trail boss load beware

[canuck4570]

I followed the trail boss direction on the IMR site
it says load powder in the case to the base of the the bullet to be used this is a safe load
then take 70% of this load this will be your starting load
well in my 3006 19 gr was the max so I went dow to 15 and started no problem until I reach 17gr and pressure ,,, hard extraction and opening of the bolt....
so when they say to the bottom of the bullet and this is a safe load I would be careful....

[303Guy]

You don't mention the boolit weights involved. Could you fill us in?

[canuck4570]

You don't mention the boolit weights involved. Could you fill us in?
its the RCBS 180 gr
did not mentioned it because it doe not mentioned any weight in their instruction
just put powder to the base of bullet use
and this was confirmed in a phone call to them
the gentlemen said like the instruction (the bullet used)
in the data on trail boss they give 19 gr for a 150 gr nosler jacketed bullet which offer much more resistance....
read paragraphe 1 in the instruction and tell me what you think....
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

[303Guy]

Well, from what I've experienced with fast powders and heavy boolits is that they seemed to be spiky as boolit weight goes up. Your experience makes me wonder whether these guys at IMR have tested all possibilities. There is another possibility and that is that max pressure measurement on it's own does not tell us the actual stress the components are being subjected to. For example, in engineering, a suddenly applied load will apply a momentary stress double that of the same load applied gradually. That plus the way fast powders behave under heavy boolits in bottleneck cases makes me not surprized of your findings. What does surprize me is that the folks at IMR are unaware of the same! Perhaps they would like to hear from you.

[Bret4207]

My impression was that Trailboss was intended for straight cases or those with a long taper like the 38-55. Maybe the shoulder altered the burn rate?

[canuck4570]

303 Guy tomorrow will give them a call and see what they have to say about it
will give up date

[Bosshaug]

I am using 15.0gr of Trail Boss in my 30-06, under a 160gr cast lead RN with a gas check. I am shooting these in an 03-A3 with no pressure signs. I have not gone past 15gr, as 15gr is a very accurate load for this rifle, and I stopped there. That being said, I have shot hundreds of these rounds through this rifle with no problems. I also got 19gr as a max load with the 160gr bullet (and 13.3gr starting load), and I suspect the 180gr is a longer bullet. Could be that 17gr is the max for you, not 19gr. Just guessing, as I dont have that 180gr bullet to look at, heh

[canuck4570]

well according to their instruction its for any caliber mmmmm make you think

[canuck4570]

I am using 15.0gr of Trail Boss in my 30-06, under a 160gr cast lead RN with a gas check. I am shooting these in an 03-A3 with no pressure signs. I have not gone past 15gr, as 15gr is a very accurate load for this rifle, and I stopped there. That being said, I have shot hundreds of these rounds through this rifle with no problems. I also got 19gr as a max load with the 160gr bullet (and 13.3gr starting load), and I suspect the 180gr is a longer bullet. Could be that 17gr is the max for you, not 19gr. Just guessing, as I dont have that 180gr bullet to look at, heh
https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/images/rcbs/item/FullA/82020.jpg

[flounderman]

I'm not familiar with trail boss, but unless it is fluffy, I would like to know how 19 grains fills an 06 case to the base of the bullet, when a case full is in the neighborhood of 60 grains of most powders.

[canuck4570]

I'm not familiar with trail boss, but unless it is fluffy, I would like to know how 19 grains fills an 06 case to the base of the bullet, when a case full is in the neighborhood of 60 grains of most powders.
yes very fluffy
it was design in a way that you could not make double charge
specially for cowboy shooting
it look like mini donuts.....
in a regular 1 pound canister only 9 once fits...
hope this help
http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gunblast.com/images/IMR-TrailBoss/MVC-002F.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gunblast.com/IMR_TrailBoss.htm&usg=__rcZSJTh-1rJu14iI2l0qvQ7D3jk=&h=480&w=640&sz=79&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=TWPW6QUSyJdXDM:&tbnh=129&tbnw=166&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtrail%2Bboss%2Bpowder%26um%3D1%26hl%3 Den%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Den%26biw%3D 1920%26bih%3D960%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=121&vpy=75&dur=1445&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=143&ty=91&ei=NWV0TJXDNoP48Aby2IiJBg&oei=NWV0TJXDNoP48Aby2IiJBg&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=30&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

[canuck4570]

http://www.gunblast.com/images/IMR-TrailBoss/MVC-002F.jpg
here is a picture compared to other powder
trail boss on the left

[94Doug]

I agree with the Straight wall information forwarded earlier. That was the information I received from them as well. I believe that regular cases are a fairly new venture.

Doug

[Bosshaug]

canuck4570,
I'm using the Lee C309-160-R bullet. The picture of it from the Lee site is not as nice as yours, but it looks to me that the base of both bullets would be at about the same place in the case, which would rule out the max charge weight difference. I am sizing my bullets at .309 if that helps.

[canuck4570]

I agree with the Straight wall information forwarded earlier. That was the information I received from them as well. I believe that regular cases are a fairly new venture.

Doug
same here got the same in the early stage of introduction of the trail boss (made for straight cases)
and has you say it must be a new venture in the bottle neck type cases.... so I guess we will have to be careful....

[cbrick]

Well, there is a change, I talked with the folks that make TB including one of the engineers involved at the SHOT Show a few years ago and was told under no uncertain terms that TB and it's data were for cast bullets only. The first paragraph in your link says CB or jacketed . . . hhmmm

Like Bret I also thought it was for straight walled cases. I tried it in the Hornet and couldn't get enough of it into the case for it to be worth a hoot. I've never tried it in the 06 or even 308 but in cartridges like 357, 44, 45 Colt etc. it makes very accurate mouse fart loads load with cast.

Rick

[canuck4570]

I shoot 9.5 grain for 1050 fps for plinking
no gaz check and it is very accurate shoot all day without cleaning

[Gohon]

in the data on trail boss they give 19 gr for a 150 gr nosler jacketed bullet which offer much more resistance....

Lead casts in general do offer less resistance than the jacketed stuff if all things are equal. In this case all things are not equal. Cast bullet is over sized.....a little resistance there. Your load is 30 grains greater in weight........more resistance there. And last, it is a gas check which means that check is like a mini jacket that certainly offers resistance. So if they used their own formula to get 19 grains as max for a 150 grain jacketed bullet, which means 19 grains came to the base of the 150 grain load, then how can 180 grain bullet which would seat deeper come up with 19 grains also?

[canuck4570]

Lead casts in general do offer less resistance than the jacketed stuff if all things are equal. In this case all things are not equal. Cast bullet is over sized.....a little resistance there. Your load is 30 grains greater in weight........more resistance there. And last, it is a gas check which means that check is like a mini jacket that certainly offers resistance. So if they used their own formula to get 19 grains as max for a 150 grain jacketed bullet, which means 19 grains came to the base of the 150 grain load, then how can 180 grain bullet which would seat deeper come up with 19 grains also?
if you look at the RCBS bullet used in this loading shown above you will see its a bore riding bullet and sit in the case less deep than my 150 gr jacketed bullet... even there I played it safe and put less and still had some serious pressure sing
so the fuss is about the paragraph 1 that says put in powder till it touches the seated bullet and this will be a safe load
see the above link for the exact wording

[geargnasher]

Canuck, you made an excellent example of why you should always start low and work up, assuming nothing is safe with YOUR gun and YOUR components until proven so.

I'm not surprised you had pressure signs so early, heavy boolits, bottleneck case, etc.

I think there are too many unqualified opinions at IMR/Hodgdon/Winchester, marketing guys vs. technicians and chemists, all hoping their staff of lawyers will back them up.

Here's another unqualified opinion, mine, based on my half a can and three caliber experience (gave the rest away):smile::

Trailboss is junk, useless, and dangerous. While trying to engineer a safer powder for larger, straight-walled cases, they created a monster with a burn rate akin to TiteWad or Bullseye that won't meter in most measures. Look at the peak average pressure data vs. velocity for ANY cartridge they list and compare to, say, Universal or HS6, you'll see that Trailboss is spikey as heck, putting undue stress on the gun and brass for the velocity you get. Most definetely not for heavy-for-caliber boolits or anything more than the aforementioned "mouse fart" level of loading.

Now, wouldn't it be great if powder engineers could develop a similar powder that burned like Unique and would meter? Heck, I'd be happy with just a really bulky Unique, I can figure something out with metering if I could just get the POWDER. That would be perfect for .45 Colt and lighter .30-'06 loads as well.

Gear

[canuck4570]

you are correct in saying Unique is great....
I shot this afternoon 20 gr of aliant 2400 in my 06 with the same bullet and superb good group average 3/4 inches at 100 yards....velocity was 1710 fps
note ..... using carnauba red recently and I must say great lube.....

[geargnasher]

Yes, 2400 and Carnauba Red, both great products when used appropriately. I've never tried 2400 in the '06, and maybe I should. Most of my cast shooting in that caliber revolved around chasing 3,000 FPS with accuracy in a ten-twist sporter, never got there but got really close. Had so many good, accurate loads in the 2,200-2,400 fps range with medium-burning rifle powders that I never bothered with the traditional Unique and 2400 stuff, plus I got totally burned-out on load development, but learned a lot.

Gear

[lwknight]

Loading simply by case capacity is insanity. Bottleneck cases are completely different animals than straight walleed cases.
Its like doubling the case length and filling it up. That simply will not work out even if the bullets have the same sectional density.

If you had say a 30 caliber and a 50 caliber both straight cases of the same length and bullets that are exactly the same length, the developed optimal load would likely end up being the same depth of powder in both.

Bottlenecking would be like doubling the case length and powder depth. Of course a lot of other logistical physics would be in play but , thats the simple version.

[canuck4570]

Yes, 2400 and Carnauba Red, both great products when used appropriately. I've never tried 2400 in the '06, and maybe I should. Most of my cast shooting in that caliber revolved around chasing 3,000 FPS with accuracy in a ten-twist sporter, never got there but got really close. Had so many good, accurate loads in the 2,200-2,400 fps range with medium-burning rifle powders that I never bothered with the traditional Unique and 2400 stuff, plus I got totally burned-out on load development, but learned a lot.

Gear
what powder do you recommend for loads in the 2200 to 2400 fps

[madsenshooter]

This powder is made by ADI. I just downloaded their loading guide today. What few cast loads were in it were all Trail Boss loads. http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders-guide/pdfs/sphg.pdf They show 19gr with a 150 lead bullet in the 06 at 1480fps and 26,400psi. You can email ADI also: reload.support@adi-powders.com.au

[shotman]

I know what they say BUT I cant belive they say it. a 38-55 a 30-06 how about a 22-250 base of bullet and use 70% wow The 22-250 is a good one dont know how long it would take to get the power in the case

[geargnasher]

what powder do you recommend for loads in the 2200 to 2400 fps

Of course that depends on boolit weight. Lighter boolits like IMR 4895 and Win 760/H414, medium still like 760/H414 for low 2k but like IMR 4064 better sometimes for a bit faster. The heavies (200+grains) like IMR 4350 when pushed that fast. The great thing about the '06 is lots of things will work. If I were to start over, I'd try some of the Hodgdon Exreme powders for hunting loads with 180 grain boolits cast of 96-2-2 water-dropped and launched at about 2500 fps.

Gear

[Bret4207]

Well, it appears it is as I recalled. That pressure curve is surely going to change with a sharper bottle neck. Wonder what would happen with the really sharp BN like on the SSM series?

What I'd like to see them develop is a bulky powder with characteristics to the old "Bulk" smokeless where you could exchange it for black on a weight to weight basis. That would be handy and what I was thinking Trailboss might have been trying for.

[happy7]

that won't meter in most measures.
Gear

I was surprised to read this, because I always thought Trail Boss metered exceptionally well in both my dillon and the Lee auto disk measures.

I have never pushed this powder to higher loads, always using it in cases like 44 special, mag, 45 colt, 500 S&W, and 38 spl. It has been accurate, and I like that you can't double charge it in these cavernous cases. My only complaint is that grain for grain, it is on the pricey side.

[uncle joe]

I'm not familiar with trail boss, but unless it is fluffy, I would like to know how 19 grains fills an 06 case to the base of the bullet, when a case full is in the neighborhood of 60 grains of most powders.

that is what i was thinking, my 7mm rem mag load is 63 grains of rl22 and it's not quite to the base of the bullet. Trailboss must not have much mass at all if the same cal max load is 24 grs
must be like Mr Hodgdon told me when I first started using pyrodex and muzzel loading, I couldn't figure out why 90 grains of pyrodex didn't weigh 90 grains! He told me I had to dumb up a little black powder grs were volume not weight.
I have never seen instructions on a smokeless powder like those.
:holysheep

[PAT303]

I've been loading TB in all my rifles and have yet to have any issue at all except for very cheap very accurate loads.My 303's take a full case,13grns under 180grn bullets,6.5x55 takes a full case,12grns under a 150grn boolit and my 8x57 takes 16grns which is also a case full under the Lee maximum 250grn boolit and only yesterday shot four sub inch groups at 50 one straight after the other,the 6.5 will put three shots in the same half inch hole if I do my part at 50 and shoot inside a inch dia patch at 100,none of those rifles have hard or stiff extraction with a full case of TB.My martini 32/20,an action with very weak extraction has no issue with a full case of TB under a 130grn boolit.I really like TB. Pat

[Rocky Raab]

I have the same impression of the stuff as geargnasher. While it does flow quite nicely through a digital dispensing unit/scale, even precise weights of the stuff produce VERY wide velocity variations.

I tried it with both cast and plated bullets in 38 Special, 41 Special, 44 Special and 45 Colt. In several five-shot strings, I'd get one or more readings as much as 250 fps slower than the rest - and wild fliers on those shots as well.

The only half-decent load was in the 44 Special with a Lee 240 TL bullet and the powder filled exactly to the base of it. (I adjusted the top of the powder in the case compared to the shank of the bullet from base to crimp groove.) Even that load is nowhere near as accurate as several classic loads using other powders.

I have no intention of trying it in my .30-30. I'll be giving what's left of that jug away.

[Freightman]

Canuck, you made an excellent example of why you should always start low and work up, assuming nothing is safe with YOUR gun and YOUR components until proven so.

I'm not surprised you had pressure signs so early, heavy boolits, bottleneck case, etc.

I think there are too many unqualified opinions at IMR/Hodgdon/Winchester, marketing guys vs. technicians and chemists, all hoping their staff of lawyers will back them up.

Here's another unqualified opinion, mine, based on my half a can and three caliber experience (gave the rest away):smile::

Trailboss is junk, useless, and dangerous.

Now, wouldn't it be great if powder engineers could develop a similar powder that burned like Unique and would meter? Heck, I'd be happy with just a really bulky Unique, I can figure something out with metering if I could just get the POWDER. That would be perfect for .45 Colt and lighter .30-'06 loads as well.

Gear
Russian Unique, not a lot more bulk but some, wish I had bought lots more when it was cheap.

[cbrick]

Seems like Trail Boss is getting a bad rap. The only bottle neck case I've tried it in is the Hornet and that didn't work. Every straight wall case with cast I've tried it in worked very well but then that is/was it's original purpose . . . light cast loads for the Cowboy games.

I chronographed and group tested several different loadings and bullet weights from 150 to 212 gr in a Marlin 94 357. It grouped best and had the best chrono consistency with the lighter 150 gr SAECO #382, the heavier the bullet the worse the groups and worse chrono numbers.

The following 5 shot group @ 100 meters was with 5.0 gr TB, SAECO #382 cast of SWW +2% tin (6 BHN), 10 shot chrono average 1012 fps, standard deviation 14 and extreme spread 0f 50 fps. My notes also indicate that this group was fired at the end of the day and this group was the last of a total of 420 rounds fired without cleaning. I have fired many such groups with TB and the below picture is typical with this rifle.

Rick

[Artful]

I only use trailboss with subsonic loads but I know it was showing case position sensitivity, that's why I went with a custom case for 308 that makes it really a straight wall 308 with limited capacity so that I can fill up the case with trailboss seat the bullet on top of the powder and have just enough powder in there to make it to top of subsonic ranges (1000-1100 fps).

[tkcomer]

I used it in my K-98 with no problems. I've tried 11,12 and13grs with 198FMJs. Light powder puff loads. 12grs seem to be the best so far. And it may do better once I get this barrel clean. I've never gotten all of the gunk out of it yet.

[BCB]

Well, after reading all of these posts--pro and con--I am not sure what I am going to do!!!

I was (still probably will) going to purchase some of this Trail Boss stuff and use it with all of the cartridges I shoot cast boolits from...

That is mostly straight walled cases, but the 7-30, 30-30, and 270 were all going to get the test...

Guess I will just go on the instructions from the IMR site and go the route....

We shall see...

BCB

[canuck4570]

well no more top load with trail boss
only stater load for plinking and even there I will be using unique
thanks guys was interesting reading your comments and constructive also....

[Ohio Rusty]

Another thing I like, Trail Boss it is a very, very clean burning powder in pistol bullets.
Ohio Rusty

[BCB]

Another thing I like, Trail Boss it is a very, very clean burning powder in pistol bullets.
Ohio Rusty

What cartridges are you shooting Trail Boss in?

Thanks...BCB

[PAT303]

I'll be shooting TB in my 6.5x55-8x57-303-30/30 tomorrow and look forward to it.I don't know what is different between your rifles and mine but I'll be getting another bottle as soon as this one runs out. Pat

[Dill45]

I've never tried it in a bottle neck case, but I've had good success with it in straight wall cases using lighter bullets for the caliber.

My 45-70 shoots really well with 14.7gr's of TB under a 300gr bullet. Using any load of TB under a 405gr bullet and the accuracy starts to fail. Same with my S&W 500.

Though it works quite well with my 357/45/460.

[303Guy]

I'd suggest TB would be just fine in the 30-30 and likely in the 303 too. A case full of TB in a 30-06 is not an inconsiderable charge. The 303 Brit and 308 has a much smaller case. Having said that I have experienced bolt lift resistance with a 303 Brit using a Bullseye equivalent and a very heavy boolit. I don't remember the charge but it wasn't too small. I was testing it as a powder for use in my short barreled and suppressed pig gun. Not only did I give up on that idea but I ended up right on the other side of the spectrum with light loads of 4350 and wheat bran filler. (60% Load Density before the WB is added) . The suppressor does not cope too well with the muzzle blast but it works.

[noylj]

Are you sure that was no possibility that you compressed the charge? You didn't thunk the case bottom a couple of times to "settle the powder?"
Was this a sudden occurrence or did you work up and see any signs of pressure before you reached what seems to be a max for your rifle?
I think that there are just enough ways to "screw up" and the powder can be sensitive to any compression, that I plan to just stick with Unique and 2400.

[tkcomer]

The very few rifle tests that I've seen with bottle neck brass don't use anywhere near the max load of Trail Boss. In every test, accuracy fell off before they even got near the max load.

[blackthorn]

“Artful said “I only use trailboss with subsonic loads but I know it was showing case position sensitivity, that's why I went with a custom case for 308 that makes it really a straight wall 308 with limited capacity so that I can fill up the case with trailboss seat the bullet on top of the powder and have just enough powder in there to make it to top of subsonic ranges (1000-1100 fps)”.

Artful—would you mind expanding on the “custom case” and your reasons for going to that much trouble so that you can shoot a particular powder? Thanks!

[PAT303]

The very few rifle tests that I've seen with bottle neck brass don't use anywhere near the max load of Trail Boss. In every test, accuracy fell off before they even got near the max load.

In all my rifles I didn't get accuracy until I nearly filled the case.I like TB because my rifles don't get hot shooting it and because I shoot allot of reduced loads the one thing that always worried me was a double charge,with TB thats impossible.I have a feeling that if the charge was increased in the 30/06 to reduce the air space the pressure problem would go away. Pat

[azcruiser]

I have loaded 6.5x55 =308win=8mm Mauser=303 Brit=762x54 rim Russian=45/70 all with no problems with Trail Boss. Loaded .223 and 22-250rem and 6mm rem with these smaller mouthed cases I found that slowing down my loading and taping the powder hopper after the powder drops worked better. Another thing I found with Trail Boss don't leave it in the powder hopper over night seem to clump together easy fix is to shake the hopper before restarting in the morning.Then it seem to meter just fine my buddy taped one of those Gillette vibrating little razors to his hopper hes happy don't know it it make that much difference??I'm old can't take the recoil that much anymore so to me Trail Boss is GREAT

[tuckerdog]

I've been using trail boss for about a year with no ill effects.you have to be careful it does not like to be compressed even a little bit,you get erratic burn rate and large pressure spikes. using 19 grn w/180 grn boolit seems a little much,if powder makes contact w/base when seated try not seating so deep.I've not tried it in bottle neck cartridges but in straight wall it seems to me to the berries for "mouse fart" loads

[canuck4570]

yes it seems that starting load or just above works well
I shoot 4570, 308, 3006 to name a few and no problem with low loads.....
what I have noticed is that in my 4570 when reaching this max load of 18 grain I get primers that are really flat and some round ones
and strange detonation
it seems the same when I tried max or near with the 06
so from now on only low loads will be used

[jandbn]

Not to hijack the OP’s thread in regards to bottlenecks, but I’ve used TB both prior to and after reading Hodgdon’s the “Trail Boss Reduced Loads” (http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf) publication in my Ruger Bisley 45 Colt. I thought I would share info/data/opinion for those that may be interested.

Like others here, my initial thoughts with TB were to avoid double charges (just back into guns/reloading after 20+ years) and light loads (for the wife and kid). After reading “Trail Boss Reduced Loads” my intent was to see if accuracy would improve with higher pressure loads. Leading was minimal with plain base bullets prior to lapping. There shouldn’t be any need to use GC bullets with TB, but another interest was in establishing load data and seeing if a GC was more accurate and eliminated the leading. The Bisley still has a constriction at the frame/barrel after fire lapping and the GC eliminated the leading. As far as accuracy with TB loads, the lighter the bullet, the better the accuracy seemed to be. Then again, the lighter the slugs, the more powder/pressure was used. So from an accuracy standpoint the jury is still out as pressures weren’t the same for the various bullet/load combos. In my opinion, at least in my Bisley, TB is fairly dirty with light loads. This may be due in part from the .005-.006 barrel to cylinder gap reducing pressure/burn rate; my velocities with H110 loads are around 100 fps slower than published velocities.

The load data listed below is unpublished and for MY revolver only and should be considered Ruger Only. Use at your own risk and as always, start low and work up! YMMV.


Loads which were not chronographed and prior to reading “Trail Boss Reduced Loads”:

For the 325 grain LFNPB, I extrapolated 454 Casull data from Hodgdon’s website. The Bisley is easily capable of pressure listed by Hodgdon for TB and the 454. I used 4.2 to 5.2 with 325 grain LFNPBs (culled/damaged from dropping the box). For comparison purposes, below is load data for the 454 and 325 LFNPB from Hodgdon’s website:

24921

I fire lapped the Bisley using 280 WFNPBs and 3.0 to 3.7 grains of TB. When lapping, I did stick a few in the barrel when using fired unsized cases, no crimp, and a charge weight less than 3.4 grains. As dirty as the revolver got with powder residue, it sure didn’t take long to figure out there wasn’t enough pressure to seal the brass in the chamber with those light loads.


Chronograph data after reading “Trail Boss Reduced Loads”:

The loads below that I did chrono after reading “Trail Boss Reduced Loads” in my opinion are more than likely to much pressure for any revolver except revolvers similar in strength to Ruger Blackhawk, Ruger Bisley, and Ruger Vaquero (not the New Vaquero). As an FYI, I use WLP primers. My Starline cases are 1.275” long and will hold 9.3 grains of TB to the case mouth (actual measurement by weight scooped from powder jug-not calculated). Based on COL, bullet length, Lee’s Volume Measure Density for TB, .2172, and calculated using case water volume, my Starline cases @ 100% charge weight will hold 8.6 grains for the 280 LFNGC and 8.2 grains for the 300 WFNGC. Lee’s VMD for TB may be off or my powder wasn’t as bulky as 9.0 was able to be dropped under the 280 LFNGC without compressing the powder. It may also be that more TB fit in the case because I using an RCBS Uniflow Powder Measure and that dropping from the UPM into the case allowed more powder that what I had calculated. The % Fill rate: in the 280 LFNGC and 300 WFNGC tables below are calculated, not actual. (All said and done, TB was not as accurate as H110 with the GC bullets.)

280 LFNGC – 5 shots per charge weight


Hi Vel: 776 794 801 832 841
Low Vel: 735 765 787 777 804
Ave Vel: 753 779 795 804 824
Ext Spread: 41 29 14 55 37
Std Dev: 16 10 6 17 13
Charge Wt. 7.0 7.5 8.0 8.5 9.0
% Fill rate: 81% 87% 93% 99% 105%


24924

Again, for comparison purposes, below is Hodgdon’s website data for the 454:

24926

300 WFNGC – 12 shots per charge weight (I had to push the 300 WFNGC rounds in the cylinder with my finger to fully seat the case rim due to throats .001’ish smaller than the bullet.)


Hi Vel: 666 718 749
Low Vel: 635 675 723
Ave Vel: 656 698 734
Ext Spread: 31 43 26
Std Dev: 9 12 6
Charge Wt. 6.0 6.5 7.0
% Fill rate: 73% 79% 85%


24925

My assumption is that even though Hodgdon says cases can be loaded to the base of the bullet, I was at the upper limits of Ruger Only loads. As defined by Hodgdon’s “Trail Boss Reduced Loads” max load and extrapolating data, I don’t think a Colt or clone would stand up to the pressures generated with a 100% charge weight/fill rate. I would also assume there are other straight wall and bottleneck cartridges where the defined max load of TB would be of concern.

[Artful]

“Artful said “I only use trailboss with subsonic loads but I know it was showing case position sensitivity, that's why I went with a custom case for 308 that makes it really a straight wall 308 with limited capacity so that I can fill up the case with trailboss seat the bullet on top of the powder and have just enough powder in there to make it to top of subsonic ranges (1000-1100 fps)”.

Artful—would you mind expanding on the “custom case” and your reasons for going to that much trouble so that you can shoot a particular powder? Thanks!

You can read some of the story here...
http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=280&page=3

Basically I wanted a cartridge that could be carried and loaded in any manner, and then shot from any position and not have it change the ballistic's of the projectile. Specifically I wanted subsonic ammo that could be trusted to stay subsonic and have a repeatable POI from a suppessed 308.

[blackthorn]

Thank you Artful---question answered. Have a great day!

[calinb]

I am using 15.0gr of Trail Boss in my 30-06, under a 160gr cast lead RN with a gas check. I am shooting these in an 03-A3 with no pressure signs. I have not gone past 15gr, as 15gr is a very accurate load for this rifle, and I stopped there. That being said, I have shot hundreds of these rounds through this rifle with no problems. I also got 19gr as a max load with the 160gr bullet (and 13.3gr starting load), and I suspect the 180gr is a longer bullet. Could be that 17gr is the max for you, not 19gr. Just guessing, as I dont have that 180gr bullet to look at, heh
I worked my way up to 19gr with a Lee 160gr bullet (actually 153 as cast with a GC). No problems, except it won't cycle the action on my M1 Garand. 35 or 36gr of H4895 will do the trick, though.

[canuck4570]

I think all of you guys are correct with your replies
the issue here I think and is the reason for the start of this thread is what is mark in paragraph one in the trail boss site
it should be like any other powder
they should state a starting load and a maximum
and specially be stated that you should start at the starting load and go up carefully and check pressure sign.
here is the link to the trail boss site so you could read the paragraph 1

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

[XWrench3]

that sounds like a pretty generic statement to me. it might be ok in some cases, but there are a million old firearms out there that were developed way before any smokeless powder was even a dream. plus, there are other issues like tight chambers and throats that will alter the pressure. it also says nothing about using magnum primers, and weith the limited availability that we are just now starting to get over with, what about that aspect. nope, i would not want to be IMR's lawyer trying to defend that statement in a court of law. especially if a young person is seriously hurt or dies from it! can you say, sign over the company! that being said, i am going to pick up a bottle, and try iy. not to try to do any specific testing or anything like that. i am just a little tired of SR-4759. and maybe this will burn a little cleaner.

[canuck4570]

you will love trail bass with soft loads
I have shot thousand in my 3006
load was 9.5 gr at 1050 fps with a 180 Rcbs bullet
shoots clean and very accurate
accurate I mean 1 inch or less at 100 yards
1 1/2 to 2 inches at 200 yards
why so low fps well I noticed that going over the speed of sound I lost the superb accuracy at 200 yards...

[TCLouis]

Isn't this probably why all loading manuals say, 'start with beginning loads and work your way up slowly watching for pressure signs'?

[canuck4570]

yes all reloading book say that
but here you read your load will be under the max load permitted in your cartridge
read paragraph 1
It should read like you say and any other reloading book start at the beginning and work up carefully
http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

[Gohon]

Very first page of the Hodgdon reload data........ "For all brands of powders use only the components shown. If the reloader makes any changes in components or gets new lot numbers, he should begin again with the starting loads and work up to maximum cautiously."

and

"For those loads listed where a starting load is not shown, start 10% below the suggested maximum load and then approach maximums carefully, watching for any sign of pressure (difficult extraction, cratered and flattened or blown primers, and unusual recoil)."

If they had to add that disclaimer after every set of load data their manual would double in size.

In paragraph two, section three it states..... "Start with this beginning load and work up to you're maximum charge. They do state a starting load and a maximum load. Do they really have to remind everyone of the warning they stated on the very first page of their load data?

[canuck4570]

yes you are correct in saying so
they say aloso use only powder listed below each caliber
how come every cast bullet shooter use Unique, red dot, aliant 2400 in caliber such as 3006 and so on
and why do they say loads with trail boss to the bottom of the bullet in your cartridge is below maximum pressure
this in contrarily to all they saying about developping a load....

[oscar.45]

Cupcake loads about sums it up. I tried 8.5 gr. TB in my 30-30 with 165 gr. .309 bullets from Chey –Cast Bullets out of Cheyenne Wy. Wow talk about soft shooting cupcake load. I have not shot my 30-30 in about a year and I was getting 2” groups at 50 yards of hand with open sights, not bad in my book. I also loaded up some 158 gr. FP BB from Big Iron Bullets in Wellington Co. with 4.2 gr. of TB for my GP-100. I have not shot this gun in over 5 years and was able to pull off 12 shots that could be covered with a .50 cent piece at 7 yards – cupcake soft loads!

I am very impressed with the soft accurate loads that TB provides. I have not tried loads for my 9mm or .45 as of yet but might give them a try. I see no problems, other than cost of re-loading, to shoot hundreds of rounds a day out of either gun.

[new2cast]

O gosh this an old thread but it came up in a google search for me.

Let me understand this correctly:

IMR lists 19 grains as a max for a 150 grain J-bullet?
And the OP is warning that he got pressure signs at 17 with a bullet that was 30 GRAINS heavier than the listed data?

This is good information but I don't think any warning is necessary. No more necessary than shooting any other load that may present pressure signs.

It sounds like we're trying to blame the powder somehow....

[wallenba]

I'm not familiar with trail boss, but unless it is fluffy, I would like to know how 19 grains fills an 06 case to the base of the bullet, when a case full is in the neighborhood of 60 grains of most powders.

VERY fluffy. A regular 1 pound bottle only holds 9 ounces of the stuff.

On the other note, I use it in most of my milsurps in the 170-180 grain boolit weights. I have had no problems to date.

[MikeS]

There's another powder that's supposed to be also for light cast loads called Tin Star. Has anyone tried this powder, and how does it compare to Trail Boss? It's made by Vihtavuori which is imported by Hodgdon too, so maybe they're not selling it in the US?

[1Shirt]

Have tried TB in straight walled and bottle neck cases. 22H,223, 6.5x55, 308, 375H&H, 357M, 38S, 44M, & 444. Will use it again for the straight walled cases, as it does well in them. Results in bottle necked cases were less than desireable. No safety problems, but very poor results.
1Shirt!

[new2cast]

Define "poor"

[1Shirt]

Poor results=not accurate, poor groups.
1Shirt!

[new2cast]

You're not being very helpful LOL

I wasn't asking for a restatement just a measurement of average groups :)

Thanks!

[prs]

Gear, the powder you just wished for and bee around for centuries, the Chineese are given credit for it. Try Swiss ffg in 45 Colt

prs

[ShooterAZ]

I have used Trail Boss in 30-06, 308, 7.62x54R, both with cast and j-bullets with no problems and surprising accuracy. No issues here...I personally like the stuff very much. I use it in handgun loads also.

[303Guy]

Is TB indicated for heavy boolits or only lighter ones in bottle neck cases?

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Remarkable the differences in results with TB. Has anyone been through several lots? If so, how consitant were the different lots?

[375RUGER]

That stuff is gun powder?:eek: I thought it was expensive cereal filler or donut seeds. I feel so blond right now.;-)

[3006guns]

I got on the Trail Boss bandwagon a couple of years ago, hoping to use it as a less expensive option to Unique, 2400, etc. in my milsurp calibers.

Initial results looked promising in 8 x 57, starting with a 9 grn. load. However when I get up to around 11 grns. accuracy goes south in a hurry (this is with a 214grn. plain base boolit). What finally tipped me off was the fact that the accuracy disappeared at that charge level in TWO SEPARATE RIFLES.

Now, 11 grns. is not much of a charge........but with a 214 grn. boolit things changed dramatically and FAST. No pressure signs, but the load simply isn't accurate so why fool with it any further?

I'll still play with the Trail Boss, but in smaller doses for plinking. For any real serious work I think I'll stick with 2400 or Unique.

[plainsman456]

I haven't used it in anything but the 45-70,the boolits weighed 325 grains.
As they were to be shot in a trapdoor springfield I didn't need to go heavier than 16 grains.
They were real tight on a target at 100 yards and a lot of fun launching them out to 600+.