliber. The front end essentially rides the rifling lands while the small rear band engraves.

In developing such a bullet, it is possible that the pressure/velocity characteristics differ from those bullets that are full caliber to the commencement of the ogive.

I don't know that the nine has bullets shaped in such a way, but it's something to consider. Also worth pondering is the depth of each bullet in the case. Are both the 124 and 147 seated to the same depth? Do both have the same bearing surface length? If not, this could account for some of the differences.

Theoretically, a deep seated bullet robs the nine of some case capacity, and maximum pressures are reached at lower velocities than if the bullet had been seated out....and it can be the very same bullet! The heavier bullet makes it even more so. In theory, a light bullet seated further out of the case can be pushed to a higher potential energy level than a heavy bullet seated deeply, simply because the pressure hits the SAAMI wall sooner with the deep seated heavy bullet.

In my 45 ACP's, which also have a rather stubby case, a shallowly seated 200 LSWC of the HG 68 design gets nearly the same velocity as a 230 LRN that's seated deeper, or only about a few fps faster with the same powder charge. The heavier weight is offset by the deeply seated bullet raising pressures to a higher level so the velocities are comparable even though the bullet's heavier.

With your situation, I'd have to know something about the relative seating depth of the bullets in the case and the comparative length of the bearing surfaces before I can comment more knowledgeably. Those little details really matter a lot.

shootingbuff
10-25-2010, 09:48 PM
One of Newtons Laws of Physhics.

Don't care about Newton or Physics - I am talking shooting and felt rrecoil

If the 147 grain 9mm load is softer to shoot than the 115 then it is not generating the same power levels.

Sure nuff. As an example one of our new shooters reloaded hot 115 gr bullets and shot his 115s and my 147 gr bullets over his chorny back to back made the same PF from the same pistol. From the same pistol say pushing a 124 gr at 1200 and a 147 at 100 they have the same (within a couple of ticks) FPE and the felt recoil is still more of a push than a snap like it is with lighter and faster loads. Recoil is subjective, however the rule of thumb in the shooting sports is to use the heaviest bullet going as fast as required to meet PF is the norm out of non ported guns So for those who make their living shooting or those that shoot more in a month than the avg person in a yr who wants min felt recoil the hvy bullet wins over the light bullet.

This means, baring a brain shot, that the 147 will not perform as well as the 115 all else being equal. This is once again demonstrated in the book as all three 147 grain loads used in police shootings were well below the performance levels of the 115 loads

No you are incorrect - there is no absolutes when talking a fixed wt, or design with generalizations. First what do you the bullet to do? If you want penetration the 147 generally speaking should give you more - it is called sectional density (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectional_density). If you want expansion yesterdays bullets depended a lot on vel - not so for the last few years especially the latest crop of bullets. Looking at FPE and VEL does not tell one what the bullet/load will do when it comes to terminal performance.

Again I will suggest reading the book I mentioned in an ealier post. The authors went to a great deal of real world research on real world shootings to examine the loads and abilities of each round fired.

Already made my comment about that book. You need to understand how the data was compiled and what constituted to a stop. It is far from a DRT situation.

Each of the figures I posted was based on every shooting the authors could find using the ammunition specified. I do not believe in the One Shot Stop myth! If the infoormation provided on the book is correct no such ammunition exists.

However the success of some loads over others in a particular caliber certainly seems to me to be a "buying signal" for the ammo that has the highest "batting average" in the caliber discussed.

As always the amount of shootings has been changing since the original printing and as time pass's these will provide more useful data in both arms selection for SD and in construction of ammo intended for specific SD use.

However until a "sequel" is produced I will strongly suggest that the authors of Handgun Stopping Power really do have a clue as to what does and doesn't work and I will continue to use the book as a guideline whenever possible when either suggesting, making, or using Pistol ammo for a SD senerio.

I will once again state my opinion that 147 grain 9mm ammo, in a standard issue police weapon, is a waste of time and effort with the possible exception of personnel entertainment in ones attempt to break Newtons Law and get bragging right for having accomplished the impossible!

And those are your views from your experiences and readings. Nothing wrong with that as long as one understands one book makes not the world and one keeps an open mind and continues along the path of knowledge. When M&S first started out I followed them. Once I expanded my knowledge base it was clear the shortcomings in M&S one shot calculations.

See ya around

[/QUOTE]

Dannix
10-25-2010, 10:47 PM
Wow, we're really drifting off topic here. I'll go ahead and say I put basically zero stock in Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's Handgun Stopping Power. Another thing, Newton's third law only influences felt recoil in the fact that's there more energy involved.

It's funny this topic, as cause my impression is that a lot of guys here bias towards the heaviest boolit option for a caliber, and don't put stock into HPs for reliably reasons. I've come to appreciate both aspects and concerning the later am eager to see if Hornady comes out with a ~124grn Critical Defense j-word for the 9mm (I'm not in the sticks day in and day out, so FN is not an option due to overpenetration concerns).

I've got to ask -- why did anyone try 147grainers in 9mm anyway? Just to be subsonic, yeah? I actually know a few IDPA/IPSC gamers who are shooting 160grn cast in their 9s.

Personally, there's seems to be a kinetic energy 'sweet zone' for upper-end of a caliber's boolit/j-word grain choices. I just try to stay in that sweet zone unless I've got a good reason, like shooting thick skin game that would normally be beyond that caliber's grasp, going subsonic, plink/squirrel loads, et al.

HeavyMetal
10-25-2010, 11:31 PM
the "heavy Boolit" 9mm loadings started in the mid 80's when everybody and thier brother started to offer a high cap 9mm pistol.

Prior to that time the Browning HP and few S&W model 59 variations were all you could buy or at least readily available.

SHAZAM the U.S. Goverment decided to buy a bunch of Berreta 92's to replace the 1911 with! Suddenly everybody had to have a "high Cap" 9mm and some of the most rediculous pistol ever made hit the market.

Anybody remember the H&K VZ 70 Z? What a joke! Great as the machine pistol it was designed to be. A flop as a carry gun!

With the rush of 9mm guns on the market "gamers" in the IPSC match's started looking for any edge the high cap guns might give them.

The problem was the standard 9mm loads wouldn't make major in those days!

ShootingBuff is right about one thing a heavy boolit traveling at the same speed as a lighter one generates the same or more power.

So the 147 grain 9mm load idea was born!

The problem was to get a 9mm to hit the major PF they had to over pressure the round to get it done! Back in the day the PF for major was I belive 185.

I saw a lot of spectacular 9mm shooting in the mid to late 80's. From guys bound and determind to make a 9mm perform like a 44 magnum.

Until you've seen a mag detach itself from the gun when fired spouting enough flame to make a shuttle lift off jealous you haven't seen anything!

Finally the powers that be forbid 9mm major loads in IPSC match's.

This move started the rage of 38 Super guns as well as the rebirth of a ton of early 1900 9mm rounds such as the 9mm Largo which was reborn as the 9x25 because they could be loaded to meet major with out issue in a proper ramp barreled gun.

I understand some years later IPSC decided to reduce the required PF for 9mm major loads. I have heard it was reduced to a PF of 165 a lot easier and safer to hit with a stock 9mm gun.

I have long since tired of gamers and strange rules to decide what works and what doesn't in a real world application.

For the 9mm Luger round the 147 grain load just hasn't worked as well in reality as it has on paper.

Some day it may but not To Day.

lwknight
10-25-2010, 11:41 PM
For the 9mm Luger round the 147 grain load just hasn't worked as well in reality as it has on paper.
My dabbling into this matter leads me to concurr with your thoughts.
I'm still thinking that I might get the inferior performing 147 grain bullets to be a good penetrator for hogs. I have no intention of hunting hog with less than a SKS 7.62X39 but for wood cutting , carrying a hogleg ( no pun ) 44 magnum is quite a burden.

Dannix
10-26-2010, 12:33 AM
All from gaming huh? Go figure. I would have thought it was purely to develop a subsonic load. I can't imagine trying to make the old major standard with 9x19. 9x19 with the current major standard is unforgiving as it is. Yikes!
:holysheep

I still feel for bad the .356TSW guys. A raw deal from what I've read, and then the twist of the dagger when they lowered the PF, after its death.

lwknight, BRP's 358-136 PB may be right up your alley. I'll probably be picking this one up myself. Or you could just talk yourself into getting a Glock 10mm or something. :mrgreen:

lwknight
10-26-2010, 01:07 AM
Its a quest now. I have to see it for myself just because I'm hard headed that way.
Grey areas bug me. I have to get B&W contrast for things that are ambigeous by nature.

I don't really have any high hopes but , would like to have proof in hand when I argure the " heavy is not always where its at " point. Who knows , I might find something that actually works out against a few odds. Its not like I'm trying to defy logic or something but , like I sais , there is still a little grey area.

shootingbuff
10-26-2010, 08:28 PM
Gents,

Subsonic loads were produced for SOF for suppressed firearms. They started making inroads in the civie market after some un-smart person thought 115 bullets didn't pen enough after first passing through an arm.etc yada-yada. So.., in dem days the best way to get more pen was a hvr bullet. It is again called SD which seems to have been missed on my first post.

38Super pushed the envelope early in IPSC and that is where super face came from. Then the guns that held the most BBs in those early days were 9x19s so they were pushed to the 175 (if me serves PF). From there the 9x19 got regulated out of shooting major, Now it is back in because the PF has been lowered to 165, plus new powders. VV3n38 looks like the best powdeer to ring the most out of 147gr bullet.

I know folks who run 155 gr cast and I might but my bullet runs about 142/143. Cheap and the bullet works fine for minor not major.

Again terminal performance needs to be looked at not paper results. By default the 147 bullets can drive as deep with less vel as a generalization and I wouldn't want to use a 9x19 on a hog, but if I did I would use a solid 147gr or maybe a 147 XTP.

Best.

shootingbuff
10-26-2010, 08:32 PM
All from gaming huh? Go figure. I would have thought it was purely to develop a subsonic load. I can't imagine trying to make the old major standard with 9x19. 9x19 with the current major standard is unforgiving as it is. Yikes!
:holysheep

I still feel for bad the .356TSW guys. A raw deal from what I've read, and then the twist of the dagger when they lowered the PF, after its death.

lwknight, BRP's 358-136 PB may be right up your alley. I'll probably be picking this one up myself. Or you could just talk yourself into getting a Glock 10mm or something. :mrgreen:

Oh my a G20 :smile:

Dannix
01-23-2011, 03:47 AM
Here's something I came across a while back, and since I came across this thread again via a bookmark, I'd thought I'd share:

"Remington 147-grain Golden Saber (786954), $16.79 per box of 25. Don’t Buy. This round had the most impressive recovered bullet, displaying a double mushroom, but it was also the deepest penetrating round at 24 inches, so we cannot recommend it. "

"Both the Winchester Supreme and Remington Golden Saber over-penetrated, in our estimation. The Golden Saber did have an impressive double mushroom that measured a whopping 0.661 inch in width."
http://www.gunreports.com/special_reports/ammo/9MM-Hollowpoint-Ammunition192-1.html

Based on this report, they seem like good rounds for the bottom of the mag rather than the top. One thing to also consider -- If you're loading your own self defense rounds with GS bullets, if I'm not mistaken the bonded GS bullets are not available as components and bonded factory cartridges are not directly marketed to the peon market. I don't think I need to explain that bonded is desired for jword loads that will be relied on for serious social purposes.



Gents,

Subsonic loads were produced for SOF for suppressed firearms. They started making inroads in the civie market after some un-smart person thought 115 bullets didn't pen enough after first passing through an arm.etc yada-yada. So.., in dem days the best way to get more pen was a hvr bullet. It is again called SD which seems to have been missed on my first post.
hvr? sd? Could you reword this? It didn't get through my thick skull.

shootingbuff
01-30-2011, 10:32 AM
Heavier as in heavier wt of the bullet]
Sectional Density as in lay terms how the bullet resists wind and penetrates - all else being equal.

Dannix
01-31-2011, 12:03 AM
I guess my post reflects how little PMing and IMing I do. :mrgreen: The sectional density comment makes sense now that hvr is comprehended. Thanks


Heavier as in heavier wt of the bullet]
Sectional Density as in lay terms how the bullet resists wind and penetrates - all else being equal.

shootingbuff
01-31-2011, 11:13 AM
I guess my post reflects how little PMing and IMing I do. :mrgreen: The sectional density comment makes sense now that hvr is comprehended. Thanks

I get in a hurry and am lazy - sorry about that.

Dannix
02-02-2011, 02:23 PM
No worries.

Dannix
02-13-2011, 12:31 AM
I'm not sure where the limit is for consistent HPs for these guys, but I happened to noticed this and decided to post here.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29414&stc=1&d=1297571145
Source: GoldenLoki.com .380acp Gel Tests (http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm)

Of course I don't expect anyone here running HPs would be comfortable with running them so slow, but I'd thought I'd post just the same.

One interesting note is that it seems Speer nailed it when they developed their .380 Auto GoldDot load. I almost wonder if those numbers are in error, but based on the looks of the HP, they look reasonable.

lwknight
02-13-2011, 01:58 AM
I looked at their test on the 124 grain 9mm bullet.
At 1009 fps it did its job. So evidently the 147 grain bullets at 1050 would work too.
My 124 grain bullets run about 1220 fps on medium loads and can be kicked up over 1300 pretty easily in a 3.5" barrel.

I did get over expansion and jacket separation in my 124 grain tests. I still have not worked with the 147s. Just one more thing on the list LOL..