.41 Special

[beagle]

I see in the latest issue of Handloader that Brian Pierce is crying out for a .41 Special.

What we really need is a Super Blackhawk with a convertible .44 Special cylinder.

Then, if that pans out like I think it might, make a .41 Magnum/Special convertible.

What we need first is a Blackhawk .32-20/beagle

[45 2.1]

I see in the latest issue of Handloader that Brian Pierce is crying out for a .41 Special.

What we really need is a Super Blackhawk with a convertible .44 Special cylinder.

Then, if that pans out like I think it might, make a .41 Magnum/Special convertible.

What we need first is a Blackhawk .32-20/beagle

How about a standard blackhawk in 44 Special, that would go over BIG!
The 32-20 has been done via a Buckeye run and it was NICE, another would be great.

[9.3X62AL]

All good ideas for sure. The new down-sized Vaquero seems like a natural for the 44 Special and the 32-20.......although I would prefer adjustable sights.

[beagle]

Has to have adjustable sights......

I know th e.32-20's been done but I missed it. Time to do it again./beagle

[floodgate]

John: This is an OLD idea, but still a good one! "Pop" Eimer used to make these up using semi-rim .401 SLR cases, in SAA's and other handguns. A couple of us were working up the same conversion on an old Rugger "flat-top" BH and a S&W M&P, using cut-off .303 Salvaje cases (plentiful back then) when Remington and S&W announced the .41 magnum - an overkill for our purposes, though a fine cartridge for the heavier revolavers. Then, "Big Al the Armorer" dropped in to the shop and asked "Why not a .44 Special?" "Not possible in an M&P frame." we answered. "Nothing is impossible' said Al, and that is how Bob Paxton (developer of the .30/.357 Paxton in Ackley's book) and I ended up with our five-shot K-44's; to my thinking the PERFECT compact handgun! It involved opening up the frame "window" a hair, welding up the frame above the crane for a slightly beefier barrel thread, and making perfectly-profiled barrels out of a chunk of .44 marlin Micro-Groove (yeah, I know... But it shoots great!) and ejector lugs and sights cut off our old S&W
barrels. The "throwby" hand on the S&W mechanism gives perfect timing and lockup (he never could get Colts to work right). Al showed a cylinder blank to Bill Gunn, then President of S&W; Bill never batted an eye: "Been browsing around our experimental shop, eh?" But it never came to pass, at least at the time (back in the '60's); I understand S&W had a brief flirtation with the idea again around 2000. Mine is the LAST handgun they'll "pry out of my cold, dead...etc."

floodgate

[9.3X62AL]

Floodgate--

It sounds like you guys invented the L-frame before S&W did. A 5-shot 686 in 41 or 44 Special seems do-able. Hopefully, it would be of steel construction without neon sights, and a 4" barrel would be nice.

[beagle]

DA and floodgate...Man, a 586 in .44 Special would be my cup of tea...5 or 6 banger...whatever. 4" Blue with the underlug. What a shooter.

#2 son has consented to loan me his M24 .44 Special this summer so I can work on that. 4" Blue. I been trying to screw him out of it for about three years now.

I mention the Ruger in .44 Special as I like Ruger SAs and don't see why Ruger don't make a run...32-20s as well. They have all of the tooling required and it would be a simple matter to transfer drawings on CAD and we're not talking radical pressures here or anything that old Elmer would dream up.

I'll bet a 5K gun run of each would be gone in no time./beagle

[ddixie884]

Foodgate would you elaborate on your .44? please.........

[runfiverun]

dixie, i doubt you'll get floodgate to respond here. too bad too, i miss him.

[Lloyd Smale]

ruger is making the small framed blackhawks in 44 special and smith allreayd makes a 5 shot L frame its the 396 44 special alothough its an alloy gun. They made of couple runs of 696s and they were stainless and wonderful guns. I foolishly sold the one i had. I had a single six made up in 41 special. It was one of those things i thought i had to have. Once i started loading for it all i could think about was that the 44 specail beat it all to hell in every catagory. I ended up trading it off on a 44 mag and a 45 colt with boge quinn. to be honest ive never been able to get excited about any 41. Ive had many of them through the years and looking in the safe the only one left is a clements 41 mag on an old model 357 frame. Probably wouldnt have that one either except for i foolishly had him engrave my name on it when he built it and that makes it tough to get your money back out of.

[Rocky Raab]

Lloyd, I don't know how he does it, but Dave Clements got ALL the ruger markings off my custom flattop except for the serial number. I'm sure he could get you name off but the cost of doing that would be a dead loss in the sale.

Mine is a 41 Special, of course. Many of us have truly enjoyed our 41 Specials over the years, and written about them. John Taffin, Hamilton Bowen, Brian Pierce and yours truly have been among those extolling the short 41 and wondering why it hasn't been commercialized. Even if nobody made a gun chambered specifically for the Special, having the ammo would go a long way to re-invigorating the 41 Magnum.

[Ctkelly]

Sometime this year there was a gent in the S&W forums who had starline make a run of 41 special brass, properly headstamped and all. He had quite a few pieces at the time, if any of you are interested might be worth checking out.

[Rocky Raab]

All you need to start shooting 41 Specials are the cases and (possibly) a simple modification of your seater die. If you are a 41 fan, you owe it to yourself to enjoy the Special. It has all the commodious benefits of the familiar 38 and 44 Specials, but in "our" bore diameter.

Buy cases or trim Mag-length ones to 1.16" and (if necessary) grind or turn a bit off the bottom of your seater die so the shorter brass can reach the crimp shoulder, and you are done.

[floodgate]

ddixie:

Nothing to elaborate on, really. It was a stock pre-wwII K frame with the cylinder cutout and crane opening "adjusted" a bit (I understand the L frame is slightly larger overall, but with a K-frame grip). Ours were tested with full (slightly hot) charges of Unique and held up just fine. I forgot to say the barrel came in at 4" even.

Works just fine, except when I forget and "short-stroke" that old long action, which has happened only once or twice. The L-frame version in blued steel would be just about perfect.

floodgate

[StarMetal]

Guys,

Floodgate couldn't post the picture of that revolver he spoke of here so I'm doing it for him. Here she is:

Joe
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/starmetal47/P1000440.jpg

[Marlin Hunter]

How about a standard blackhawk in 44 Special, that would go over BIG!



I am not that familiar with the Blackhawk craze, although I have shot one, but isn't the purpose of a Blackhawk to be a hand cannon? A "xx special" only Blackhawk seems to defeat the purpose of having a Blackhawk. I can understand wanting dual cylinders.

[Dframe]

I used to have a blackhawk 45 acp/ 45 colt. After a year or so it occurred to me I'd never shot the 45 acp cylinder. I think these conversions aren't nearly as useful as your first impression would indicate. As far as the 41 special goes, It sounds interesting but what can it do that the 44 special won't? Not trying to diss anyone, just can't see the utility.

[runfiverun]

if you carry a revolver around in a holster enough you can see why a 4-58th inch bbl with a shorter cylinder is so handy.
something in 41-44 special is right handy and strong enough to bring up the loads with.
the special cases have enough powder space to make a potent round with even fairly heavy boolits,and low enough case space that small game hunting is easy enough to do.
i carry a 41 black hawk around for thumping jack rabbits and yotes in the desert.
it is really horrible in the accuracy dept [thats from shooting it so much] but it carries the best of all my revolvers,except maybe my usfa's.

[canyon-ghost]

I have a lot of reading to do now. I ordered a 41 magnum New Model Blackhawk the other day. There's also a 44 special out now too. Might be another good buy.

Now, Beagle, about that 32-20 WCF, I want the second one, after you, sir! That would be another dream come true.

Back to my reading,
Ron

[MtGun44]

I have a 396 Nightguard which is an L-frame 5 shot .44 special. Of course, it is set up as
an ultralight snub nosed CCW gun, not a regular S&W 4" or 5" steel or SS gun. Absolutely nothing
stopping them from making it except they don't think there is a market for them.

Anybody know the guys at some of those bigger S&W distributors that have gotten
S&W (and Ruger recently) to make up a batch of some oddball version of their normal
guns and take the risk of distribution? I would guess that the distributor has to agree
to buy 100% of the production run and is then on the hook if that particular variation
doesn't sell.

If we knew a distributor contact, maybe we could do a deal kinda like a group buy.
Any good businessman could make this work if we could get up enough deposits. My
bet is the minimum run is at least 500 guns and maybe more. Could we get up
hefty deposits for 500 L-frame 696 or steel 596 with 4" or 5" barrels? I kinda doubt
it, but who knows.

The ULTIMATE group buy! :bigsmyl2:

I'm talking about .44 Spl L frames, but there is no reason that they couldn't be .41 Spl
L-frames, too. Just gotta get enough interest up.

Bill

[Lloyd Smale]

Taffin was the one that convinced me to have mine built. He has one that is identitcal. Galagher built johns mine and my buddy Als at the same time. Sorry guys but i still dont see what all the excitement with one is all about. Anything it can do can be done better with a 44 special. I guess theres nothing wrong with one if thats what floats your boat. I went through a time where i had to have about every 41 i could find. I thought they were the cool gun to own but years of hunting and shooting and comparing them to the 44s has shown me that theres a reason why some guns are cult popular and some are just plain good enough to really be popular. Me ill take a 44 hands down anyday.
Lloyd, I don't know how he does it, but Dave Clements got ALL the ruger markings off my custom flattop except for the serial number. I'm sure he could get you name off but the cost of doing that would be a dead loss in the sale.

Mine is a 41 Special, of course. Many of us have truly enjoyed our 41 Specials over the years, and written about them. John Taffin, Hamilton Bowen, Brian Pierce and yours truly have been among those extolling the short 41 and wondering why it hasn't been commercialized. Even if nobody made a gun chambered specifically for the Special, having the ammo would go a long way to re-invigorating the 41 Magnum.

[DevilDog83]

I've been trimming .41 Mag brass to 1.050" to what I call ".41 SS" short special and have worked up a great load with Trail Boss powder. I use it in ICORE retro division and have a ball with it. I shoot it in a 6" S&W 57 , no recoil and very accurate.

[NHlever]

Back in the day when the only .44's from Ruger were the 7 1/2" Super Blackhawks, and very hard to find (even then) flattops, I carried a .41 mag. Blackhawk because it was the lightest powerful package I could find. I liked it a lot, and found that it was accurate, and didn't have the dimensional problems that the .45 Colts did. Now there are other choices although the .41caliber will always be a good one. My 5 1/2" Super Blackhawk weighs 38 ounces, or about the same as a 1911 with the aluminum grip frame I installed. My .45 Colt / ACP weighs around 35 ounces with the 4 5/8" barrel, and plastic grips. Those pretty much take care of my large caliber walkabout guns. I would be very interested in a 41 Special, or .44 Special that weighed between those numbers. Of course I have the usual 4", and 6" D/A .357's that are just fun to shoot, and carry, a .454, and a Redhawk too, for stand hunting, etc.

[watkibe]

I have 357, 41, and 44 magnum handguns. Theoretically, I have the option of shooting 38 Special, 41 Special, and 44 Special in them. It's a nice thing to think about, but the truth is this: after I sold my 38 revolver, I never loaded or shot 38s again in my 357s. It is easier (and maybe better) to just load a 38-level load in a 357 case. I have never bought 41 or 44 cases for the same reason. Adjusting the dies, sorting cases, keeping track of 2 case length gages just made reloading to Special levels instead much more practical.
The only real advantage I can see, as has been noted above, is that smaller framed 5-shot revolvers can be used with the Special cases.
As far as new Blackhawks go, I would vote for 327 mag.

[Rocky Raab]

Well, we hear much the same argument from owners of 30-378 rifles: there's no need for the 30-06 because I can always download my big boomer to those ballistics.

Except that downloading rounds almost never produces either the load consistency or the accuracy of a smaller round in a gun chambered for it. If downloading were such a good idea we wouldn't need 38 or 44 Specials, either.

[hammerhead357]

I am glad to see this thread resurrected. I have been contemplating both the 41 and the 44 special in an old model blackhawk or one of the new anniversery blackhawks. However right now other obligations come first so this may never happen for me. It is good to read about other peoples experince and thoughts about them tho....Wes

[alamogunr]

I have a 396 Nightguard which is an L-frame 5 shot .44 special. Of course, it is set up as
an ultralight snub nosed CCW gun, not a regular S&W 4" or 5" steel or SS gun. L-frames, too.
Bill

Sorry to temporarily hijack the thread, but could you elaborate a little on your impression of the 396 Nightguard. I have been looking at them for some time but could not bring myself to pull the trigger(funds, you know!).

Take this to another thread if you want.

John
W.TN

[Piedmont]

Some folks just can't get past thinking it is always about power. This is where statements like "the .44 Spl. beats the .41 Spl everytime" come from. There is nothing wrong with that view but it is just one view.

Last summer it started to gel in my mind while shooting light .45 ACP rounds through a M1917 Smiff that there is a lot of joy in not getting your hand pounded yet still throwing a fairly large bullet. This means reduced loads and lighter bullets. If you want to do that with good consistency in your ammo you need smaller capacity cases. It seems to me that .45 ACP/AR and .44 Russian are about perfect.

The .44 spl case is much longer than the Russian. The Russian is a smidge longer than an ACP. The Russian was THE target round in the late 1800s and early 1900s. The .45 ACP has been THE target round since maybe 1950 to present. There must be something to this concept.

[ddixie884]

What I like about mine is that it is a 6 shot .41 on a .41 frame, and there is no lock work changes in an L-frame. Thank you Floodgate, and Star Metal, for the info, and pics. Here are some bad pics of mine.

[hammerhead357]

Nice handgun there ddixie884. I have also thought about a 41 or 44 special built on one of my extra Ruger speed or service sixes with a 2 3/4 in. barrel. I think this would be a pretty good ccw carry arm....Wes

[Lloyd Smale]

sorry but its not just power that makes it better. Brass is a heck of alot easier to come buy. Theres factory ammo avaliable, molds and avaliable jacketed bullets are much more widely available and there are many more to chose from with the 44. Buy a gun is a matter of going to the store instead of waiting two years for a custom and yes the 44 special is a much better round to load up for actuall big game hunting. I cant seem to think of a single advantage teh 41 specail has over it. Now if it were comercialized and brass was easy to find and guns were there for the buying i might consider one. Especially if it were done in a L frame smith. make mine a 3 inch gun like dixies!

QUOTE=Piedmont;764498]Some folks just can't get past thinking it is always about power. This is where statements like "the .44 Spl. beats the .41 Spl everytime" come from. There is nothing wrong with that view but it is just one view.

Last summer it started to gel in my mind while shooting light .45 ACP rounds through a M1917 Smiff that there is a lot of joy in not getting your hand pounded yet still throwing a fairly large bullet. This means reduced loads and lighter bullets. If you want to do that with good consistency in your ammo you need smaller capacity cases. It seems to me that .45 ACP/AR and .44 Russian are about perfect.

The .44 spl case is much longer than the Russian. The Russian is a smidge longer than an ACP. The Russian was THE target round in the late 1800s and early 1900s. The .45 ACP has been THE target round since maybe 1950 to present. There must be something to this concept.[/QUOTE]

[Rocky Raab]

Lloyd, your points are valid, but the analogy is wrong. It isn't that the 41 Special is better or not as good as a cartridge in some other bore diameter, but rather that it serves as a necessary and needed complement to the 41 Magnum.

Nobody argues that the 38 or 44 Special isn't as broadly useful as the 357 and 44 Magnums and are thereby unnecessary. Nor is it entirely a matter of those two Specials being there before their stretched versions. Both are genuinely useful in their own right - hence their continued popularity.

That same usefulness is abundant in the 41 Special as a 41, not in comparison to any other bore size.

[Heavy lead]

I'm a .41 fan, in fact I could do without the .44 (as Missionary5155 points out a .43) as long as I had my .45's. With that said, the .41 is as good as dead, the .41 special won't help it either. Truth is the .44 Special wouldn't be here except for the fact that it was here before the .44 Magnum. They are all fine cartridges, with all valid points, but the overlap is much more than the market could support. The .41 Special has and always will be a good wildcat round, much like the .338-06 (favorite rifle cartridge) but that is all. Remember, when you are talking factory rounds, it's all about the supply and demand.

[Rocky Raab]

The funny thing is that I read an article (Gun Digest?) some 20 years ago entitled "The Moribund Magnum" that bewailed the imminent death of the 41 - and yet it is probably as popular now as it has ever been. It will never be wildly popular, I grant you, but there are plenty of shooters who are fond of it, and that shows no tendency to change.

[exile]

I just bought one in November of 2009. Lots of people here seem to like them, so I hope the .41 magnum continues. Seems to me that the advantage of the .41 over the .44 in the 686 would be six holes instead of five, yet a larger boolit than a .38. I know a lot of people would say just shoot a .357 magnum load, but I would imagine that a .41 special would have more knockdown power than a .38 with less recoil than a .357 magnum. Also sounds like a .41 special is what Elmer Keith and Bill Jordan were after in the first place as a self-defense round. Some might be more comfortable with an L-frame for carry rather than an N-frame.

I have never fired a .41 special, so please take this for the arm-chair advice that it is. Still the .41 Special in a 686 intrigues me.

exile

[ddixie884]

I beleive Starline is very close to offering the .41 special as a standard offering. They allready have the head stamp. I know this for sure, I paid for it. They even agreed to make my run of this brass 50,000, instead of 100,000 pieces. I really beleive they had been contemplating making it. Meanwhile, they are back ordered on nearly all of their large caliber offerings. This means, probably, it will have to wait for a time when they are more desperate for business. Factory guns are just one offering away. If one company makes one, and saami sets standards for pressure, there are too many easily adapted platforms to the .41 concept, namely the S&W 686, and the GP100 Ruger. JMHO, could be wrong. Not the first time.

[Heavy lead]

The funny thing is that I read an article (Gun Digest?) some 20 years ago entitled "The Moribund Magnum" that bewailed the imminent death of the 41 - and yet it is probably as popular now as it has ever been. It will never be wildly popular, I grant you, but there are plenty of shooters who are fond of it, and that shows no tendency to change.

I hope you're right, as I like the .41. I didn't find it until a couple years ago, I like it. I have three now, and want one more. When I find a 657 or 57 with a 3" or 4" barrel I will buy it.
But I don't think it appeals to the masses as the 44 or 45 does.

[Lloyd Smale]

you guys that the 41 really excites ought to take a look at the new 310 night gurard smith. Its a 3 inch scandium framed stainless cylinder gun that shoots the 40 smith or the 10mm in moon clips. The 10mm can be loaded down to about identical performance a 41 special would give and alothough its in an N frame its still by far lighter then any stainless L frame would be. I had a 646 which was the older version on a L frame in just 40 sw and it was troublesome because of the excessive stretch in the alloy cylinder. Hot ammo would expand it when shot and it would contract back down on the case and made it a bear to extract 6 at a time but now there using stainless cylinders and that should cure that problem. Even the old 646 was capable of 41 special level performance. Cool thing with the 310 would be youd have an option to shoot cheap factory ammo and buy excellent self defense ammo if you wanted to carry it for that. Another advantage is .40 brass is about given away. To bad someone doesnt come up with a .40 auto rim so guys that dont like moon clips could shoot them in one. Me i like moon clip guns. Makes it nice at the range. I load a bunch of clips before i go there and my brass comes out in nice 6 round bundles that are much easier for this old man with a bad back to pick up.

[felix]

Around my house, the 41 Special cries out loud for a small primer pocket! ... felix

[Dframe]

Perhaps I've been overly hasty. If an L frame gun with a two inch barrel in six shot configuration was available I think a 41 special might be just the ticket. I'd want it in all steel (Not mystery metal) in a slimmed down round butt configuration. Afterall thats one of the selling points of a 44 special over a magnum, that it can be had in a lighter much handier package. Sounds like a bunch of fun to me.

[TAWILDCATT]

colt made 41 colts in the 1880/90 and they did not do well. you can blame the gun but they were in SA too.smith made them for police use AKA jordan ect.that did not go over either.my personal take is the more cart.we have the more it will cost.and some of these are going to die out.there is probably a nich for them but a small nich.to change cases means a take down of dies and replace,which means time lost and right now we need production.I wonder how long the shortage will be.It does not effect me,I have more of every thing to last me to the end.but good luck to the rest of you.:coffee: :coffee:

[ddixie884]

The .41 colt was an out dated design that didn't make an easy transition to inside lubrication. the bad bullet to bore fit made it a lot less user friendly than other calibers, and yet even with its short comings, it was a pretty popular caliber. That just goes to show you that a caliber between the 36 and 43 is attractive to many people. I believe the .41 colt was the 4th in production numbers in the Colt SA, after the .45Colt, 44WCF, and 38WCF. Go figure.

[deltaenterprizes]

Floodgate--

It sounds like you guys invented the L-frame before S&W did. A 5-shot 686 in 41 or 44 Special seems do-able. Hopefully, it would be of steel construction without neon sights, and a 4" barrel would be nice.

It was done as a 696, I have one

[GLynn41]

I have been trimming .41 mag brass to 1.10 -- with loads from John taffin and rocky -- I have a .41 Tracker SS --and none of my molds cast anything to fit the little gun -- I now shoot shorts-- 225gr LFN 989fps very very low es- 212gr Keith Hp 1100 fps-- - or devestator Hp s it is fun and just what I want -- and that is what matters- if the .41 short or Magnum or one of my .41 wildcats does have what I want - then I would do as I have done before - skip the .44, special, or magnum and go to 454 and up ---and yes I have owned .44's and .45 colts and .454 - just stisfied with the .41// we will see a reason for us to do what we like so just go ahead and do what you like-- I have

[429421Cowboy]

I think it's funny how many guys were hoping for a small frame .44 or .41Spl sixgun in the first page of this thread. Makes ya wonder if somebody was paying attention?