DOD export restriction????

[JIMinPHX]

As many of you know, I occasionally sell a few little tool & die type items here on the board. I sometimes get inquires from people that are outside the US. Lately, I've been getting more & more of them.

I see notices about DOD export restrictions on some websites that sell molds, but I haven't been able to find the text of these regulations. I don't want to ship anything that is against the law, but I don't know where to find out what the law is. Can anybody point me to someplace where I can find out what export restrictions apply to things like sprue plates?

Thanks,
Jim

[spqrzilla]

It is not handled by the DOD. Exports regulations for arms are a State Department function.

http://www.pmddtc.state.gov/faqs/commodity_jurisdiction.html

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Would a sprue plate be considered a "arm"?

I'd call it a misc tool part . . .

[deltaenterprizes]

Automatic casting equipment is considered "war material" and the molds for it would be also, not hand casting equipment.

[The Double D]

Would a sprue plate be considered a "arm"?

I'd call it a misc tool part . . .

It's also called willful misrepresentation, an aggravating factor considered during the penalty mitigation process. Might be just enough to keep the $500 civil penalty from being mitigated to $100

[sav300]

Jim,here in Aus.Molds are legal with firearms registry and customs.Projectiles brass and bullets.Ammo are all illegal to import without permits.

[JeffinNZ]

I just sent my 225462 to Erik for HPing and had it returned without issue.

[seppos]

I would understand if we would be talking about ICBM:s or truckload of uranium, but few bolts and nuts.. go figure..

S

[The Double D]

I would understand if we would be talking about ICBM:s or truckload of uranium, but few bolts and nuts.. go figure..

S

...well if the nut or bolt is going to be used to repair Iran's or North Korea's ICBM or nuclear bomb don't you think there should be some control.

As far as I can tell by looking at the EAR, bullet molds don't require and export license to most countries. But there lies the problem. Before I retired it was my job to enforce these regulations. It was my job to review the law and determine if a commodity need a licenses or not. I was trained in this determination process. Now I have been retired for only 2 1/2 years and i can't figure it out for sure. How is Joe small part seller supposed to figure this out,

The Export regulations are important, but they are a mess,

JiminPHX, if I were you I would write a letter to your favorite congress person. Define specifically what you want export. Tell the Congress person you can not figure who to contact and ask for their help in getting an export determination for the item you want to export

[Heavy lead]

...well if the nut or bolt is going to be used to repair Iran's or North Korea's ICBM or nuclear bomb don't you think there should be some control.

As far as I can tell by looking at the EAR, bullet molds don't require and export license to most countries. But there lies the problem. Before I retired it was my job to enforce these regulations. It was my job to review the law and determine if a commodity need a licenses or not. I was trained in this determination process. Now I have been retired for only 2 1/2 years and i can't figure it out for sure. How is Joe small part seller supposed to figure this out,

The Export regulations are important, but they are a mess,

JiminPHX, if I were you I would write a letter to your favorite congress person. Define specifically what you want export. Tell the Congress person you can not figure who to contact and ask for their help in getting an export determination for the item you want to export

One of the many issues with our economy. Seems as though we cannot export anything anymore, even if someone wants to buy from us, we won't allow ourselves to sell it. Rome is toppling as we speak, and we are doing it to ourselves, as predicted by our founders.
The undemployment rate at or near 10% is seen as high, and hope are for it to go down, myself I thing it is the new baseline, we will do good to hold this number and have it not go up.
I could be wrong, actually I hope I am.

[JeffinNZ]

I tend to use very basis discriptions when shipping for two reasons:

1) there is only limited space on declarations.
2) no point creating a problem for yourself or the receiver in the way of unnecessary delays

When I ship moulds I delcare them as "casting moulds" which is 100% true and correct. No point putting "bullet mould" just so some minimum wage, paranoid postal worker can sideline your package for a week.

[seppos]

Well..
I dont talk about nuts and bolts that might be shipped to mister Il..
I am talking about some other countrys.
I would be propably offended if I would have spend 3 years of my life in Balcans, middle east and Afganistan supporting my fellow american service mates and be suspected to miss use the riflescope that I would like to purchase from a friend at USA..
Or bullet mould..

With these self made restrictions you guys are doing Osama a very big favour..
As he wanted to hurt you so much, and yes I know because I was watching CNN with an american major on 9/11, he managed to do that because you are giving him the tools for it.

It really never hurts to use the brain and common sence..;)

S

[Frank46]

I believe anything that can be used to reload ammunition such as dies, presses, bullets, and such fall under state department perview. When getting a new set of dies there is usually on the bill of sale something to that effect. Frank

[The Double D]

I believe anything that can be used to reload ammunition such as dies, presses, bullets, and such fall under state department perview. When getting a new set of dies there is usually on the bill of sale something to that effect. Frank

Yes and no.

Part is controlled by State Department, part controlled by Commerce Department.

Some not controlled at all.

The Commerce Department controlled stuff may require export license if it is going to certain locations, but you will have a difficult time figuring it out if you don't have specialized training in this regulations

Look at the International traffic in Arms regulations http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/offdocs/itar/index.html Part 21 and the Bureau of Export Administration Regulations http://www.gpo.gov/bis/ear/ear_data.html look at Part 774 Catagory 0

Good luck.

[ricksplace]

Well..
I dont talk about nuts and bolts that might be shipped to mister Il..
I am talking about some other countrys.
I would be propably offended if I would have spend 3 years of my life in Balcans, middle east and Afganistan supporting my fellow american service mates and be suspected to miss use the riflescope that I would like to purchase from a friend at USA..
Or bullet mould..

With these self made restrictions you guys are doing Osama a very big favour..
As he wanted to hurt you so much, and yes I know because I was watching CNN with an american major on 9/11, he managed to do that because you are giving him the tools for it.

It really never hurts to use the brain and common sence..;)

S

It's frustrating. The USA is by far the largest manufacturer of shooting materials. Gone are the days when I could pick up the phone and call Shaw Barrels and order a barrel and have it shipped to my door. Gone are the days I could go to a gunshow and buy sight parts, components, barrels, etc. Oh, I can buy 'em, but if I get caught with them in the USA, I go to jail. Friends of mine have been stopped in the PARKING LOT of the gunshow, and searched by police to see if they have any "contraband".

I understand why the restrictions are in place, but a little common sense (as mentioned) would seem to be in order. The restrictions have raised the prices on everything attached to shooting. When I can get primers, they run almost $60 a thousand. Powder is $45 a pound. Want a custom barrel for your new blaster? It's going to cost you about $350, and a sixth month wait is not unusual. That is for a standard calibre.

I don't see it changing any time soon and that's sad for the shooting fraternity.

Rick.

[longbow]

I was told some years ago (after 9/11) by a Canadian reloading supply distributor that it was illegal for me (Canadian) to buy primers, powder and ammunition in the States and punishable by jail time.

I figured I had better check so called the store I normally deal with in Washington state. They said "no problem" so I carried on visiting the store and buying reloading components since there is nothing available locally and I live close to the border. Never had a problem in the States or crossing the border.

I even cast up shotgun slugs for a couple of people in the States, drove them across the border, declared them on the American side at US Customs as shotgun slugs then mailed (your postal rates are way cheaper than ours). These were giveaways so no money changing hands. Again, no problem.

Then another local guy told me he had heard of Canadian vehicles being searched by Homeland Security during spot checks for people leaving the US. He knew someone who had some gun components confiscated.

This time about 2 years ago I decided to call US Customs. They told me no problem and the fellow proceeded to tell me how he travels across the border to a local shotgun club to trap shoot and how local guys travel to the States to shoot as well.

Then I called Homeland Security and they also told me no problem.

Then our local gun club president sent out ATF document ATF P 5300.18 (07-2002) attached which basically says that no non US citizen can be in possession of ammunition or reloading components in the States and US citizens cannot export reloading components (like mailing to friends/boad members outside the country) unless the have an FFL.

Even worse, just recently a local friend who has opened a small gun shop was told by the US Department of Defence that he could not import a variety of gun components including sights! It seems that if an item is not stock to that gun and can be considered an "enhancement" it is restricted.

So, the short story is that if you are a US citizen there are few problems buying, selling, transporting within your country but export of and reloading or firearm related item is a different matter. Check your regulations before taking a chance.

If you are a non US citizen then it is basically illegal to possess any reloading components or firearm "components" in the States.

What surprised me was that I tried to find out what was and wasn't legal and even various US Government organizations did not know each other's rules. No-one even mentioned ATF.

Longbow

[The Double D]

Long bow, that attachment you have posted tells the correct story and if you you refer to it and follow it you won't have any problems.

Mod's should consider making that some sort of sticky.

[longbow]

The Double D:

I am not understanding you. When I read that ATF document it tells me that I cannot be in possession of ammunition or reloading components in the States.

US businesses/citizens with FFL's can legally export reloading components but there are other restrictions on both sides of the border for business transaction.

My friend with the gun shop says he cannot import from the States without a whole pile of licensing on both sides of the border.

The big difference is that I used to legally be able to buy reloading stuff in the States and bring it home. Now as I read it I cannot.

If I am misunderstanding, please correct me because I want to be wrong here.

Longbow

[ricksplace]

Thanks for the ATF document Longbow. It pretty much describes what my gunstore owner told me. (He's a retired Lieutenant-Colonel and is NEVER wrong about this stuff). Some guys seem to be lucky and drive to the USA, buy components, and drive home without issue. I live in Thunder Bay, only about 45 miles from the Can-USA border. I'm the kind of guy that if I had one 22 short in my pocket I'd get busted. Just my karma I guess. I still run a traditional wet darkroom (colour and b&w) and all of my supplies for that hobby come from the USA. I order them to my friends at the border store and drive down and pick them up. I declare everything at the border, and pay what duties and taxes are required. Sure as heck wish I could do the same for my shooting hobby.

I remember clearly when the law first changed in the USA, a Canadian in a town in Quebec (that has one side of the street in Canada, and one side of the street in the USA) stopped on the USA side for gas during hunting season and was busted under the new legislation. Probably an overly-zealous officer that was just doing his/her job. I haven't read a similar newspaper article since.

Rick.

[kodiak1]

longbow you are just lucky the day it goes in the crapper for you it will be a shat storm.
Don't get caught with a scope either.

You legally can import into Canada certian things. You CANNOT BE IN POSSESSION of them in the USA.

If you order a scope from a person in the USA and they mail it to you they can and will be charged. The fella that I use to buy off of in Montana got 62 charges against him.
No one gave it a thought we bought scopes the USA changed their laws and we kept buying a couple of years later they checked the records of all the sights like ebay and then started to dispatch the gmen.

I know this is a fact as I seen with my own eyes the fella's paper work from the federal government. He was told if you cooperate we will go lightly on you.

Very sad state of affairs. Ken.

[blaser.306]

Very sad that the longest unrotected border begins to be seen as a threat to national security , I would like to think that shooters/ sportsman throughout north america are of the same mind set , that the shooting sports are for entertainment and not for national dominance . And It makes me very concerned about those who think differently!

[kodiak1]

blaser.306
I believe the shooters are people pretty much the same all over the world.
It is those gard dhamned Liberal polititions!!!!!!!!
Look how the ones in Canada put the screws to us and the ones in the states are doing the same down there.

Bloody Sad. Ken.

[The Double D]

The Double D:

I am not understanding you. When I read that ATF document it tells me that I cannot be in possession of ammunition or reloading components in the States.

US businesses/citizens with FFL's can legally export reloading components but there are other restrictions on both sides of the border for business transaction.

My friend with the gun shop says he cannot import from the States without a whole pile of licensing on both sides of the border.

The big difference is that I used to legally be able to buy reloading stuff in the States and bring it home. Now as I read it I cannot.

If I am misunderstanding, please correct me because I want to be wrong here.

Longbow

Read the attachment it spells out very clearly when you can and cannot posses those items and how you may export them.

Yes, there use to be a Canadian Exemption but even then the provision weren't followed.

Back in the day when you could buy things in the U.S. and take them home to Canada you were required to stop at U.S. Customs before you left the U.S. Did you ever do that? No, but it was the law.

The tightening up and restrictions added to the Canadian exemption were added at the request of Canada Governement via the OAS under the Western Hemisphere Arms smuggling agreements. I'll bet you didn't know that your government did that did you. If you hadn't watched OAS goings on you might not have noticed. It was my job at the time, and I noticed.

Of course the U.S. Government covered it all up under the guise of keeping illegal aliens form buying guns. Residency was all that was required previously, not legal residency. I mean how could you object to illegal aliens buying this stuff!!!!

You can buy and export. But the your gun shop friend is right, there is a whole bunch of licensing on both sides. The cost of the licensing to export Munitions controlled items from the U.S. is cost prohibitive for small shops.



Very sad that the longest unrotected border begins to be seen as a threat to national security , I would like to think that shooters/ sportsman throughout north america are of the same mind set , that the shooting sports are for entertainment and not for national dominance . And It makes me very concerned about those who think differently!

That border has always been a serious threat to both countries security.

We are not the same and we have a different set of cultural values. From the American revolution we have been different. Canada is a separate country because they were in majority Loyalist to the crown; they did not join their southern neighbors in revolution against the crown.

This is not a condemnation of the Canadian culture. It is simply to point out there is a difference.

It should stand as a warning to Americans that if we allow the Majority to become anti-gun we could be saddled with the restrictive gun laws Canadian have to live with.

Canada has a long history of cottage industries to circumvent U.S. law. Probably the most famous example of this is Prohibition. During the Prohibition period in the U.S., Canada had Prohibition also. But Canada in order to keep people in the alcohol industry employed, they allowed alcohol to be manufactured for export. The majority exported to the U.S.

Canada has long been known as a transhipment point for goods going to other countries. This is well known and little pressure has been put on Canada to stop. Why should we, it easier to control what you know about, than what you don't. Lots of great anecdotes about that.

One of my favorites is about an advance computer system that the Soviet Union smuggled out of the U.S. via Montreal in the 70's. The U.S. allowed the system to go out as we knew how the system worked and what flaws it had. If we know how it works, we know how it can used and how to counter it.

For a long time travel from the U.S. to Cuba has been restricted. Go to Canada and you can catch a direct flight to Havana. If you do that its still illegal in the U.S. and you will be fined if you get caught...if you get caught.

Canada has always welcomed the troubled people of the world with open arms. Canadians are a kind and caring people.

Some of the troubled people of the world hate the U.S.

A Moroccan who claimed amnesty because he was being persecuted in Morocco as an extremist, was granted temporary Amnesty and lived in Montreal. Then after living there a while he disappeared. He showed up in Port Angles Washington, coming from Vancouver Canada, headed to Los Angles with bomb making supplies. He created no problems in Canada.

On the other hand some years ago an Iranian dissident who supported the shah, and was given haven in the U.S.traveled to Canada unhindered and bombed the Iranian embassy. He lived peacefully in the U.S.

Each country can serve as a safe haven for militants to launch attacks in the other country with travel between the two countries unhindered.

http://www.fototime.com/B6CCD6DB32774E5/standard.jpg

Here's a picture of my wife with a her whitetail doe she took several years ago. See the fence behind her. That is the U.S.-Canada border. The left on that fence about 300 yards is a road in Canada coming down to that fence. In the 15 years I have lived up \here I have only ever seen the Border patrol near there twice and both times it was after that fence was cut and someone drove in from Canada. I have never seen the RCMP on the Canadian side.

Several years ago there was an a criminal illegal alien running around burglarizing farms on both sides of the border up in that area. The RCMP did not know how to get to the area. I had to drive to the Port of Entry and escort the RCMP on the U.S. side to find it. The RCMP officer told me he know how to get to the Farm up on the hill on the Canadian side, but he had no clue the road existed.

When they say unguarded. They aren't kidding.

I could go on and on about this...

Bottom line the powers to be in the U.S. and Canadian government could not care less about law abiding shooters and hunters being inconvenienced.

Hey you guys stop leaving the soap box laying around. I have no will power and must step on it. I apologize.

[kodiak1]

Double D
Great Post and lots of good points.
It still is a sad sad situation.

Ken.