Need help with a 30-30 plinking load

[Centaur 1]

I have a Marlin 336SS 30-30, the barrel slugs at exactly .308. My mold is a Lee 150 grain FN and I removed the gas check step with a .311 reamer. I left a small portion of the step to act as an extra lube groove. The boollits are dropping right at .3105. My alloy is range lead, it's a 50/50 mix of jacketed and cast pistol bullets, I don't know the hardness.

My first attempt resulted in horrible leading at the last four inches of the barrel near the muzzle. I had tumble lubed the bullets with alox and loaded them using Unique. I tried both 8 grain and 9 grains of powder.

I'm scrapping the alox and I'm thinking about trying them with a pan lube. I use the Barry Darr lube parrafin/vasoline/stp recipe that I found here. It's hot year round here in Florida so I added an extra piece of parrafin to keep the mixture solid. I've never used any commercial lubes but it's still much softer than the lube that comes on store bought boolits.

I'm sure that my problem was caused by using only alox since the first 16" of barrel was lead free. Alox has always worked good for me on pistol boolits but I'm assuming that 20" of barrel is just too long for it.

What else should I do to make this load work? I just want a plinking load to use at the indoor range. I know that everyone here jokes about loading everything over ten grains of Unique, but I'm afraid that it might be too much for what I'm doing. What would be a better starting point so my velocity stays low enough to keep from leading?

Thanks for any and all help........Mike

[Bass Ackward]

Cut the charge, get harder lead or put the GC back on. :grin:

Try water dropping the slug, maybe, just maybe, it will have enough to harden some /enough.

[grouch]

Hard to say. I'd try adding 1 or 2% tin and hand lubing with an automotive grease. I've had good results with 7 or 8gr of unique, 13 or14gr 2400, 14 or15gr H110.
Grouch

[Wayne Smith]

Using Darr's lube even hardened, if it's that soft, may be running out - i.e. not enough for the length of the barrel. If you can make it lithium grease and beeswax combined was an adequate lube for years and still is. Used to be sold as Lithibee Lube.

I'll bet your lube is slippery enough but is running out or- if harder - not being adequately delivered.

[leadman]

Buy some lube from Glen at White Label Lube, a sponsor here. BAC or Carnuba Red is easy to apply by hand. Look at the bottom of the page for Lar's LsStuff and click on it.
You can try your lube if you want, just easier to use a known good product, then after everything is working right try your lube.
Water drop your bullets to harden them. Unique should work, but if still leading try SR4759, 5744, or 2400. Even Blue Dot is a good powder.

[Larry Gibson]

That alloy is going to have a very high content of antimony. I use that range recovered alloy also and add 3 - 5% tin to make it stop leading. Your bullet should then do fine with LLA but I suggest you are also driving it too fast. Try 5.5 or 6 gr of Bullseye with that bullet.

Many have asked about using GC'd bullets w/o the GC. I used that very bullet to experiment with in the 30-30, .308W and '06. I have cast numerous of them with my range lead + the tin and shoot them over the Bullseye load. accuracy is as good as it will get. I suggest keeping the velocity under at 1050 - 1200 fps for such loads. That also includes your modifies mould with an actual PB.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

IMO Barry Darr lube is marginal at best for what you're doing. I think the Unique should be just fine, but like Larry said a faster powder might work better. The reasoning there is that you can build more pressure and get better burn, boolit/bore obturation, case sealing in the chamber, etc. and still keep the velocities low with a faster burning powder.

What I would do, changing one thing at a time, is first get some BAC from White Label Lubes or make some Lithibee as has been recommended. Pan lube with that and go back to eight grains of Unique. If that doesn't cure it, add a one-grain tuft of Dacron fluffed in the case to fill the space between the boolit base and powder, DON'T pack it down tight against the powder, this *can* cause chamber rings. Another member here recently had leading near the breech end with a .32 Win Spl. using Unique, Red Dot, and plain-based boolits. Just adding Dacron cured his problem, although he was using commercial boolits prelubed.

If you still have issues, I'd say switch to a light charge of Red Dot.

For my latest version of light plinker loads, I use a similar boolit without the check and lubed with Felix lube, a charge of Longshot, and a grain of Dacron. Gets me 1" groups at 50 yards (about 3" low) with barleycorn/buckhorn sights if I do my part.

The good thing about light .30-30 loads is that just about anything will work if you have a good lube and good boolit fit.

But trust me on the Dacron.

Gear

[geargnasher]

That alloy is going to have a very high content of antimony. I use that range recovered alloy also and add 3 - 5% tin to make it stop leading.
Larry Gibson

That's a new one to me, Larry, in a few instances I've had less leading with less tin. Any idea why adding tin to that particular alloy helped?

Gear

[Centaur 1]

I forgot to add that I am water dropping the boolits. I haven't tried the barry darr lube yet, I only tried Alox and it wasn't enough. I've been pan lubing my 9mm boolits and I shoot them out of an AR with a 16" barrel, and I've never had any lead left in that barrel. The 9mm boolit that I'm shooting only has 1 lube groove and my .30 cal boolit has 3 of them. I'm hoping that should work and I realize that I was pushing my luck by trying to use Alox in a 30-30. The Alox did get the boolit within 4" of the muzzle before it left any lead in the barrel. I've also tried some very unscientific ways of testing the hardness of my lead. Over the years I've used all the various methods of testing hardness of materials as soft as RTV and rubber as well as rockwell testing steel when it came back from heat treatment so I understand how it works. When I scratch pure lead with my fingernail I can get it to dig in, but not with my alloy. I tried scraping various pieces of lead with a piece of plastic. The plastic really digs into soft swaged wadcutters and shotgun slugs, I get a small scratch in store bought cast boolits and virtually no scratching with the lead that I'm using. When I push a center punch straight into my boolits by hand, it's harder to penetrate than the store bought ones. Like I said, very unscientific, but I know that I'm not working with a soft alloy. I don't have a chronograph but using 9 grains of Unique is probably faster than I need. I know that it's comparing apples to oranges but in the 9mm I'd only be using about 4 grains of powder, so maybe using 9 grains is too fast for an unchecked boolit. I bought the Unique because I read here that it's not sensitive to the position of the powder in the case when using very reduced loads. I want to give it one more try before giving up on it. What would be a good starting point for using Unique, could I go down to 4 or 5 grains without sticking a boolit in the barrel?

[TCFAN]

Hi Mike
I have been shooting a plinking load in my 336W that uses a Lee group buy 311041PB cast with 50/50 WW and lead. I use 8.0grs. of Unique and any large rifle primer.This load shoots real good over my 100 yard range using peep sights.
I have fired about 200 rounds over the last couple week and have not had any leading at all.The boolits are sized at .311 and lubed with BAC.
I don't know what to say about your leading issue except maybe your barrel being stainless steel might have something to do with it........Terry

[geargnasher]

Centaur, throw those back in the pot, recast and drop them on a towel next time. Get some BAC, and try again with the Unique. I shoot softer alloy like TCFAN does, and harder boolits for low-pressure stuff is a problem in itself. You might even make the LLA work if you use a softer alloy.

Gear

[Centaur 1]

You guys are awesome, there was three replies just while I was typing my last post. You're all giving me lots of options to try. I know that you should only change things one at a time so that I know what causing any problems. Since I haven't had any sucess yet I think that I need to start over. I'm really tight on money right now so I'm hoping to make things work using what I already have. I have bullseye too, so maybe I should start with it and use the dacron filler. I can see some sort of lubrisizer going on my christmas list. Thanks again everyone.

[excess650]

I don't think the hardness is the issue as much as inadequate lube is. I would think that most any of the soft commercial lubes should work at that low velocity. Apply via lubrisizer or panlube, but fill the grooves.

[PAT303]

I use 8grns of Trail Boss with the Lee 150grn and my '94 shoots very well with A/C boolits,I've been shooting allot of plinker loads lately and all my rifles seem to shoot better with softer boolits and light loads..Either that or I've got better with the practise,I'm happy either way. Pat

[Larry Gibson]

That's a new one to me, Larry, in a few instances I've had less leading with less tin. Any idea why adding tin to that particular alloy helped?

Gear

In high antimony content alloys with little tin the some of the antimony crystalizes seperate from the lead when the alloy begins to solidify. This seperation of lead from the antimony, even in small amounts, causes leading. The addition of tin increases the castbility and maintains the antimony in suspension during the cooling period. It is explained, though not very clear to many, in Dennis marshals article The Metallurgy of Molten Lead Alloys in Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook.

It is probably exacerbated by Centaur 1's WQing the bullets. That is not needed nor desired for such low pressure PB cast bullet loads.

Larry Gibson

[Centaur 1]

I use 8grns of Trail Boss with the Lee 150grn and my '94 shoots very well with A/C boolits,I've been shooting allot of plinker loads lately and all my rifles seem to shoot better with softer boolits and light loads..Either that or I've got better with the practise,I'm happy either way. Pat

"Better with practice" is what I'm hoping for by using a plinking load. I'm sure that part of my problem might be with the micro-groove rifling. It's my understanding that the Winchesters like cast boolits better than Marlins.

[XWrench3]

i am using the same mold in my glenfield, which is basicly the same gun. microgroove barrel and all. anyway, i have not modified my mold, (although, now that you have said this, i may do one side) and shoot without the gas checks for plinking. i shoot them like you do, as cast. i use lla as well, except i put a tablespoon of lyman powdered moly in a bottle of lla. i also, coat them twice, and leave them set for 2-3 days between coats, and loading. usually, i use bullseye to plink with, but i have on occasion ran (up to 20 grains) of reloader 7 or 15 through, with no big problems. i do not shoot many of them at any one time. if i am going to shoot full loads, i use the gas checks, and my own home made lube. to test the lube (before i shoot it) i take it, put it on something black, and set it in the sun for a few hours. if it does not melt to liquid, then i will load and try it out. of course, i learned that the hard way, and had to unload 20 rounds that the lube had melted, and ruined the powder. i hope this helps.

[runfiverun]

i'd not waterdrop also.
and double coat the lla or find the 45/45/10 lube sticky and try that first.
then go along
but i'd bet that works for you.

[PAT303]

"Better with practice" is what I'm hoping for by using a plinking load. I'm sure that part of my problem might be with the micro-groove rifling. It's my understanding that the Winchesters like cast boolits better than Marlins.

I think the marlin has a better trigger,then again any rifle would have a better trigger than a '94. Pat

[Ole]

Heck I was going to suggest you keep loading what you have but cut the last 4" off your barrel. :bigsmyl2: [smilie=f:

[geargnasher]

Larry, I'm familiar with that article and I get how the binary and ternary alloys form their structures, and how what forms first is determined by percentage, but I never thought that pure lead nodules would contribute to "leading". If you add a bunch of tin to suck up the Sb and form mostly Sb/Sn, is that intermetallic compound not functioning independent of the lead? I realize that in certain proportions, like around Lyman #2, the lead still freezes first followed by the Sb/Sn, but when you get over a certain amount, IIRC that would be proportions higher than the ternary eutectic point, the Sb/Sn again freezes first causing brittleness and lead exclusion.

Is the goal for a ternary alloy resistant to "leading" to use proportions only in which the lead freezes first (WW, WW+2%Sn, Hardball, Lyman#2, etc.) and the Sb isn't given a chance to form dentrites?

Gear

[Centaur 1]

Heck I was going to suggest you keep loading what you have but cut the last 4" off your barrel. :bigsmyl2: [smilie=f:

This gun is just too darm pretty to start cutting, buuuut I've been keeping my eyes open for a used and abused old Marlin to do just that. I want one so bad I can taste it. I'm planning on cutting the barrel to 16 1/8", add a large loop lever, paint it with duracoat, refinish the stock with antique oil, put on an XS rail and ghost ring sights, and top it off with a low power scout scope. [smilie=w:

[Rocky Raab]

Better make that 16 ½" The BATFE sometimes uses a funky yardstick. They ain't NASA.

I never get leading in my 24" Savage 340 .30-30. I use (depending on my whim) straight LLA, straight JPW, or the popular 45/45/10 mix - always dusted with mica. Cast 150 to 170-gr bullets shot plain-based over 6-7 grains of almost any fast pistol powder from Bullseye to Green Dot give me just under 1200 fps for a great plinker load. 700X seems most accurate in my rifle.

For full power, I slap a gas check on and load over 16.0 2400 or 20.0 5744. They depart the premises at 2000 fps.

[Centaur 1]

That's the second person to say 6 grains of bullseye. My new starting point is going to be 6 grains of BE with a 1 grain tuft of dacron. I pan lubed my boolits this afternoon with the barry darr lube. I also smoothed the edge on my home made kake cutter, I was shaving a little lead when I tried to cut the first batch from the lube pan, the ones that I lubed today look good. I also made a play date with a friend of mine to go to the indoor range on Sunday afternoon. I'll post my results when I get back, thanks again everyone for all of your help.

[Recluse]

I've used that 45/45/10 for some 170FN boolits loaded for plinking and had no leading--but I also had the boolits gas-checked.

However, I've taken that same 45/45/10 and added some of randyrat's beeswax to it to form a stick lube and then sized/lubed without gas checks and fired away with zero leading and a clean bore--I used 7 grains of Unique. Felt like I was shooting a .22 rifle.

You can use that same concoction (the tumble-lube mix hardened with beeswax) and it makes an excellent pain-lubing formula.

:coffee:

[Larry Gibson]

Centaur 1

You don't need the tuft of dacron with Bullseye. It ignites easily in the 30-30 case and with that bullet it will not be position sensitive especially with 6 gr. I use 2.7 gr Bullseye under a 90 gr SWC by the thousands without any problems. I also regularly use 6 gr with the RCBS 150 gr cast bullet without a filler or wad.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

Larry, I was throwing the Dacron recommendation out there NOT to aid combustion or locate powder, I was recommending it specifically for the side effect it has with PB boolits and light/medium charges of pistol powders: For whatever reason, it can significantly reduce leading, increase velocity slightly, and improve groups. I agree it isn't needed for the powder. Most of the time it isn't needed at all. I don't use it much either in .30-30 unless I'm loading plinkers with no gas checks, it's worth it for the accuracy improvement and the bore cleanliness, and is much cheaper than gas checks. The only way to know for sure if it will help is to try it both ways and see what happens at his shooting range, you know how that goes!

Gear

[Bret4207]

In high antimony content alloys with little tin the some of the antimony crystalizes seperate from the lead when the alloy begins to solidify. This seperation of lead from the antimony, even in small amounts, causes leading. The addition of tin increases the castbility and maintains the antimony in suspension during the cooling period. It is explained, though not very clear to many, in Dennis marshals article The Metallurgy of Molten Lead Alloys in Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook.

It is probably exacerbated by Centaur 1's WQing the bullets. That is not needed nor desired for such low pressure PB cast bullet loads.

Larry Gibson

Larry and Mods- this post (not the whole thread) and anything else in this line needs to be stickied. A little more discussion and information would help. Excellent information and put in understandable terms- thanks Larry!

[Larry Gibson]

Gear

I'm sure you know I am a proponant of the use of dacron - as a filler. In this case he is talking about using it as a "wad'. While I don't consider their being a "ringing" danger with dacron as a wad there is another problem.

With rounds that are single fed there is no problem. However with loads that are fed from the magazine the recoil can cause the wad to shift forward and the powder can migrate around and into the dacron. Serious hang fires and squib loads can result. I know this for a fact as it happened to me on a regular basis years ago. That is the reason I went from a dacron wad to a filler. If the filler is not necessary then I do not use it. With such loads using Bullseye I have not seen any benifit in ignition to a dacron wad. With some other powders the wad does give somewhat better ignition depending on the powder/load/psi. Not having to use a wad with Bullseye is also why I am a main proponant of it's use with such loads.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

I never read where Centaur wad planning on using Dacron as a wad, if this is a side conversation, I missed it. Again, my suggestion on using it, per my post #7, was NOT to aid powder positioning, or combustion, or to make the case smaller. That's what we normally use it for, but it ALSO can act as a gas seal in light loads with unchecked boolits and help prevent leading.

From post #7: " If that doesn't cure it, add a one-grain tuft of Dacron fluffed in the case to fill the space between the boolit base and powder, DON'T pack it down tight against the powder, this *can* cause chamber rings. Another member here recently had leading near the breech end with a .32 Win Spl. using Unique, Red Dot, and plain-based boolits. Just adding Dacron cured his problem, although he was using commercial boolits prelubed."

I went back and reread the OP, and I'm trying to figure out how range lead, with 50% soft jacketed cores and 50% cast (presumbably mostly commercial hardball) has so much antimony. I get that you're using similar stuff, and I'm sure it needs tin, but up to 5% more tin? What am I missing here? That alloy ought to be no more than 3% antimony with 1% or less tin, so aren't you in danger of overtinning the alloy? Seems to me that, if anything, there is too little antimony there. Antimonial "wash" is what I've come to expect from high-antimony alloys, but I'm not convinced that the "wash" is due to antimony, perhaps it's rogue pure lead sloughing off from between the antimony crystals as you say, or maybe just graphite from the gunpowder. That's another subject on which I'd really like to hear some expert input.

My experience with Dacron, though not nearly as extensive as yours, has been different with regard to powder migrating. You and I might be installing it in the case differently. Six grains of Bullseye under a 150-grain boolit in a .30-30 doesn't have enough recoil to move the cartridges in the magazine in my Marlin, much less shift the powder. I don't use Dacron as a "wad", per se, I carefully install it and fluff it inside the case with a 3/16" brass rod so it goes all the way down to the powder but has an even density all the way up to the boolit base. I've never ringed a chamber, and as the theories behind what can cause it make sense to me, I am VERY careful when using any sort of low-density filler so hopefully it won't happen. I did a similar test as some others had on this forum by cutting away part of a "dummy" case with spent primer and boolit crimped, the powder and Dacron filler installed and the cutaway covered with a piece of acetate taped in place. Carried it i my pocket at work for a week, no significant migration of powder resulted, so I loaded it in the magazine first and fired the other five rounds and checked it again, not even any nose deformation, and still no increase in powder migration. Not saying it can't happen, it most certainly can, but so far I've had good luck with it NOT using it as a wad, but fluffed evenly throughout the empty space in the case.

Gear

[JIMinPHX]

Larry, I'm familiar with that article and I get how the binary and ternary alloys form their structures, and how what forms first is determined by percentage, but I never thought that pure lead nodules would contribute to "leading". If you add a bunch of tin to suck up the Sb and form mostly Sb/Sn, is that intermetallic compound not functioning independent of the lead? I realize that in certain proportions, like around Lyman #2, the lead still freezes first followed by the Sb/Sn, but when you get over a certain amount, IIRC that would be proportions higher than the ternary eutectic point, the Sb/Sn again freezes first causing brittleness and lead exclusion.

Is the goal for a ternary alloy resistant to "leading" to use proportions only in which the lead freezes first (WW, WW+2%Sn, Hardball, Lyman#2, etc.) and the Sb isn't given a chance to form dentrites?

Gear

Gear, it sounds like you've dug into this matter a bit. Might you recommend some reading materials for a less-informed fella that wishes to improve his general knowledge on the subject?

[Centaur 1]

I never read where Centaur wad planning on using Dacron as a wad, if this is a side conversation, I missed it. Again, my suggestion on using it, per my post #7, was NOT to aid powder positioning, or combustion, or to make the case smaller. That's what we normally use it for, but it ALSO can act as a gas seal in light loads with unchecked boolits and help prevent leading.

From post #7: " If that doesn't cure it, add a one-grain tuft of Dacron fluffed in the case to fill the space between the boolit base and powder, DON'T pack it down tight against the powder, this *can* cause chamber rings. Another member here recently had leading near the breech end with a .32 Win Spl. using Unique, Red Dot, and plain-based boolits. Just adding Dacron cured his problem, although he was using commercial boolits prelubed."

Gear

I did decide to try the dacron. I loaded ten rounds today with 6 gr BE, 1 gr dacron fluffed and I pan lubed the boolits. I also loaded five more but with 7 gr of unique. I'm supposed to go shooting on Sunday and I'll post my results.

[Larry Gibson]

geargnasher

I never read where Centaur wad planning on using Dacron as a wad, if this is a side conversation, I missed it. Again, my suggestion on using it, per my post #7, was NOT to aid powder positioning, or combustion, or to make the case smaller. That's what we normally use it for, but it ALSO can act as a gas seal in light loads with unchecked boolits and help prevent leading.

centaur mentions he is going to use a "1 gr tuft of dacron" in post #24. With only 6 gr of Bullseye in the case my experience tells me 1 gr of dacron is not going to be a "filler". I was addressing centaur's post, not yours. Your further instructions in your post #7 were correct on how to properly use dacron. However, my point here is that with Bullseye neither a filler nor a wad are necessary.

I went back and reread the OP, and I'm trying to figure out how range lead, with 50% soft jacketed cores and 50% cast (presumbably mostly commercial hardball) has so much antimony. I get that you're using similar stuff, and I'm sure it needs tin, but up to 5% more tin? What am I missing here? That alloy ought to be no more than 3% antimony with 1% or less tin, so aren't you in danger of overtinning the alloy? Seems to me that, if anything, there is too little antimony there. Antimonial "wash" is what I've come to expect from high-antimony alloys, but I'm not convinced that the "wash" is due to antimony, perhaps it's rogue pure lead sloughing off from between the antimony crystals as you say, or maybe just graphite from the gunpowder. That's another subject on which I'd really like to hear some expert input.

The lead cores of a lot of jacketed hardball contain a lot of antimony. That plus the usual high amount in "hard cast" commercial bullets is where range lead from pistol ranges in particular has a high % of antimony. Then if a large # of .22LR are also fired on the range that also contributes to the antimony. If only WWs is used on the range as an alloy then your % are close to correct. My alloy came off 2 indoor military ranges where a lot of 9mm and 45 hardball was used. .22LR was also shot extensively out of m261 devices in M16A1s. The ranges were also used by local police and civilian small bore shooters. The conglomeration of all of those adds up to a lot more antimony than is needed. Wheter the leading "wash" from the alloy is lead or antimony I do not know as I've no way of analysing it. I do know that i went through a bit of experimenting and found that the adding of 5 % tin makes for very nice and easy to cast bullets. The BHN is 12 - 14 and they WQ to 20 -24 BHN. They also do not lead or "wash" anymore up through 1800 fps with the air cooled ones.

My experience with Dacron, though not nearly as extensive as yours, has been different with regard to powder migrating. You and I might be installing it in the case differently. Six grains of Bullseye under a 150-grain boolit in a .30-30 doesn't have enough recoil to move the cartridges in the magazine in my Marlin, much less shift the powder. I don't use Dacron as a "wad", per se, I carefully install it and fluff it inside the case with a 3/16" brass rod so it goes all the way down to the powder but has an even density all the way up to the boolit base. I've never ringed a chamber, and as the theories behind what can cause it make sense to me, I am VERY careful when using any sort of low-density filler so hopefully it won't happen. I did a similar test as some others had on this forum by cutting away part of a "dummy" case with spent primer and boolit crimped, the powder and Dacron filler installed and the cutaway covered with a piece of acetate taped in place. Carried it i my pocket at work for a week, no significant migration of powder resulted, so I loaded it in the magazine first and fired the other five rounds and checked it again, not even any nose deformation, and still no increase in powder migration. Not saying it can't happen, it most certainly can, but so far I've had good luck with it NOT using it as a wad, but fluffed evenly throughout the empty space in the case.

My posts were simply information to centaur and no way reflect on your loading abilitys. Now let me tell of my experience with wads moving and powders; the real offenders were with heavier loads. However, a long time ago my favorite plinker load before i started using the 90 gr SWCs was a PB 150 gr bullets I would get cast, unsized and unlubed from the old Liberty Cast Bullet Company. My favorite load was that bullet sized .310 and lubed with javelina over 5.5 gr Bullseye with probably a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron wad. It ran about 1100 fps out of my M94 carbine and was deadly on small game, particularly grouse. Noise was minimal and recoil seemed nil. The first occurence was when I was out shooting small ground squirrels. I had filled up the tube and as i shot would top off the tube. The 1st 2 or maybe 3 rounds were in the tube for probably 20 - 30 shots and about 2 hours walk about jostling. When I fired those last rounds I had 2 quick hang fires and a real long "click"......"bang" . Having already experience and cured the same situation with heavier recoiling loads I suspected what the problem was. I set out to find out. IA few days later I loaded the rifle and shot it pretty much the same not shooting the 1st 3 rounds in the tube, it was a good excuse to go shoot some more squirrels:-) I took those 3 rounds home and pulled the bullets. The wad had shifted forward on all of them and 2 of them had about half of the Bullseye in front of the wad next to the bullet.

Now, if you go out and load the tube with these loads and shoot all the rounds it the wad might not move and the powder won't then migrate. But you really won't know until you do get a "click, bang". My point being is that with just a tudge more powder the same accuracy and performance can be had without the dacron in wad or filler form.

Centaur has some test loads with the 1 gr of dacron and I expect they should do ok. They may be a little fast though. If he insists on the dacron then I suggest dropping back and testing 5 and 5.5 gr of Bullseye. Without the dacron 6 gr of Bullseye should work very well.

Larry Gibson

[jimb16]

Who's in for a discussion of solidus/liquidus curves?

[felix]

What do you have in mind? Keep in mind we use junk metals and there is no valid way of measurement of quality or quantity (volume/weight at temp) at home. ... felix

[geargnasher]

+1 Felix. Have you ever cast with a eutectic alloy? I haven't. Pretty close, but never right on, too many variables. Same goes with the scrap I cast with, I add tin, near-pure lead, or high-antimony alloy (type metal) to adjust hardess and castability on a "lot" basis to get about what I want, but in the end who knows what it really is.

Now a good discussion would be about what it is that we want, and are using as a goal when alloying.

Jimb16, I , too am interested in what you have in mind, how about starting a new thread in the "Alloys" forum?

Gear

[felix]

Like you, Gear, close but no cigar. The lino I have is not quite there, but for all practical purposes you can say it is/was Lino with a very quick freeze point. Corky (Sundog) and I made some by accident once, but it was like the Lino I had. Not quite there, in other words. Makes casting a breeze in 90 degree hot weather, but the freeze point of Lino is too low for 55 degree cold/cool weather 22 fabrication. ... felix

[Centaur 1]

Larry, I appreciate the help. I'm not wanting to use the dacron, I'm just willing to try it if it will stop the barrel from leading. I just want to plink with my deer rifle, which should make me a better shot with it. If I can create a load that is accurate enough i would use it for squirrels too. It would be even nicer if it shot to the same point of impact as my jacketed deer loads, for those mornings when no deer are moving so I can shoot a few squirrels before going home.

Eutectic alloy, years ago I used to cast my own diamond jigs out of cerrobend. I was deep sea fishing for bluefish using my freshwater trout gear and 6 pound test line. I hated eating bluefish so I didn't care if I lost them on the way in, but I hated losing the diamond jigs. So I machined a mold to make my own lures, but I didn't have a way to chrome plate them. I learned that bismuth, which is the main ingredient in cerrobend, doesn't oxidize in salt water as quickly as lead, and it would melt in a double boiler at about 158 degrees. I still have a couple pounds of bismuth out in the garage. Maybe someone here will have an idea what to use it for.

[geargnasher]

You can make boolits out of it, but they are very brittle, and bismuth is like $15/lb now, so I'd hang on to it or trade it to someone who wants it more than you do.

You DO NOT have to use Dacron at all, like Larry said, it was just a suggestion to try if you want to soley to help the leading issue. I had rather go without it because it adds about a minute per round reloading time. If everything is in good order as far as having an alloy in the right ballpark, a good lube, good boolit fit to the gun, and a set of reloading dies that expand the case neck the correct amoung to not swage the boolits undersized when seated, then there is no need for Dacron with Bullseye. If you push the envelope a bit with 150-grainers and Unique, the filler may help gas seal a bit. Go ahead and shoot what you have, it will be good experience to have and might give you some idea of the difference it can make.

Gear

[Reddog177]

I've used a pea sized ball of dacron in my 30/30 loads for years. I have an old Ted Williams in which I load a 180 gr. 311291GC over either 16.0 gr. 2400 or 23.0 gr. BLC-2. Accuracy is good at 75 yds with iron sights and have never had a hangfire. I usually single load. I've never found any trace of the dacron after firing. I suppose it's consumed at that time?
I have an iron coyote hanging at 100 yds which is great fun to shoot standing, offhand.
Dick

[Thumbcocker]

Three plinkers that have worked well for me in .30-30.

1.) Size "0" shot rolled in lla over 3 grns of red dot. Seated 1/2 way they will feed form the mag.

2.) Soup can with no gc over 6grns of red dot. Can use llo or regular lube.

3.) 311291 or 311041 no gas check over 6 grns of red dot.

No need for any fillers in any of them. Lots of shots from a pund of red dot. 700x works as well but I always have red dot laying around .

[Rocky Raab]

Of course, there's always the load I've called the Universal 30.

In any round of 30-30 or larger case capacity, the Speer or Hornady half-jacket 100-gr Plinker over 10.0 Unique.

[oscar.45]

I’m not casting my own booits yet but I like 8.5 gr. of Trail Boss with a 160-170 gr. booit for plinking. TB makes a great cupcake load for plinking.

[Centaur 1]

NOW HEAR THIS. JUST IN, RANGE REPORT!!!!!!!!!!!! NO LEAD!!!!! CLEAN BARREL!!!!! ALL BOOLITS THROUGH THE SAME HOLE AT 50 FEET!!!!!!!!!! In case you can't tell, I'm pretty excited about this. My first attempt at loading for my Marlin 336 failed so miserably that it had me all bummed out. I just wanted to plink with my favorite deer rifle, and maybe shoot a squirrel now and then. The help that you guys gave me was awesome. My first five shot group had four boolits all going through the same hole, I felt myself flinch on one of the shots, and that one missed the other four by 3/8". This means that I can now shoot my 30-30 for the same money as shooting a .22. I'm waiting for Randy to get more beeswax so that I can make something better than the Darr recipe that I'm using now. Now that I have a baseline that works, I should be able to slowly work up a faster load and still use plain base boolits. Thanks again for all the help, and as soon as I find my card reader I'll post a pic of my target. Now I'm going to have to work up a similar load for my 30-06.

[geargnasher]

CONGRATULATIONS!

The crack team of Castboolits Lead Annihilators solves another one.

Now it's your turn. What exactly did you do differently from the first try that seemed to help?

Gear

[PAT303]

This is what makes this Forum so good.:-) Pat

[Centaur 1]

CONGRATULATIONS!

The crack team of Castboolits Lead Annihilators solves another one.

Now it's your turn. What exactly did you do differently from the first try that seemed to help?

Gear

To start with I stopped using tumble lube. From what I've gathered it works fine with the shorter barrels on handguns, I believe that I was stretching it's capabilities by shooting it in a 20" barrel. Then I made a kake cutter from an old golf club handle. It seems to work good because the tube is tapered and I just kept cutting it shorter until I found the spot with the right diameter. I then ground a taper around the outside edge, to cut through the wax. I tried to push the boolits from the wax before it totally hardened like some people do, but the Barry Darr formula didn't want to stay on the boolit very well. My first attempt at cutting the wax around the boolit failed, I believe that the cutter was too sharp and too close to the boolit diameter. I was scraping a lot of lead from the boolits, which reduced the diameter. The fix that I came up with was to roll the sharp edge outward. The golf club steel is very hard, so I used a single flute coutersink pressed into the front edge at slow speed. Since the club shaft is so hard, it just rolled the leading edge outward. It was still sharp and it cut through the wax easily, but the cutting edge was now 1/64" larger than the boolit, and the shaft still had the proper size at a point about 1/16" up from the end. This angled lead-in seems to pack the wax tightly in the lube grooves, without shaving any lead.

I'm sure that my main problem was with the lube that I was using. It seems like not many people here like the barry darr recipe that I'm currently using. I realize that I'm new to this, and I don't know any better yet, but this lube has been working for me so far. I haven't put any real demands on the lube yet, as everything that I've loaded so far has been fairly mild loads. The success that I had today has me wanting to find an even better lube. My velocity with 6 grains of bullseye in the 30-30 is probably pretty slow, 1000 fps? I don't know how fast I can push this boolit without a gc, but since I have a good starting point that works it'll be fun working up a faster load. If I can get up to about 1600 fps, this boolit would make a good groundhog load out to maybe 125 yards or so. Thanks again guys, and feel free to suggest a better pan lube, I'm thinking about trying the beeswax/crisco/canola oil mix. I see all sorts of things used for lube, but I assume that not all of them are suitable for pan lubing. Is that a good one to try, or will one of the beeswax/mobil 1 grease recipes work better?

[geargnasher]

OK, next recommendation if you want to work up a little in your velocity:

1) Make some lube using just beeswax and lithium grease. You don't have to get crazy with the kind of grease, in fact most of the super-tacky, high-temp, high-pressure, non-wicking greases have things in them that you don't want. MAG-1 grease from Wal-Mart is often recommended for lube, I use Mystik JT6 grease that is light amber in color and doesn't string like hot cheese. Any sort of lithium complex grease that is light amber in color and not stringy is what you want. This stuff works great 50/50, I made a batch just for pan-lubing last year and it is super. There are a ton of formulas that work, but you can't beat this one for simplicity and function. You already have the Kake Kutter and technique figured out, so this part should be simple.

Switch to Unique, work up from seven grains until you get leading or your accuracy goes away, which ever comes first. From there you can add a gas check or back off a grain and work up again with the Dacron trick, see how far that will take you. 1600 is pushing it without a check.

Good luck,

Gear