Lino in the 429241- need help

[David2011]

OK, guys, I've cast tens of thousands of boolits but my latest attempt is giving me fits. I decided to use some of my fleabay purchased linotype to make some .44 mag boolits for my new to me Contender. I decided to try out the lino.

My normal alloy is wheelweight plus a little monotype just to make it flow well and look really nice. It casts well at about 650 degrees when I'm making .40 cal truncated cone boolits. The shape is very simple and they cast easily. The vast majority of my casting is .40 and .45 pistol boolits, either SWC or TC with a few RN .45s thrown in. I've also cast a bunch of .38/357 and 9mm. The Lyman 429421 seems much harder to use.

I had nothing but wrinkles and sticking when I started casting with the 4 cavity 429421 mold and lino. I finally got good looking boolits when I got the temperature above 775 degrees. I got plenty of very nice boolits once everything got really hot. They're very shiny, like you get at minimum temperature for a given alloy. I do use a Lyman thermometer so pretty sure about the temps. The mold has the traditional Keith style square lube grooves which I'm sure contribute to boolit sticking but i had to beat the hinge with my hammer handle (NO HEAD ATTACHED!) or tap the mold handles repeatedly to get the boolits to drop every time.

The mold was cleaned carefully before I started casting. I had cast some the night before with the aforementioned WW-mono alloy but thought it wouldn't hurt to clean the mold since I was going with an alloy with which I was unfamiliar. I preheat on a hot plate. The lino was just awful at my normal temp. Should linotype take that much heat to cast properly? Does the Keith style shape cause difficult extraction? I thought about adding a pound of 85% lead/5% SB/10%Sn to improve the flow but decided to ask the experts first.

Maybe I'm trying to make the boolits too hard, too, but the barrel was really clean after shooting lino so it's tempting to keep them fairly hard. Magnum loads with 2400 left klingons, a few finishing shots with 5 grains of 231 left the barrel CLEAN.

David

David

[theperfessor]

If it's not certifiably lino it may well be zinc contaminated. Zinc may make the alloy hard like lino but this material would require the high temps you indicated.

How sure are you of the stuff you got from E-bay?

[Cowboy T]

Since you've clearly done a lot of casting, my apologies if these seem like "n00b" checks.

Sounds like maybe the mould isn't getting quite hot enough? Also, did you smoke the mould, by any chance? I know this is essential on my aluminum and brass moulds.

[AZ-Stew]

True lino should cast well at relatively low temps, say 700 - 725F. What you describe sounds like the mould's not hot enough. Try casting faster. If you let the mould cool between pours, you'll never get good boolits. Run 10 - 15 pours without inspecting what you've cast. Just pour, let the sprue cool, cut the sprue, empty the mould and then pour again, quickly. After 10-15 throws it should be up to temp.

On the other hand, I have a Lee 2-banger for 40 S&W that I cleaned well, then cast about 100 boolits with, and I couldn't get rid of the wrinkles. I quit casting, allowing the mould to sit for a couple of days. When I started using it again it came up to temp within a few throws and continued to cast good boolits until I had 200 or so and decided to quit. Not a bad one in the lot. Some moulds are like that.

BTW, the 429421 is an excellent mould. You shouldn't be having troubles with it.

Regards,

Stew

[David2011]

You guys always have good suggestions. Thanks for responding.

Perfessor, I could only take the seller's word, it was in about 3 lb ingot form so I can't be certain it wasn't contaminated with zinc. It seemed to melt easily enough, though. I didn't check the temperature at which it melted but will next time I melt an ingot.

Cowboy and Stew, the mold was very hot. It was taking the melt on top of the sprue 10-12 seconds to start to solidify. I was having to wait about 15 seconds before cutting the sprue to avoid tearing out. Everything was quite hot. With my standard alloy I cut the sprue almost instantly, by gloved hand, using Bullplate Lube. I prefer to not smoke molds but aknowledge that it can be helpful.

I didn't have these issues with my other alloy, other than it taking a while to get the mold up to operating temp. Compared to most of what I cast, the 429421 is longer and more slender. Most of my handgun boolits are shorter and fatter, like the caster, and stay under 1000 fps.

I'll try some with the near-Lyman #2 that I have. The trustworthy source of that metal made it up as Lyman #2 with double tin, hence the 85-5-10 mix I mentioned earlier. Seems like a waste of tin to me but it shoud flow well. I usually cut it with equal parts straight lead. For the .44 Mag boolits I'll leave it with 5% Sb and 10% Sn and let you know what happened.

David

[runfiverun]

the 429 mold does stick.
look for burrs on the edges of the mold halves.
if you have the boolits sticking in the same half of the mold and the same hole repeatedly i'd suspect a burr.
and using the kroil helps immensely. i had to treat and use mine about 5 times before i really started to see the benefits.
the 429 mold also has a happy temp where it drops easier, mine is when the boolits have a galvanized appearance and especially good detail [with a 1/3 alloy mix]
i start my casting with a warmed mold at 725 and once a rythmn is established i turn down the heat to about 710-715. and keep up the rythmn.

sometimes giving the corner nearest to you a push with a stick when opening will help also.
and you can also do the pour and polish thing with valve grinding compound, found in the leementing thread.
but the kroil treatment is what finally made mine bearable.

[runfiverun]

that overtinned alloy is gonna cause you problems.
the tin pulls off the antimony and tries to bond to the lead but the alloy cools before it can do so. so you have spots of tin surrounded with soft spots of un alloyed lead.

[454PB]

Linotype shrinks less as it cools than most alloys because of the high antimony content. That means the boolits are more resistant to leaving the mould.

[GLL]

Here are linotype bullets from a very old unvented 429421 ( on left). They drop nicely ! I had a very new version of the 429421 which had a slightly different profile and bullets stuck quite frequently. That mould was sold off ! As LYMAN modified the design the moulds behaved quite differently !

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/4D3FAB7846E87C3/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/EF85E0A54F82550/standard.jpg

[Mal Paso]

I have 2 one year old 429421 Lyman molds that would really stick when using the harder alloys. There were no visible burrs They also cast under size using WW type Alloy. I read here about lapping the molds but from the descriptions it sounded like cutting with a dull chainsaw, slow and painful. I ordered some 325 mesh Diamond paste from Arrowhead Lapidary Supply and was able to do the job in an afternoon. They are still a little under size and I may repeat the process with a slightly larger Master Boolit but I tell you what. The Boolits almost jump out of the mold with barely a tap.

[nicholst55]

I'm watching this thread with interest, as I just 'won' a 4-cavity 429421 on an auction. It will be interesting to see how this mold casts. I have no idea how old it is; it does have the square lube grooves, but I understand that Lyman has come and gone from that design a couple of times.

Wow, GLL! It's hard to believe that those two boolits are supposedly the same design!

[Bass Ackward]

Any design that has sharper angles is going to require more things to be correct. Any design with deeper angles is also at risk. Why Lyman went to a rounded grease groove on Elmer's design.

If the mold blocks stick to the alignment pin(s) for what ever reason or if the handles get sloppy and try to open the blocks at an angle, you can get problems. Especially as you get tired.

If you get lead on the block faces, the angles change and not in a positive way, etc.

You need to look closely to identify these. The more antimony you use, the closer you need to look. Remember, that design was a lead / tin design. And block temperature that requires fill out can affect the time you need to wait also. That is what it is unless you improve venting.

Some like to call it mold personality, but I find it is mostly operator personality failing to compensate.

[Bret4207]

If your mould is truly "hot" then the wrinkles are coming from something else than a cold mould, clean it again. Lapping will probably help too.

[GLL]

nicholst55:

Sorry I did not indicate it but the bullet on the right is a 429360 not a 429421 ! It just happened to be in the same old photo !

Jerry

[theperfessor]

I'd like to know the melting point/latent heat temperature of that alloy. I have a 429421 as well as several similar SWC designs in .41, .44, and .45 in four or more cavity iron molds. None require the alloy to be more than 100-150*F hotter than the melting point to cast properly and drop easily. I recently cast WWs in a five cavity iron mold. The melting temp was 583*F and the pot temperature was 700*F. A thermocouple I had screwed into the mold was 400*F before filling and went to about 412*F in about 8-10s which is when the sprue froze and was cut. The slugs were dropped and the mold held open until it dropped back to 400*F and the cycle was repeated, etc. No wrinkles and I could see the toolmarks from boring on the slugs.

Using same molds lead roof sheathing melted at 623*F and required a pot temp of 775*F and a mold temp of 425-450*F to cast properly.

[David2011]

Jerry, my mold is making boolits that look pretty much exactly like yours. The mold has a 3 digit code of 473. Seems like I read recently that's the month and year of manufacture.

Bret, the problem only exists with one alloy. The mold works normally with use for my IPSC boolits. Once it was good and hot the boolits were perfect. Could be this alloy just has to be hotter than I'm used to and it seems odd to me.

454PB has a great point. The high antimony content reduces shrinking and will cause the boolit to be tight in the mold. I guess it's possible that if the batch I have has enough antimony it could raise the melting point as well.

The boolits made of 20 lb WW plus 1/2 lb monotype measured (micrometer) .4290 to .4295 across the base. The lino boolits measured .431 to .432 so the antimony may be a factor.

The very unscientific test of pushing 2 boolit noses into each other in a vise show the supposed lino alloy to be much harder than the other alloy. One of these days, soon, I'll get a hardness tester.

Next time I melt some of this I'll measure the melting point. I cleaned the pot pretty thoroughly after the last batch. This has certainly made me think more than I ever have to cast a new boolit.

David

[shootinxd]

I tried casting with lino,but after much frustration I just went back to WW.

[leadman]

I have a 4 cavity Lyman 429421 with the round lube grooves. It does need to have hot (750') alloy and then I set it on a metal plate until the sprue cools. If I don't set it on the plate the bullets stick. I think the plate draws off the heat so the bullets shrink down enough to come out of the mold.

[sagamore-one]

I had access to, and melted several tons of lino from the printshop where I worked. I tried to keep the temp of the alloy between 850 and 875 and cycle the moulds ( normally 2 six cavity H&G's) as quickly as possible, near frost point. On the Lyman Mag 20 I had to tweek the controlls to keep consistant temp, on the RCBS pro melt I had to turn up the thermostat.
Try cranking up the temp of the melt and cycle quickly.
Fresh clean lino is fantastic.

[David2011]

Perfessor, the melting point of my alloy was about 470 degrees, pretty consistent with the melting point sticky and the range on my Lyman therometer.

These last 2 posts from Leadman and Sagamore seem pretty consistent with my very limited experience with this alloy.

I cast a few more 429421s this afternoon. I got the mold good and hot on the hot plate (and of the best additions ever to my shop) and had good boolits on the 2nd or 3rd try, even with Kroil added to the mold as suggested. I really like Leadman's idea of drawing the heat away with a heavy steel plate. I have some 1/2" thick discs to make into targets, guess one will find its way to the reloading table.

Just as a QC test I cast some .45ACP ball profile boolits similar to the Lyman 452374 but an older mold. That is about the easiest mold to cast I've ever used. I also preheated it and the first boolits out of the mold were useable. Since I didn't see the need for lino ball boolits I just tossed them back in the pot.

I think the bottom line is to run hotter for this alloy and enjoy it. The input has been the typical high quality of the forum and greatly appreciated!

David

[theperfessor]

Dave -

Glad you got your problems solved. That's a good bullet design, nice to be able to get good bullets from your material out of it. I've got a well broken in Lyman 429421 4 cavity with round GGs and it casts great, but I've never tried straight lino, usually use WWs or WWs and a little 50/50 solder.

Those things out of lino ought to act like a punch press on anything they hit!

[David2011]

Dave -

Those things out of lino ought to act like a punch press on anything they hit!


Yeah, the lino would probably be excessive as Mr. Keith intended the .44 Mag to be used. Running the boolits through a 14" Contender puts a whole different load on the projectile with velocities coming into the Ruger .44 Carbine range so I thought a harder alloy might be in order. I've cast for years for 650 to 1000 fps loads. Pushing it to 1600 fps is new to me.

The next learning experience will be when I finish my cast boolit .375 H&H. In the interest of keeping it fun, I intend to shoot it in the 1700-1900 fps range with boolits from an RCBS 250 grain gas check mold. In the spirit of the original intent of the .375 H&H I think it will be an iron sights rifle.

David

[geargnasher]

that overtinned alloy is gonna cause you problems.
the tin pulls off the antimony and tries to bond to the lead but the alloy cools before it can do so. so you have spots of tin surrounded with soft spots of un alloyed lead.

Good catch. No guarantee that's what his alloy is, but if it is there will be problems. The way I understande it, he would actually have Pb with a regular Sb/Sn structure throughout, with spots of straight Sn.

Gear

[NHlever]

One thing I've found that helps stubborn molds in general is to take some 0000 steel wool, and wrap it around a small square stick. Insert that into one mold half, and gently close the mold while it is turning. It seems that takes off many of the tiny burrs that one can't really even see, and aids in boolit release using common practices.

[casterofboolits]

:confused: I just checked the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook third edition and all boolits for the 44 Mag are listed as being Linotype, not #2! Also 38 Spec and 357!

Just seemed strange to me.:shock:

[runfiverun]

pressure based on the first two, and laziness on the .38.
they were doing pressure testing for powder development.

[David2011]

Good catch. No guarantee that's what his alloy is, but if it is there will be problems. The way I understande it, he would actually have Pb with a regular Sb/Sn structure throughout, with spots of straight Sn.

Gear

I was just contemplating in writing using some of the 85/10/5 in the linotype to soften and improve flow. Never actually made any boolits with it straight or otherwise so I don't think that's part of the problem. On second thought, the lino already has plenty of tin so maybe mixing in some straight lead would be more appropriate.

David