300 gr Cast Bullets Needed

[Marc Adamchek]

Hi! I'm a new member of this fascinating board. A lot of knowledgeable people here, and this is apparent from just a short time on board, really a great resource.

Anyway, to cut to the chase: I live in Massachusetts. I learned last week when trying to place an order for powder at Midway USA that they will not ship "hazardous materials to Massachusetts". OK

Today I went online to Midaway and ordered a variety of cast bullets (rifle) of the type mentioned in the subject line and learned that they also will not ship ANY part of a cartridge that could be dangerous. Wow.

I recently got a beautiful OLD Alex Henry 450 BPE 3 1/4 hammer double rifle. The previous owner (Ken Owen) said the best regulating load he could come up with is a 300 gr soft point over 48 grs IMR 4198. And he sent a 50 yard target with a 3 inch group as an illustrated point.

Now, I plan on delving into more experimental (but SAFE) loads when the winter freeze is on. Then, come nice weather, I'll try them out to see ifI can do better and get a custom mould to match.

I should mention here that I have Graeme Wright's 2nd and excellent 3rd edition on shooting British Double Rifles, along with some Sherman Bell articles culled from Double Gun Journal, for a lot of information on good, safe load options for my rifle's calibre.

I should perhaps also mention here that I've been purchasing, bit by bit, casting equipment since last spring and plan to get into casting roundballs later this month for my various trad (replica) BP rifles and smoothbores. So I'll be a new caster shortly. Hopefully I'll have it down well enough for bullets.

I apologize; I'm trying to fit too much information here and I'm ending up rambling. The real single question now: Where, or from whom, could I purchase a variety of different 300 gr bullets (.458)?

I know from past experience that other vendors have no problem shipping components to Mass. In fact, within an hour of the turn-down from Midway on the powder I found someone and 4 lbs were shipped out that day.

Someone on another board awhile back suggested to someone else to check out a fellow by the name of Eddie Maysle(sp?). an independent caster who can usually make up a variety of bullets for you to try out, in sufficient quantity I'm sure, before you commit to one or the other as the custom mould prospect. He's not on the web, you need to contact him by phone. Sounds like a good, thoughtful guy.

So that's it for now, gentleman. I turn to you for suggestions. Any and all help will be greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks - Marc

[RobS]

You can try Kittery Trading Post out in your neck of the woods.

http://www.ktp.com/index.php

[runfiverun]

i'm just gonna throw in a welcome.
no clue as to where to look at buying proper boolits, except bullshop and he's near impossible to get ahold of this time of year.
be aware most commercial guys will be using 2/6/92 alloy which may be incorrect for your purpose.
you' will want to know your guns bbl dimensions at minimum so you can order the proper diameter at least.

[nicholst55]

You can try Kittery Trading Post out in your neck of the woods.

http://www.ktp.com/index.php

"ATTENTION: The online sale of this item is prohibited to MA, DC and Canada."

Never mind.

[XWrench3]

Today I went online to Midaway and ordered a variety of cast bullets (rifle) of the type mentioned in the subject line and learned that they also will not ship ANY part of a cartridge that could be dangerous. Wow.


so, who's definition of dangerous do they use? to some people, EVERY part of it would be dangerous, to others, none of it would be dangerous. to hillery clinton, the word gun, ammo or components is dangerous.:Fire: can you order loaded ammo? none of it makes any sense to me. if you have a relative that lives out of state, have them order it, or you order it and have it sent to their home, and have them send it to you as fruitcake. wrap it in tin fil so if they x-ray it, nothing but a blob can be seen. or, if you are close to a border, rent a "po box" from a "UPS STORE" and have them ship it there. one thing is for certain, you have way to many anti-gun IDIOTS in power in your state. get EVERY GUN OWNER united for the next few years, and VOTE THEM OUT OF OFFICE! the reason these politicians want gun (and ammo, etc.) control is that they are afraid we might actually stand up and take our country back!:redneck:

[buck1]

Welcome!!

[RobS]

"ATTENTION: The online sale of this item is prohibited to MA, DC and Canada."

Never mind.

I was hoping he didn't live too far from them, but yes............forget ordering on-line/by phone even from a place in-state.

[dragonrider]

Welcome Marc, glad you found your way here.

[elk hunter]

Marc,

Welcome aboard.

You're going to love your AH 450. Beautiful rifle, wonderful caliber. Does it have Henry rifling? If so it should like paper patch bullets. You may want to try some type of 300 grain, 45 caliber pistol bullet patched up to fit your rifle. If you haven't already, look at the paper patch section of the forum for lots of good information. I see 300 grain soft point mentioned, which translates to jacketed bullets, Sierra makes one of those with a thin jacket that may work for you.

I'm just a bit jealous as I passed up two different Alex Henry BPE rifles as too expensive, I now regret that decision in both instances.

Hope you find a bullet that works.

[fryboy]

wow ...... seems the anti's always have other tactics up their ummmm sleeves btw ? thoughts are/can be dangerous and i bet they are working on banning those too [sigh] other than buying a mold i really have no clue as to how u best mite be helped other than driving across state lines ( at least it is a small state ) or moving ( like that idea second best- first is get rid of ur anti gunners ) good luck amigo !

[Marc Adamchek]

ALL of you are correct in your stance/opinion/anger. But The strange thing that I found out is that Midway USA are the ONLY company that refused to send powder, primers, or cast bullets to me. I don't know if this is an actual law in this socialist state or a policy of Midway's, for whatever obscure reason. I found others who gladly sent me the first two items and I 'll keep searching to find someone who'll send me the last items.

Elk Hunter - Thanks for the encouraging words and information

[Blammer]

doesn't Mastercaster here make boolits he can buy?

[GabbyM]

In the great state of Massachusetts. You can't receive cast bullets mail order. However an FFL business can. Yo need to either have them delivered to a friendly local business or a friend in a neighboring state not to far off your path. You'll need to look up the fine points of that law as I'm only going by memory. Far as I know Massachusetts is the only State or territory that fouled up.

[Doc Highwall]

If you are not to far from East Hartford CT. you can go to the Cabelas there.

[Marc Adamchek]

Doc - that's a possibility I hadn't thought of. Thanks.

Guys, I think I'll write a letter to the president. I'm sure he'd understand and get things fixed up in this state. After all, he did have over 30 unpaid parking tickets from his school daze but DID pay up once he was president. So he sounds like a stand-up guy.........

[montana_charlie]

This is an example of a person who needs (in the worst way) to be able to cast his own bullets. Because of the restricted situation in Massachusetts, my reply will focus on obtaining a mould rather than trying to buy bullets.

I would start by making a good-quality chamber cast of the rifle.

With the dimensions from that, the rifling twist rate in your barrel(s), and any historical information on successful bullets in that rifle/caliber, I would contact a custom mould maker for assistance in getting a proper bullet design identified...and having a mould for it made.

In the meantime, Page 11 of the NEI catalog ( http://www.neihandtools.com/catpages/mold_pg11.htm ) has pictures of their .458 offerings in the 'about 300 grain' range.
If you see a useful design which has a rebate for a gas check, NEI will supply the mould with it removed, if a plain base is your preference.
I suggest the NEI catalog not because I advise you to buy a mould from them, but because it has good pictures of designs which come from various sources. I don't think NEI has any designs they claim as their own.

Speaking to their mould quality, I have three...all in aluminum...and all very satisfactory, in my estimation.

CM

[qajaq59]

Kittery's is up in Maine. Give them a call and if they have what you need, then take a drive. And the gunlaws in MA are so screwed up now that even the DA in Boston can't figure them out anymore. Which is another reason I now live in FL.

[Marc Adamchek]

Charlie - I had NEI cast me a beautiful mould last spring for my .72 Kodiak. They sure do good work.

I have always planned on getting a custom mould for my 450 BPE, but just wanted to check out a bunch of different "off the shelf" 300 grain bullets because that's what the previous owner specified as the best size bullet with 48 grs IMR 4198 to bet a about a 3 inch Lefr/right spread at 50 yds, and he gave me a target to prove it.

As far a slugging the barrel and chamber area (Henry tapered rifling) I was planning on using Veral Smith at LBT, but his instructions read like Chinese to me, and he charges for every darn thing. Want a sprue plate with that mould? 20 bucks. How bout a couple screws to hook up/adjust that sprue plate? OK, another 75 cents.

It just seemed like I was getting in over my head, I thought I'd just "fool around" with a variety of 300 grain bullets and then start learning the whole slugging process and getting a custom mould when winter started up.

To tell you the truth, I haven't quite given up on that plan. I think I'll be able to find some bullets and go through the process I explained, absolutely no disrespect to your suggestion.

Well, I guess I'll have to see if I can actually DO that. I forgbot to mention that the dies I ordered from Buffalo Arms are on backorder. Could you or anyone else here suggest a place to get some RCBS dies (other than RCBS) for 450 BPE 3 1/4?

[elk hunter]

Marc,

I forgot to say, when it comes to Nitro for black loads and grooved lubricated cast bullets most Henry rifling likes real hard bullets as in water quenched wheel weights or linotype. The original loadings were 120 grains of black powder, most likely Curtis & Harvey #6, and bullets were 270 grain at 1975 fps, 310 grain at 1800 fps, 325 grain at 1775 fps and 365 grain at 1700 fps. I just measured two original bullets, one paper patch and one grooved lubricated, loaded in Eley cases and they measured .450 to .451 just in front of the case mouth. From what I can see that would be the o.d. of the bullets inside the case. Keep in mind that the conventional wisdom is that lead bullets bump up when fired with a black powder load.

From the previous owners use of jacketed bullets it sounds like the bores may be worn. Jackets being harder than lead generally, but not always, shoot better in worn bores.

If it were me, I'd try every 45 caliber cast bullet between .451 and .460 and 250 to 375 grains that I could get my hands on. My 500-450 with very worn Henry rifling likes the "Laser Cast" brand 350 grain .459 bullet. The "Laser Cast" bullets are very hard.

Good luck with your project. Keep us posted on how it shoots.

[Bob J]

Hi Marc,
Would also like to take this opportunity to welcome you to the forum.... I think you will find (like I did) that this is a great place with great folks that have a huge amount of insight into the wonderful world of casting....

I also live in the state of Mass though east of you in Quincy and have to agree with you that Mass is a PITA... Can't help you with buying bullets since I cast my own but there are a number of shops around that sell reloading supplies....

One great resource in this neck of the woods that you might want to check out is the Northeast shooters forum.... Another great group of guys as well as a specific section for gun shops.... If you post your questions there you should be able to find something local....

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/forum.php

Also there is a cast bullet workshop being set up for spring in your area..... It's free and covers all the basics.... The guy that runs it is very knowledgeable and always does a great job.... Might be worth a look....:wink:

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/109022-ANNOUNCING-May-21st-2011-Third-Annual-Bullet-Casting-Workshop

[montana_charlie]

As far a slugging the barrel and chamber area (Henry tapered rifling) I was planning on using Veral Smith at LBT, but his instructions read like Chinese to me, and he charges for every darn thing. Want a sprue plate with that mould? 20 bucks. How bout a couple screws to hook up/adjust that sprue plate? OK, another 75 cents.
Normally, you would do your chamber casting and bore slugging BEFORE beginning your contact with Veral, or any other source of bullet moulds.

Those actions tell you what size bullet you are looking for.

CM

[Marc Adamchek]

OK - I just read two more great posts and I will reply to both now:

1. Elk Hunter - Thanks again for your helpful knowledge. As an aside, I was planning on hard cast (linotype) solely on Sherman Bell's word in a DGJ arfticle on the 450 BPE. Interesting note on the jacketed bullet/worn barrel syndrome. I hope this isn't the case, but I guess the proof will be in the pudding, as they say. I had planned on testing a variety of .45 cast bullet weights and sizes, although not quite as comprehensive as you mention. But IF I can get 'em, I sure will! By the way, where do you get your "Laser Cast" bullets, or is that some casting jargon I haven't learned yet? The original load you mention was read by me about an hour after I read it in an old Ross Seyfried DGJ article, so for a brief moment I could nod my head knowledgeably and say"yes, that's right"!

2. Bob, greetings from the western end of the republic! Sure can put a damper on our fun, can't they? This latest bit with the "NO shipping lead that can be made into a dangerous cartridge" is by far the wackiest I've run into yet. I get the feeling if I go begging some garage for wheel weights I'll be followed home by a couple cops! Thanks a REAL lot for the links. The link for the cast bullet workshop is right out of my daydreams. I swear, I fouond myself at the beginning of the summer when I was purchasing casting equipment wishing that just such a thing would exist, and here you go and hand it to me - outstanding! They can definitely count me in.

Many Thanks to one and all - Marc

[GabbyM]

Boston, MA site of our first Tea Party. How times have changed.

You'd think with the unclean masses not able to receive boolits through mail your businesses selling reloading supplies would stock boolits on the shelf or at least receive mail order for you.

[JIMinPHX]

Well, first off, you need to move to NH, or at least get a PO box up there. I used to have an FFL location in the city of Boston, & I've got to tell you, It was no walk in the park to deal with the state & city officials there. The feds were fine back then, it was just the local bureaucrats that were an impossible bunch of crooks to deal with.

That aside, if you give us a little more information about what you want to use the rile for & the type of performance you are looking for, it will probably help us to help you.

I didn't know much about that particular rifle, so I did a quick bit of Googling. I found some references to Damascus steel barrels. If you have that type of barrel, then IMR 4198, or any other modern smokeless powder should not be used at all. Damascus barrels are only designed to handle the pressures generated by old fashioned Black Powder or it's modern substitutes. Most of the other references that I found to those guns said that they were made in the late 1800s. That would also make me think Black powder. If BPE stands for Black Powder Express, than that would cinch it for me & I'd start looking at the proof marks on the gun before bringing a single grain of modern smokeless powder anywhere near it.

If I were you, I would find out what type of barrel you have, check for proof marks, measure the groove diameter of the barrels & then decide how to proceed. It appears that you have a real desirable old collectible in your hands there. I'd proceed with caution of I were you.

Welcome to the board by the way.:drinks:

[elk hunter]

Marc,

First off, "Laser Cast" is a brand name. They're made in Baker City, Oregon and you can locate them on the internet.

http://laser-cast.com/

I see a post about Damascus barrels. Your rifle was probably shot with as many or more "nitro for black" loads as it was with black powder. The British sportsman that owned a BPE was just as interested in the new smokeless powders as we are, so nitro for black loads were developed just for those rifles by Kynoch and other companys. With 4198 the correct load would be 40%, by weight, of the original black powder load, which in your case was 120 grains, which translates to 48 grains which, if I remember your first post correctly, is what Mr. Owens was using in your rifle.

If your rifle does have Damascus barrels and you decide you don't wish to shoot it, send it along to me I'll do the right thing and give it decent burial along side my twenty or so other Damascus barreled guns. But for heavens sake don't tell Sherman Bell or Ross Seyfried, they'll be wanting to dispose of it.

Kidding aside, unless there is some flaw in the barrels, and it should have shown up long before now, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it with the proper loads.


You should get your hands on Graeme Wrights book "Shooting the British Double Rifle. Loads of good information. Another thought is to log on to the "Nitro Express" forum and the "Accurate Reloading" forum and see if there is anyone in your area that shoots BPE rifles. It's nice to have a knowledgeable friend when you first get in to this type of fun.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/

http://nitroexpress.com/

Enjoy your rifle, it's a wonderful piece of history to shoot and hunt with.

[DIRT Farmer]

Marc, I am intersted in the mould you you had made for the 72 Kodiac. Mine is an experience with a right smart of ffg and RB but I have thought a conical would be useful if I ever get to do the dream hunt.

[Marc Adamchek]

Jim, with all due respect, I have been shooting nitro loads through damascus barrels for close to 9 years. All were shotguns, it's true, but all were proofed in either Birmingham or London, with all information on the water table and barrel flats.

I only shoot 12 bore shotguns, and the usual nitro load stamped by the proof house is for 2 1/2 cartridges. The proper pressure of the load is also stamped there. Although, my Westley Richards, made in 1890, was reproofed in the eighties, I suspect because the chambers were bored out to 2 3/4 before being shipped to the states, since that's a common length of 12 gaue cartridges here. That was proofed for 2 3/4 cartridges.

I only use 2 1/2 12 gauge low pressure (below or around 7,000) 1 ounce loads in ALL my old shotguns, damascus or fluid steel barrels. In fact, my usual woods gun is a 12 bore W J Jeffery 12 made in 1924 with fluid steel barrels. Before I bought tghat gun years ago I still made sure it had been proofed to be safe. Again, fluid steel barrels shot with 2 1/2 low pressure loads.

There's a whole sequence of articles by Sherman Bell in the DGJ going back at ledast 15 years called "Finding Out for Myself" in which he tests huge pressure proof loads in all sorfts of damascus and fluid steel barrels in all kinds of condition (some "wallhangers") from a long time ago. I think to date only one set of barrels blew open, and they were fulid steel. As I remember, a couple may have been shot "off face" but I can't recall the type of barrel).

Amyway, his reports to date have shown how strong damascus steel was/is. When fluid steel first came into production, many makers marketed them "as strong as damascus steel".

Anyway, I didn't mean to ramble on so much. The literature is out there for anyone to investigate. Another champion of damascus steel was the late, great Oscar Gaddy. A very interesting metallurigist with a long history of study devoted to different steels.

But yes, ultimatgely I would LOVE to find an all black powder load for my Henry - perhaps I will. But the "nitro for black" l;oads I intend to use haave all been proven to be safe. Remebertoo that our black powder is much different from the black powder of yore.

Well, I've rambled so much that I've used up available time and hae to leave to get some work done. I'll pick up the thread later on to answer and thank other contributors to this thread.

Many Thanks, as always - Marc

[Marc Adamchek]

DIRT Farmer - go to the NEI website. The mould is number 732. It's 835 grs For some reason the guy makinig it had some trouble and it took about 8 to 10 weeks before I got it. All NEI moulds need RCBS handles (in case you didn't know). - Marc