Better Powder for Cast Bullets in .32wspcl

[peterso]

I have been using 9.5 grs of Unique and a 170gr .323 plain base bullet in my .32 SPCL Marlin Model 336. Good accuracy for a while say 10 shots or so then leading just ahead of the throat. I have fire lapped the bore and it helped quite a bit but was wondering if the flame temperature of the unique might be some of the problem. Would there be a better powder to use? I am wondering if what I am dealing with is flame cutting of the base. I use this rifle in a match that does not alllow gas checks.
Thanks,
Owen

[Guesser]

I use 15 grains of SR4759 under a 150 gr. cast plain base. Works well in my 16" Winchester '94.

[Larry Gibson]

What bullet lube?

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

One thing I bet will work with that particular powder and load combination (assuming you have the typical 1:16 twist, not sure about Marlin's twist) is to install about a one-grain tuft of Dacron on top of the powder, make sure it fluffs up to fill the extra volume and doesn't pack down hard against the powder. This is not for the usual reasons we use Dacron, but I've found that, for whatever reasons, when adding the Dacron on similar loads the barrel is left with a moist, grey wash of lube and you get a nice lube star and leading goes away. I'm assuming that the Dacron doesn't burn up completely and tends to pack against the boolit base creating a really good seal and lube sponge. This is a trick I discovered by accident loading PB .30-30 with pistol powders like Unique and Red Dot,and it improves accuracy greatly in many cases at lower velocities where "purge flyers" aren't as much of a factor. I recommend using a soft, conventional lube like White Label BAC, NRA lube, or Felix lube.

One other thing, I hate to sound like a hypocrite because I absolutely hate the stuff, but you might try Trail Boss with that BP twist rate. TB makes high pressure fast in the combustion cycle but lots of people rave about it for low-velocity cowboy action loads.

Gear

[peterso]

It is a blue lube used by Meister Bullets. The bullet is their 170 grain plain base 32/40 bullet sized to .323. Sorry I don't know the brand of the lube.

[peterso]

Geargnasher
I have plenty of the polyester batting would that work as well as the Dacron?

[geargnasher]

Dacron is the trade name of polyester fibers engineered by ICI and DuPont. The batting is what I use, 1/2" thick layers. Tear out tufts with your fingers and weigh them on your powder scale. In my mind it is important to keep the fibers long and fluffy, so cutting into the squares the right size for desired weight with scissors out of known-thickness material (the obvious thing to do for speed of production) is not quite as effective on maintaining fluff and powder/filler segregation in the case since so many short fibers are formed in the corners.

Exact weight isn't that important, either, just get it within a two-tenth-grain window of what looks right when fluffed up in the case. I use an even grain in .30-30 when I load with the old standby of ten grains of Unique. Use a square-tipped object like a 1/4" dowel rod to punch the tuft through the case neck, and don't tamp it. The Dacron should spread out from the base of the neck to the powder.

Just try it and see. You shouldn't have any pressure trouble with 9.5 grains of Unique, but you might want to back off a grain and work up to stay on the safe side, just load a couple rounds of the ligher powder charges with filler to make sure you don't get any pressure surprises.

Gear

[geargnasher]

It is a blue lube used by Meister Bullets. The bullet is their 170 grain plain base 32/40 bullet sized to .323. Sorry I don't know the brand of the lube.

Two problems with commercial cast bullets: One, they are almost universally WAY too hard and brittle for best results. Common misinformation is that harder boolits don't lead as badly when ususally the opposite is true. Sometimes we want harder boolits, but not ususally, and certainly not for what you're doing. Hard commercial bullets ship and handle better without damage, that's why they use hard alloy, not because they know or care what your results will be. Boolits that are too hard for the pressures won't seal well to the bore right away, and that makes gas leaks and gas-cutting causes leading. The other downfall of commercially cast boolits (with a few exceptions) is the lube. It is, like the alloy, way to hard, and is junk for a number of other reasons. It usually is a pretty color, but it's good qualities stop there. You need to try some of the lubes I mentioned. There are others commercial lubes that will work, but not many come installed on ready-made boolits.

Gear

[missionary5155]

Good morning & Welcome Peterso..
Could well be the too hard boolit again...
Comercial castors I recon figure everyone wants top velocity so cover their hide with the "Hard Cast" solution. I cannot blame them... but generic solutions seldom are real solutions.
So I say as soon as you can start casting your own... there must be some members close to you to give ya a hand along.

[peterso]

You may well be correct about the hardness of the alloy and or the lube. I have cast bullets for other rifles and my BPCR guns but was trying to find a store bought bullet for this sport. I shoot a gong match each month, 40 shots at a 500yd ram hung at 200 yds in 4 strings of 10 shots. They do not allow the use of GC. I also have not be able to find a plain base 170 gr or similar weight bullet mold that will throw bullets large enough for this rifle, the bore is .3215. I had looked at the RCBS 2 cavity 170 FN with the idea of have the mold machined to remove the gas check indention but that was another $75 for the machine work. The other problem I found was that the molds are inconsistant in that some will drop .323 bullets and some much smaller. I have one friend that has one that the front cavity drops .320 and the back .323. I know they can be beagled but all that is a last resort. If anyone knows of a better mold I am open to suggestions. I have contacted RCBS about this and other molds lack of consistency only to be told that they fall withing acceptable limits. We might ask to who is this acceptable? I am going to the range today to try some red dot and some with unique and the dacron filler as well as a few with the filler and red dot.
Thanks,
Owen

[geargnasher]

No more than you are needing to shoot, if you have access to a pb mould that casts .323" with WW metal out of at least one cavity, just cast out of that one cavity. That will tend to make more consistent boolits for competition anyway.

If you use a little exta tin in your ww alloy and cast with a hot mould (400* or so) you should get sharp enough fillout on the base band of a gc mould to shoot it without the check and still get decent accuracy, expecially with Dacron.

If it is a steel mould, Erik Ohlen at Hollowpointmold.com can machine out gas check shanks and even-up driving bands for a fair price. He knows exactly how big to make them to yield the correct dimensions you specify with the alloy you specify.

Let us know if the filler helped your leading. If it did, you might fix it with softer boolits and better lube and skip the filler because it probably isn't needed with those powders if everything else is right. Shoot it both ways at long range and you'll know whether to use the filler or not with better boolits/lube.

Gear

[geargnasher]

I thought about this some more. In your original post you didn't specify that you were trying to knock over 500 meter rams at 200 yards with your gun. That changes my recommendations quite a bit, and lets go back to your question about powders.

Also lets debunk the idea that powder "flame-cuts" boolit bases, because it absolutely does not ever do so. If the boolit is too small or too hard to fit the bore, gas pressure can blast by the boolit leaving erosion channels and depositing lead dust ahead of the boolit, which in turn gets ironed on the bore like gold leaf as the boolit passes it. That isn't temperature melting the lead, it is gas pressure, like a steel-cutting water jet.

Back to powders. If you're trying to launch a heavy-for-caliber PB boolit 200 yards with accuracy you need to accomplish two things: Soft "launch" and gradual acceleration. You do this with slower powders that build pressure more slowly and peak when the boolit is somewhere in the middle of the barrel, then is dropping off so muzzle pressure is reduced and the delicate PB boolit isn't upset by the gas blast as much upon exit. One of the reasons pistol powders work so well with cast boolits is that they have very little muzzle pressure, and the pressure they build sharply at launch seals the case and swages the boolit right at the start (assuming the boolit is soft enough to conform well and obturate the bore) so you get a good seal all the way down the pipe.

The way I understand it, with slower twists you need a little faster powder generally, but heavy boolits call for slower powder. Higher velocity for energy at long range calls for slower powder. Plain base calls for soft launch but low muzzle pressure, so that depends on twist and barrel length to match powder. So you want the muzzle pressure of Bullseye and the launch of 4350, but 4350 won't burn at the low peak average pressure you need with a pb boolit, and Bullseye of course builds all it's pressure right away and won't give you the velocity you need. Unique is an excellent choice out to 100 yards, but you're losing a lot by the time you get there. You might try IMR 3031 or Winchester 748, go about two grains under starting loads for jacketed bullets of the same weight and work up until you get leading. Use 1/2 grain of Dacron as an artificial gas check, and use a lot of crimp. Your harder, commercial boolits might actually work this way, but the lube is marginal. Try it and see.

One more thing I forgot to tell you with regard to your leading, seat and crimp a boolit as you would normally, then pull it with an inertial puller and measure the driving bands. Still .323"? if they are smaller you will need to get or make a larger neck expander ball, the die set you have may be made to jacketed bullet dimensions and that leaves the neck too small for oversized cast boolits. The boolits get squeezed down, then fired through the bore they are now too small for, and you get gas-cutting for the amount of time it takes for the boolit to swell and seal the bore. Sometimes they never seal and you'll find lead all the way down in the crevice where the land meets the groove on the trailing side of the rifling.

Gear

[sundog]

Another thing to think about is that the 32 Spl is a lot like the 32-40 other than the first is bottle neck and the latter is not. Still and all, somewhat close. The single shot boys used to, and still do, shoot a lot of 32-40, all plain base, and generally in the 200 gr range. Powders of choice are such as H108/AA9/WC820, 4759, and a few others. Just something to mull over.

[peterso]

I need to provide more information, I am not trying to knock over the rams, only hit them. We use AR500 Steel, they ring pretty good when hit, thus the name gong match. The match has become one of the most popular at our club. We regularly have 25-30 shooters. Folks can use their cartrdge smokepole or any rifle .32 or larger, no gas checks. I normally shoot my 1885 in 45/70 or my 40/65 sharps. I saw this Marlin 336, a nice 1961 version at a gun shop for a great price since the owner thought .32 Spcl was a dead cartridge. I thought it would make a great rifle for the kids and ladies to shoot to get them interested in the match. I have a group of kids that shoot with me both as part of our 4H Shooting Sports Club and other activities. This means at least 300 or more bullets a month on top of everything else. If I don't solve the leading problem it means that I have to take down the rifle and scrub the lead out with copper pad wrapped around a cleaning brush between relays, it tends to add up after a while. I am not complaining, I am very thankfull to have the opportunity to bring new shooters into our sport and to be able to teach them firearms safety, just trying to give perspective. We shoot somthing somewhere evey weekend of the month and Air Rifle, BB and Air Pistol on Tuesday and Thursday evenings. That is why I was trying to avoid casting another bullet.
That being said it is begining to look like it might be unavoidable. We have work parties for other things so I guess we need one for casting bullets as well. It is to bad that Lee doesn't offer one of their 6 cavity molds for the .32 Special. I picked up another 200 lbs of wheel weights today for a good price. The bought bullets I have been working with are comming in at 15BRH while my wheel weight bullets usually come in at 12BRN using my Lee Hardness Testor. I will contact the gentelman recommend to see what it would cost to have the gas check ring taken out of a Lyman Mold and have it cut to make sure it casts a .323 bullet.
On the way to our shooting club this afternoon the serpentine belt on my pickup died so no testing today, I'll try again tomorrow. Thanks very much for all of your help and suggestions. I gues that I'm going to start brewing my own bullet lube again this winter as well.
Geargnasher I love your picture, I have two ferrets that allow my wife and I to share their house. I need to take their picture. It has been know to happen that the first thing out of my shooting bag at the range is a wsker covered nose! The alpha ferret has been known to steal my minie balls back when I used beef tallow in the lube and hide them in one of his stashes for a rainy day.
Thanks,
Owen

[geargnasher]

Sadly, we had to bury that little fella last year at the young age of three, he was a "feeder" rat and, typically for the "trash" breeds, got cancer about halfway through his life. We have three others, a fancy hooded one who's getting old and feeble and a couple of new ones including a Dumbo. I understand what you mean by sharing their house with them! Rats and ferrets are very much alike in intelligence and personality, they sure do enjoy having us for pets and entertainment. The rats have to share with three cats now, too. Oh, the paradox!

Gear

[peterso]

:lovebooli
Problem solved, the polyester filler solved the problem. I used one inch squares of fluffed up 1/4" thick batting with both Unique and Red Dot (9 Gr). The accuracy was improved and no leading. Both loads were within 15fps of one another but the Red Dot load struck 13" higher than the Unique load at 200 yards. I guess the difference comes from the faster burning powder providing quicker recoil. Thanks for everyones help and suggestions!
Owen

[Wayne Smith]

Owen, glad you found your solution. I will recommend that you look at the group buy sites, especially if you want to get the kids casting as well as shooting. You are probably not the only one who wants a .32 fat boolit, and with as few as 5-10 buyers Bruce is likely to go for a buy at a reasonable price. This is especially true if it fills a blank place in his mold list!

[peterso]

Thanks Wayne that sounds like a good idea!