.38 Special vs. .357 Magnum

[Jim_Fleming]

I had a rather educational experience today at the range...

I've loaded and shot quite a bit of .357, to the point that I _had_ become rather very well seasoned to shooting full house loads in the .357 Model 15V Dan Wesson I own...

To the point that I had begun to consider shooting .38's on the order of shooting .22 Rim Fire... I'm serious guys, I had begun to really consider .38's not worth bothering about... Almost in contempt, "Oh those are just lousy .38's rounds nothing worth bothering about..."

Anyway, I had some extra .38 cartridges that I'd loaded up for a special occasion, and the upshot is that I decided to empty the cartridges the fun way, at the range. No problem at all, I just couldn't hit anything... But that's not a surprise for me... lol!

As I was shooting them I kept wondering why the .38's seemed so loud, almost like .357 Ammo...

Finally I pulled out some full house .357's that I usually practice and train with, and by damn! Those crazy rounds are DANG POWERFUL! Whatta amazing difference!

I'd just gotten too accustomed to using .357 and too "familiar" with that family of cartridges to consider bothering with .38's...

I had a nice time at the range, and had some serious fun too... No problems and no real surprises other than what I just wrote about... Interesting...

[lwknight]

38s are fun in a full 357 magnum framed gun.
Always gotta end the day with a volley of full powered rounds though

[7of7]

you should run some through a model 94... the full power .357,... then some light 38's... OMG.. it is about like going to a 22....

[Jim_Fleming]

I've done that! 7 you just reminded me of that!

I used to use a '94 and you're exactly right, man that was a lot of fun!

I wonder if a '94 chambered for .44 Magnum would be about the same, except more powerful...? .44 Magnum then switch down to .44 Special...



you should run some through a model 94... the full power .357,... then some light 38's... OMG.. it is about like going to a 22....

[Bass Ackward]

As a former military man, I find that guns and history are inseparable.

This country was settled, formed, made, saved several times and built by cartridges and platforms that have less power than what we have available today. The object through all of that was to kill, and with divine help they gotter done.

I find that fact so remarkable that if I think in those terms, it becomes almost impossible to lose respect for something, no matter how loud the boom from what I have now.

[fecmech]

I seem to have come full circle on pistol cartridges. When I started reloading them in the late 60's my idea of working up a load was go to whatever had the most velocity for my bullet in the Lyman or Speer manual and start there! When I got my .44 mag I started at 22/2400 and then went to 25/296 with my 429421. I occasionally shoot the .44 now but not much and over the past few years my use of even "full house" .357's has declined. Now I mainly shoot 158 gr .38 spls out of my K-38 and lever guns and 185 grs out of my .45. Bedside gun still has 125 hp's @ 1500fps in it but that's about it. I seem to have lost interest in the flash & boom and now just want some noise and a little pushback and to be able to hit the target!

[mdi]

I've done that! 7 you just reminded me of that!

I used to use a '94 and you're exactly right, man that was a lot of fun!

I wonder if a '94 chambered for .44 Magnum would be about the same, except more powerful...? .44 Magnum then switch down to .44 Special...

Not 357 but;
Yep, I have a Puma '92 in .44 Mag and when I shoot .44 Specials in it, it's like shooting a BB gun. full patch .44 Magnums in the 20" barrel Puma are pleasant enough to shoot that 100 rounds goes pretty easily...

[awaveritt]

Just shot my first CAS match Saturday and a little .38 125gr RNFP boolit over 3.0 grs of Trail Boss is a heck of a lot of fun, in both a Ruger NMV and the Marlin 1894. I'll be loading a lot of those, I think. The full house loads have their place, especially in defense and hunting, but I love my mouse-fart loads and make no apologies for them.

[Jim_Fleming]

Bass, you're exactly right about being inseparable...

With regards to the .38 Special cartridge, I happen to recall some Military history about how it was being used in the Phillipine Islands against the Moros, (wild men/aborgines) and it wasn't effective enough... The GI's of the time were writing home for their .45 Colts... etc...

But again Bass, your *exactly* right Sir, about Military Actions regarding battles and wars involving cartridges that are pretty inferior to what we have today, comparatively speaking.

Bass, I genuinely respect the VERY gentle chiding you've given me. You're correct in that all Calibers of Ammunition need to be respected. That's a recipe for disaster, losing respect for a caliber. It was and is just a matter of the fact that I've cast boolits for, reloaded and fired so many thousands of rounds of .357 that I had begun to consider .38 as a big brother to .22 Rim Fire.

Thanks Brother Bass...

(Thread Hijack!) For what it's worth to everyone... I consider all of you Veterans, my Bretheren. But I think you all know that, and a majority of you feel the same way...


As a former military man, I find that guns and history are inseparable.

This country was settled, formed, made, saved several times and built by cartridges and platforms that have less power than what we have available today. The object through all of that was to kill, and with divine help they gotter done.

I find that fact so remarkable that if I think in those terms, it becomes almost impossible to lose respect for something, no matter how loud the boom from what I have now.

[Jim_Fleming]

I can't quite agree with you, Fecmech, but I respectfully disagree in that if I'm going to defend myself, I think that I need to practice with ammo that's just about exactly the equivalent of factory ammo, if not a tad 'stouter' than factory stuff.

Sure having the hole exactly where you put it, the FIRST time, is absolutely paramount, in that we both completely agree. But muscle memory requires training. I prefer, at this point in my shooting career, to use full power stuff. Not excessive, that's another issue altogether. I just like to use as near full pressure for caliber, as I can make it, and still be very accurate.





I seem to have come full circle on pistol cartridges. When I started reloading them in the late 60's my idea of working up a load was go to whatever had the most velocity for my bullet in the Lyman or Speer manual and start there! When I got my .44 mag I started at 22/2400 and then went to 25/296 with my 429421. I occasionally shoot the .44 now but not much and over the past few years my use of even "full house" .357's has declined. Now I mainly shoot 158 gr .38 spls out of my K-38 and lever guns and 185 grs out of my .45. Bedside gun still has 125 hp's @ 1500fps in it but that's about it. I seem to have lost interest in the flash & boom and now just want some noise and a little pushback and to be able to hit the target!

[mpmarty]

Blood sweat and tears shed in training prevents same in action.

[lwknight]

You will never see Jerry Miculek or Bob Munden shooting a 357 magnum but , I would bet a dollar to a donut that they can shoot it very well.

[DIRT Farmer]

If you shoot enough with the light loads, When there is a real need for the boomers you won't know the difference. The 38 spl v 357 is a perfect example. If you shoot thousands of 38s when you need the 357, I just rember on my gun 6 clicks up if I feel I need the sights.

[Jim_Fleming]

Well said, both of you Gents...

@lwknight I totally agree that you're highly unlikely to see full pressure/full power.357 Magnum used in High Level Competition, simply because of the longer recovery time between shots due to higher power/pressures.

(edited in for comprehensiveness) @lwknight: Please don't forget the Father of fast draw... Ed McGivern... Even Bob Munden has studied Ed McGivern.

@mpmarty, well said!

[XWrench3]

ahh, what is fun, is to let someone you know shoot your 357, with 5 -38 specials in it, and let him / her think that those are full loads. then, when the sixth comes around, have it be a full 357 load. the look on their face is priceless!

[whisler]

My son did that to his first wife. All I can say is it's a good thing the gun was then empty. Could explain why she is now his ex-wife.

[Ole]

I used to let my (recoil sensitive) dad shoot my 14" .357 Max contender stoked with mild .38 special loads at the range. I always knew he had more fun shooting that gun vs anything else I had because he'd always shoot it (single shot pistol) until all the ammo was gone.

:mrgreen:

[lwknight]

Here is a link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u97RJQYuiBA
to a little documentary from
NRA National Firearms Museum Curator's Corner
Regarding Ed McGivern

[JIMinPHX]

The only thing that I don't like about shooting 38's in a 357 is cleaning out the lead rings that they usually leave in the chambers. I've seen them get bad enough that they would prevent you from being able to load a .357 round.

[Cowboy T]

Proper cleaning of your firearm will eliminate that problem. I shoot light .38 Specials all the time in my .357 Magnum, and I have no problem loading .357M rounds.

Any round will kill, even .22LR. What matters is shot placement. I would not hesitate to use a .38 Special against a BG to defend myself or my loved ones. There's a very good reason it was called the "Police Special", let's not forget.

BTW, another good example of the OP's point is the .44 Special round. I was firing these out of a 7.5" barrel, Magnaported Redhawk. It felt like I was shooting nothing! Then I fired some Mag rounds. In that big, heavy Redhawk with the Pachmayr rubber grips, it wasn't so bad, but the difference was notable! However, I would have no problem with relying on the .44 Special round for self-defense. Same goes for .45 Colt. Again, shot placement is key.

[geargnasher]

I just load my fun .357s down to .38 Special velocities. No lead rings, better accuracy, reduced rifling skid, tons of fun, etc. etc.

I don't use or practice with that caliber for self-defense. I agree whole-heartedly with the philosophy of full-house practice with defensive weapons, assuming you are "in shape" and have mastered the shooting basics. For personal protection I defer to the 12-gauge pump shotgun, backed up by the 1911 platform in, what else, .45ACP.

If any of us shot nearly as much as exibition performers and world record holders do, we'd have medical issues from shooting maximum performance loads. Recoil injury can be slow to develop symptoms and tends to be cumulative.

And as to history, I would much rather have served in the .38 Spl revolver era than the 1860 Army era, but would rather have had a Walker than either if my life depended on one or two shots.

Gear

[ScottJ]

I just now made this discovery myself with .44 mag. I've always liked big boomers in it. I am sighted in for the Remington 210gr load they no longer make but I have a handload that matches it: 25.2 gr of 296.

Well, I traded here for a Lee TL 240gr SWC and after some experience with the TL design in 9MM decided I shouldn't push it as hard.

I happened to have some Trail Boss someone gave me I'd never used. Went with 6.6 grains.

In my 629 Classic they felt like .380 out of my Bersa. But still hit reasonably close to where my hot loads do. I also don't have to worry about exceeding the capabilities of my lube or fitment at that velocity. I like that.

[BD]

If you ever feel the need to remember what the .38 special is for, just borrow a 2" 14 oz J-frame and take a box of .357s to the range :)

BD

[beagle]

Well, it's obvious that people on this site like both the .38 Special and .357 Magnum.

The .38 Special was one of the first guns I started loading for (S & W M & P). Then dad got a M28 Smith and wow, what a difference as I was shooting Western 158 grain mags and that was a hot load. In fact, hot enough to flatten primers quite nicely.

Over the years, I've had a Python and various Smiths in .357. I enjoy shooting the .357 but have loads and loads of .38 Special cases so I went back and resurrected some of the old .38/44 loads for my .357s loaded in .38 Special cases. These are fired in my Rugers, my Python and my M1894 Marlin carbine and I find them just what I need for mass plinking loads loaded in quantity.

The old .38 Special loaded properly (around 1,000 FPS) in well made guns is one of the most pleasant and versatile loads around (insure they don't get in any of the older guns).

I feel that the ammo companies have done an injustice to this old veteran and I enjoy shooting it.

Ah, the old Phillipino controversy. We'll never learn and keep inventing the wheel in the military. When I was in, we carried old S & Ws and Colts and shot 130 grain ball. Not a great defensive load but better than throwing rocks. Then, we proceeded to shoot ourselves in the foot and adopt the 9mm. Now, I like the 9mm but would rather have a M1911A1.

But, I love to shoot the .357 and I love my high speed .38 loads. It gets more action than any of my other calibers./beagle

[Jim_Fleming]

JiminPHX you've got a point, but there too, Cowboy T has another point...

Since the advent of non-corrosive primers most of us shooters have been able to allow ourselves to become rather lazy about cleaning our firearms.

However the Military does instill in their Service Members a certain sort of knowledge that if you shoot a firearm, you darn well better clean it.

It's interesting to me that after going to the Range Sunday afternoon/evening I personally had five guns that needed cleaning. Guys I'm saying that I spent more time cleaning guns than I did shooting the darn thngs! Especially my AR-15! I swear that since I've been using Surplus Military Powder and my own Brass Jacketed bullets, that it seems like that combination creates a carbonized baked on ceramic coating in my bore!

However I'm getting off topic in my own thread, lol! Back to the point, I cleaned two .357's that had shot cast boolits, a Ruger GP-100 and a Dan Wesson Model V15. Both of them had the wee lead rings that Jim's mentioned, and this was with only a few dozen rounds in each of them...

Cowboy T, I sort of started to spout off and say that anybody that cares about their equipment is going to clean them same as yourself and myself. However... I am beginning now, to think that the average shooter, (most of them don't even know that you can shoot .38 in a .357) simply doesn't clean his guns or even have the cleaning equipment needed to remove those lead rings...

I guess it's a matter of how responsible each person feels for his guns and such...

Back in the days of corrosive primers, guns had to be cleaned within a few hours, otherwise the salts formed from shooting would attract moisture into the barrels and by morning those uncleaned guns would have rusty bores. In a few days the guns would be just about ruined, and in a few weeks, they'd be junk... So I've been told...

[Jim_Fleming]

Speaking of re-inventing the wheel...

Beagle, are you aware of the fact that there is a certain groundswell of the US Military that is considering returning to the .45 ACP cartridge as the standard GI round? Personally I'm darn well supportive of that compared to the 9mm!



Ah, the old Phillipino controversy. We'll never learn and keep inventing the wheel in the military. When I was in, we carried old S & Ws and Colts and shot 130 grain ball. Not a great defensive load but better than throwing rocks. Then, we proceeded to shoot ourselves in the foot and adopt the 9mm. Now, I like the 9mm but would rather have a M1911A1.

[lwknight]

I do eventually get around to cleaning everything real good but after a fun weekend my revolvers look like they were tied to the space shuttle during re-entry and I probably will take then back next week in the same condition. LOL.

[sundog]

This old soldier votes for the 45 acp as a service round.

[Bret4207]

I went through the "barrel burning/loudenboomer/if it ain't doing 4200fps it ain't moving" stage too. I developed a really impressive flinch that endures to this day. Now I'm beyond the provong I can take it stage and find things like the 32 S+W Long, 35 Rem, 308, 7x57, 44 Special to be much more pleasant. A '91 Argentine Mauser pushing a 220 gr boolit at 1600 fps is a pleasure. A 35 Whelen pushing a 250 gr boolit at 1500 is fun for the kids to shoot. A 25-20 poping an 85 gr fn out at 1200 fps is just fine by me. A 38 poping a 358477 at 900 fps or a 44 Special with a 429421 at 850 is just fun.

No shame in having fun instead of punishing yourself.

[JIMinPHX]

I wasn't saying that I don't clean my guns. I was just saying that getting the .38 rings out was a pain. I find that a bronze brush on the end of a cordless drill, followed by the same treatment with the addition of some lead-away cloth does a pretty good job. I too clean every gun after every time I shoot it. I believe in keeping all my equipment ready to go at all times, guns or otherwise.

I usually load down to .38 velocity in .357 cases when I want target loads for my .357, just to minimize my cleaning time.

I am also rather fold of a plain old .38. That classic is a good medium size choice for most medium size uses. A .38 & a .30-30, shooting lead boolits, can cover more than 3/4 of my shooting needs.

[lead-1]

I shot only .357 in my GP100 but had accumulated a lot of .38 stuff over the years so I bought a Taurus 4" .38 spl for the cheap. My son and I have a blast shooting it as plinker with cast boolits.

[StrawHat]

I thought the problem with the Moros was with the use of the 38 Colt cartridge, not the 38 Special.

Of course, the 30 Gov't also had a problem stopping the Moro's.

[Jim_Fleming]

Jim, that unfortunate inference was my fault, not yours.

Please excuse me for that, Sir...

Now that you mention it, what I have a question about is down loading .357 cases to .38 pressures. Do you and anyone else for that matter, find your accuracy AND precision along the same levels as you get in .38 cases?

Personally I don't have enough .38 cases to fairly make such a test. And what few dozens of cases I have are of mixed headstamp. Heck for that matter, now that I think about, my .357 brass is mostly mixed.

It's been a long time since I group tested my Dan Wesson, I guess I should segregate some cases and do just that in .357. Group test it I mean...

What's your pet load in a .30-30? Do you mind posting?




I wasn't saying that I don't clean my guns. I was just saying that getting the .38 rings out was a pain. I find that a bronze brush on the end of a cordless drill, followed by the same treatment with the addition of some lead-away cloth does a pretty good job. I too clean every gun after every time I shoot it. I believe in keeping all my equipment ready to go at all times, guns or otherwise.

I usually load down to .38 velocity in .357 cases when I want target loads for my .357, just to minimize my cleaning time.

I am also rather fold of a plain old .38. That classic is a good medium size choice for most medium size uses. A .38 & a .30-30, shooting lead boolits, can cover more than 3/4 of my shooting needs.

[Jim_Fleming]

StrawHat, according to your History Teacher, and Wikipedia, you're correct:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson-LaGarde_Tests

What are the specs for .38 Long Colt?



I thought the problem with the Moros was with the use of the 38 Colt cartridge, not the 38 Special.

Of course, the 30 Gov't also had a problem stopping the Moro's.

[JIMinPHX]

You didn't make any improper inferences Jim. I was just trying to clarify what I had said previously.

To answer your questions -

I don't notice any real difference in accuracy between .38 cases & .357 cases, but then, I'm not doing 100-yard bench rest shooting with my handguns. I can put them all within an inch or two at 50 feet while standing with no rest. That's all I look for out of a carry gun.

As for pet loads in the .30-30, I have 2. They both use the Lee 150-grain flat point. 8 grains of Unique is my plinker load @ around 1300fps. 28 grains of RE-7 gives me about 2300fps & better accuracy than factory ammo at that same speed. Work up to that second load carefully. It's a bit snappy. I have no signs of trouble with it in my gun, but it's scraping the limits of what you can do in that cartridge.

I find that 13bnh boolits with a gas check give me a good balance between accuracy & terminal performance in the .30-30. Water dropped boolits @ 23bnh are slightly more accurate, but do not expand at all when they impact game unless they hit a bone squarely. They will go right through a deer. You get a blood trail, but you will be doing some tracking. Even a groundhog that was drilled through his midsection & squirting blood out both sides of his body was able to run 30 yards & make it back down into his hole after getting hit with a hard one. I'll only hunt with the soft ones.

[Jim_Fleming]

You're exactly right here when you mention the 100 yard litmus test. That's where you'll separate the goats from the sheep... as it were... I'll have to give that a try, loading down a few .357 cases just for grins and giggles, but as I said, for me, I believe in and prefer using full house loads for target practice and training, etc... However I'm absolutely not adverse to making up several test loads.

Thanks Sir, for the good advice for using hard cast boolits for hunting. When I use my cast blue pills :confused: I'll have to make it a point to try and make the shots "one shot kills." I have a 14 inch Contender barrel in .357 and I also have a Super 14 barrel in .44 Magnum. A good head shot with either of them should do the trick, especially the .44 Mag.

The main thing about using the cast blue pills :confused: for hunting this way is making sure that what ever I do, the shots have to be CLEAN and HUMANE kills. I can't stand the thought of becoming a slob hunter and causing suffering that doesn't need to be created.

I've always been a bit interested in cast blue pills :confused: in rifles, but I didn't realize how the rounds were made up until I watched an Ammosmith Video that shows how Dacron is used as a filler.

Those boolits in 150 gr and other weights can be used in my .308 Winchester can't they...?


I don't notice any real difference in accuracy between .38 cases & .357 cases, but then, I'm not doing 100-yard bench rest shooting with my handguns.


As for pet loads in the .30-30, I have 2. They both use the Lee 150-grain flat point. 8 grains of Unique is my plinker load @ around 1300fps. 28 grains of RE-7 gives me about 2300fps & better accuracy than factory ammo at that same speed. Work up to that second load carefully. It's a bit snappy. I have no signs of trouble with it in my gun, but it's scraping the limits of what you can do in that cartridge.

I find that 13bnh boolits with a gas check give me a good balance between accuracy & terminal performance in the .30-30. Water dropped boolits @ 23bnh are slightly more accurate, but do not expand at all when they impact game unless they hit a bone squarely. They will go right through a deer. You get a blood trail, but you will be doing some tracking. Even a groundhog that was drilled through his midsection & squirting blood out both sides of his body was able to run 30 yards & make it back down into his hole after getting hit with a hard one. I'll only hunt with the soft ones.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

One thing I have found for cleaning the lead ring in the cylinder from shooting 38's in the mag, is take a 357 MAX case, and flare/bell it to just the chamber size, tap it lightly in with a wooden hammer with the cylinder out of the gun . . . scrapes it right out!

[Jim_Fleming]

Interesting!

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I shoot the 15-2 also... You may notice the cylinder is long for a 357 reveolver. Which means you can seat a 180 GC grainer out to the first grease groove and pick up alot more case capacity for powders like 296. That was the only boolit I found would take out the 200 meter rams reliably with a half way up hit.

[Cowboy T]

I'm fortunate in that the ".38 Special ring" in a .357M chamber is carbon instead of lead. Yep, my chambers and bore remain lead-free. This is, I believe, due to a good match-up of the bullet hardness to the load's pressure.

I have two loads for .38 Special. One is "mild", and the other is...well, "wild". :-) The mild load uses a 105gr LSWC (BHN 11) over a light charge of Bullseye. The wild load uses a 150gr LRNFP (BHN 15-16) over a healthy charge of 2400. Both are very precise and give me small groups, no matter which .357 Magnum revolver I've fired them in. No leading.

By contrast, I did have the "lead ring" issue with a S&W Model 629 when firing .44 Special. The ammo was store-bought and used hard lead bullets (BHN 18-19). At .44 Special pressures, there's not enough "oomph" to fully obturate such a hard bullet. Had to use a brass jag to scrape the lead rings out before .44 Mag rounds would chamber. Not fun. Reloading these cases with BHN 11 boolits eliminated that leading problem.

[Cowboy T]

I usually load down to .38 velocity in .357 cases when I want target loads for my .357, just to minimize my cleaning time.

I am also rather fold of a plain old .38. That classic is a good medium size choice for most medium size uses. A .38 & a .30-30, shooting lead boolits, can cover more than 3/4 of my shooting needs.

Like you, I'm very fond of both the .38 and .357M. That pair of cartridges is just...good...all around.

For the .357M cases, I have two loads. One is near to full-house, and the other feels a lot like .38 Spl +P. For the .38 Spl cases, I also have two loads, which I mentioned in my previous post. Whichever case happens to be more plentiful is the one I use, because both do a spectacular job.

BTW, my guns see nearly exclusively cast boolits. They're great, and they're very affordable to make.

:castmine:

[Jim_Fleming]

Good evening, Sir... (written about 9:30 Thursday evening)

And the first thing, I'd like to say is that _no_ this near sighted Old War Horse hadn't noticed that he could load LONG boolits in his DW MV15-6! Ugh! I have a Saeco 200 gr mould that I bought several years ago, and that I'd only used it in my Contender, right after I'd bought it.

However, now that you've made me aware of such a joyful thing, I'm going to be plunking 200 grain punkins at my sand filled bullet trap! Yes, I'll be very cautious about watching the OAL, and making sure to crimp VERY well, because heavy recoil and light roll crimps are not a good combination in revolvers.

Now that you've jogged my memory about that mould and the cast *heavy* blue :confused: pills that I fired from my Contender, (note: this was several years gone by now) the recoil seemed to be almost like a lightly loaded .44 Magnum recoil.

For the moment I don't have any 2400, but I do happen to have plenty of Herco and Blue Dot on hand... :bigsmyl2: Heehee, duz ya think I don't have wikked ideas in my mind...? :holysheep

Currently I've been working on making up a large batch of .223 for my Semi's, after that, I'm going to get started on some experiments... But there again this creates a quandary for me.

The boolit mould is made up for a 200 gr. Truncated Cone boolit. I can't imagine that this boolit would make a good hunting round. I'd be afraid that the darned thing'd just make a pin hole thru and that'd be wounded dying animal. I'll have to see what this does... but in the mean while it'll at least be fun running the heavy loads thru the Contender and milder stuff thru the Dan Wesson.

Opinions? All pertinent opinions are very welcome here.



Good morning
I shoot the 15-2 also... You may notice the cylinder is long for a 357 reveolver. Which means you can seat a 180 GC grainer out to the first grease groove and pick up alot more case capacity for powders like 296. That was the only boolit I found would take out the 200 meter rams reliably with a half way up hit.

[Jim_Fleming]

Same here, and for the same reasons. My most expensive parts of the ammo I'm making are the powder and primers.

Another thing I've seen is that my barrels shoot so much cast boolits, that to my way of thinking they get sort of "seasoned" to the cast stuff. Thereby making it easier to clean overall, and they also seem to resist leading better.

I've even been using cast boolits in my G22 stock barrel (yes, gasp! with the polygonal rifling) with near full pressure loads and I'm not having leading issues that don't easily clean out.

Cowboy, our cast blue :confused: pills, are only as good as the guy that's casting them. Personally I find my cast blue :confused: pills pretty d*mn good! LMBO! :cbpour:



BTW, my guns see nearly exclusively cast boolits. They're great, and they're very affordable to make.

:castmine:

[stephen perry]

Reloading pistol ammo has always been a satisfying chore. Straightwall cases go fast as far as case prep. I vibrate a couple hundred at a time 15 minutes and start running through my Star. I can do 200 boxed up in maybe 45 minutes less than an hour. Since I load for a couple old guys keeps me interested in my equipment. I usually use their powder sometime 231 other times Green Dot, makes no difference to me I have allot of powder bushings. For .38 bullets I generally go with 358 495, 358 87, and 358 156.

Reloading .357 is a slower proposition. I could use my Lyman turret but generally use my CH press, I don't load more than a couple boxes of .357 at a time. I have several thousand WW .38 brass for my own use but only a couple hundred .357 don't need any more. The .357 lets me use some of my heavier .358 Cast bullets like 358 432/160, 358 156, 358 429.

So, I have a Ruger .38/.357 TH TG. Nice gun trigger is heavy but it's not a K 38. Not the best of both worlds. If I wanted to shoot .357 allot I would go for a S&W 27, J frames are made for heavy loads and big enough to give the shooter some control over pocket rocket loads that some prefer.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Jim_Fleming]

Thanks Stephen for contributing, it's truly amazing, and I say this to all of you Folks that've pitched into this thread, it's truly amazing how much experience there is out there, giving away their knowledge and time with the only real gain is that of getting back what we've all given.

Knowledge and time.

You guys amaze me! Respectful, knowledgeable, intelligent, and experienced. All of you.

[StrawHat]

...What are the specs for .38 Long Colt?


125 gr (8.1 g) LRN 772 ft/s (235 m/s) 165 ft·lbf (224 J)
150 gr (9.7 g) LRN 777 ft/s (237 m/s) 201 ft·lbf (273 J)
Source: Hodgdon Online reloading data


The ballistics are similar to the 38 target load but use a round nosed bullet instead of the harder hitting wadcutter.

Theodore Roosevelt carried one for a while. As much as I admire him, I don't care for that choice.

[Jim_Fleming]

You're right StrawHat, it's pretty sedate, compared to the .357 or the .44 Magnum.

[evan price]

My first gun was a Colt .357 and for the longest time I looked at the 38 Special as that mildly retarded step-brother that the family never likes to talk about. The gun size for 38 Vs 357 was the same. Capacity was the same. Why bother buying a gun chambered only for 38 spl??? The bullet, powder and primer were the same, why bother loading 38 spls???

Since I am a brass rat and scrounger naturally I wound up accumulating a lot of 38 specials over the years and never got rid of them because 357 Mag brass was harder to find and I figured in the back of my head that if I ever got stuck I could load some of them up.

Well, gradually I built up a large stockpile of 38 cases. Then one day I was in a local gunstore and found a Colt Army Special in 38 Special. I remember quite clearly thinking that I had all those 38 special cases, and already had bullets and everything else, what the heck, why not? I admired the old styling of the gun and the price was right since it was in lousy cosmetic condition- $175.

So I loaded and shot and realized 38 Specials were cool in the right kind of gun.
That led to me finding out that "K"-frame S&Ws were cool, too. So I started buying them. I mean, I had the 38 specials already, right?

So in the end, I blame 38 special brass for my spending thousands of dollars on guns I didn't need but wound up loving to shoot. 38 Special is a fun caliber to shoot. I would say that over the past couple years and especially during the post-Obamanation election ammo-frenzy, I shot more 38 specials than any other caliber because they were fun, cheap, and I didn't have to crawl around chasing my brass. I cast more .357 bullets than any other caliber. I still enjoy 357 Magnum very much- and for much the same reasons- but 38 Special is just as cool, and maybe more, because I can shoot 500 38 specials in one day and not feel like my wrist is breaking apart.

[Jim_Fleming]

Evan, I, like you, did come to "re-respect" the .38 Special Cartridge, just in a different way.

You came to your epiphany through price, I came to mine buy shooting it in a .357 frame revolver.

It's not a cartridge loaded up on Nitrous Oxide, like .357... Let's just say it's more on the order of being loaded in 87 Octane... LOL! :Fire:

[JIMinPHX]

If you end up getting some 2400 powder to try in your revolver, you might want to give it a try in your .223 as well. I've found that 2400 is a pretty handy powder for cast in that caliber & some of the moderate .30 cal bottle-nose cases as well.

[Lloyd Smale]

Love the 38 but never had much use for a 357. I use mostly 1911s for self defense and my revolvers are usually hunting tools and to me for hunting anyway the 357 did provide enough power to justify having one. Ive allways considered it just a noisy 38.

[Jim_Fleming]

You've got a good point, Jim. I've used 2400 in both, but that was years ago. I do like 2400 under that 200 gr Saeco Cast :confused: Blue Pill that I alluded to earlier. Hehehe You don't want to know what I did with that combination in my .357 Barrel for my Contender... Let's just say, that the powder was VERY tightly compressed, when I got done, and man oh man did that rascal jump when I'd touch it off!

I'm going to highjack my own thread, and ask you for information, about using .224 diameter Cast :confused: Blue Pills... I don't have a mould for that, for starters, in either diameter, but I am interested in learning more, always interested in learning more! I realize that if you do give specific loads they have to be published somewhere, but I guess the real question is, "What's the point in loading down the calibers?" I know my real ignorance about cast boolits in rifle calibers is showing. So be it. I've NEVER done such a thing. PLEASE Sir, enlighten me.

I'm deadly earnest in wanting to know more... Besides, if things go well or sour, Cast :confused: Blue Pills could come in mighty damn handy in hard times...



If you end up getting some 2400 powder to try in your revolver, you might want to give it a try in your .223 as well. I've found that 2400 is a pretty handy powder for cast in that caliber & some of the moderate .30 cal bottle-nose cases as well.

[Jim_Fleming]

Good one Lloyd, in a way, and I DO NOT mean to insult anyone's intelligence, in a way you're exactly right. :-)

I'm not about to write a history lesson, I know that in this thread alone, there is literally hundreds of years more experience than I have.

However, you're quite correct sir, that's exactly what S&W did was beef up a .38 frame and super charge the cartridge, and called it .357 Magnum.



Love the 38 but never had much use for a 357. I use mostly 1911s for self defense and my revolvers are usually hunting tools and to me for hunting anyway the 357 did provide enough power to justify having one. Ive allways considered it just a noisy 38.

[hpdrifter]

I had a rather educational experience today at the range...

I've loaded and shot quite a bit of .357, to the point that I _had_ become rather very well seasoned to shooting full house loads in the .357 Model 15V Dan Wesson I own...

To the point that I had begun to consider shooting .38's on the order of shooting .22 Rim Fire... I'm serious guys, I had begun to really consider .38's not worth bothering about... Almost in contempt, "Oh those are just lousy .38's rounds nothing worth bothering about..."

Anyway, I had some extra .38 cartridges that I'd loaded up for a special occasion, and the upshot is that I decided to empty the cartridges the fun way, at the range. No problem at all, I just couldn't hit anything... But that's not a surprise for me... lol!

As I was shooting them I kept wondering why the .38's seemed so loud, almost like .357 Ammo...

Finally I pulled out some full house .357's that I usually practice and train with, and by damn! Those crazy rounds are DANG POWERFUL! Whatta amazing difference!

I'd just gotten too accustomed to using .357 and too "familiar" with that family of cartridges to consider bothering with .38's...

I had a nice time at the range, and had some serious fun too... No problems and no real surprises other than what I just wrote about... Interesting...

The one good thing about a 357 mag is that if you happe to miss, the concusion will probably knock the BG down and the noise will make his ears bleed. The muzzle flash will make him think he saw god.

[Jim_Fleming]

@ JIMinPHX, never mind me, Sir, I'm going to admit that I was and am trying to keep my thread going. And I shouldn't have brazenly and foolishly asked you or anyone to answer newcomer questions. No one has chastized me about the below paragraph, it's just that I got to thinking about it, and by damn I catch myself ignoring newcomer questions, and don't I go and ask a newcomer question about reduced loads! :violin: Newcomers please don't think I have it in for you, I don't. I know that not very long ago, I was a newcomer on this board. I have a few hundred posts as opposed to some folks on here that have literally THOUSANDS of posts.

Anyway, I know some of the advantages of reduced loads, reduced recoil, muzzle blast, sometimes improved accuracy, less cost in powder, etc... The list goes on, it's just that I never spent the money or the time to learn or evey pay attention.

Thanks for putting up with me... Guys...




I'm going to highjack my own thread, and ask you for information, about using .224 diameter Cast :confused: Blue Pills... I don't have a mould for that, for starters, in either diameter, but I am interested in learning more, always interested in learning more! I realize that if you do give specific loads they have to be published somewhere, but I guess the real question is, "What's the point in loading down the calibers?" I know my real ignorance about cast boolits in rifle calibers is showing. So be it. I've NEVER done such a thing. PLEASE Sir, enlighten me.

[Doc Holliday13]

The one good thing about a 357 mag is that if you happe to miss, the concusion will probably knock the BG down and the noise will make his ears bleed. The muzzle flash will make him think he saw god.

I've been loving muzzle blast lately, but only in shotgun.. gotta find something in between red dot and blue dot that gives me muzzle blast and velocity hahaha.

I found that. H110 gave me a fantastic blast in 357 but not the velocity I was expecting :-(

[Jim_Fleming]

Doc, I've gotten quite a fireball from using Herco...

What about using WW296? That stuff lights up like a Nuke, when you touch it off, at least it used to...

[lwknight]

I found that. H110 gave me a fantastic blast in 357 but not the velocity I was expecting
You didn't pack enough powder in the case.
You can make the powder touch the base of the bullet with 110/296
My best was 1475 with 158 grain bullets and 17.5 grains powder and magnum primer with a 6" barrel.
Same load hit 2K in a rifle.

[JIMinPHX]

"What's the point in loading down the calibers?" I know my real ignorance about cast boolits in rifle calibers is showing. So be it. I've NEVER done such a thing. PLEASE Sir, enlighten me.

I'm deadly earnest in wanting to know more... Besides, if things go well or sour, Cast :confused: Blue Pills could come in mighty damn handy in hard times...

I normally buy a gun 1 caliber size more powerful than I think I need & load it down a little. That way, I have room to move back up in my loading if I need it, without buying another gun. I tend to be a bit on the cheap side that way. I like 1 gun to cover a lot of territory.

2400 is a good plinking to mid-range powder in the .223 with cast boolits. It's especially good, if you already have it & don't need to go out & buy another type of powder to put on the shelf. (There's the cheap thing again). I get very good accuracy around 2,000fps & sort of OK accuracy around 2300fps using 13bnh gas checked boolits. If I went with a harder alloy,I could probably push the speed up a little & tighten up the groups, but I mostly use these things to hunt small game & the softer alloy gives better terminal performance. The Lee Bator was the easiest boolit to get to shoot well for me, but the Lyman 225415 also worked well once I got it seated far enough out to touch the lands. A 3/32" diameter HP in the 225415 makes them real quick stoppers on coyotes.

By the way, what is the "blue pill" that you keep talking about? ******? Or is that just another pet name for lead that I just haven't caught on to yet?

[fecmech]

I've been loving muzzle blast lately, but only in shotgun.. gotta find something in between red dot and blue dot that gives me muzzle blast and velocity hahaha.

I found that. H110 gave me a fantastic blast in 357 but not the velocity I was expecting :-(

If you want muzzle blast and velocity in a shotgun Hogdon Longshot is your powder. It's about the loudest powder I've ever heard in a shotgun. Put a 20 ga loaded with Longshot next to a guy with a Cutts Compensator on his 12 ga and the 20 will make the Cutts sound tame!

[Jim_Fleming]

This makes sense, that is to make your hard earned dollars as versatile as they possibly can be.


I normally buy a gun 1 caliber size more powerful than I think I need & load it down a little. That way, I have room to move back up in my loading if I need it, without buying another gun. I tend to be a bit on the cheap side that way. I like 1 gun to cover a lot of territory.

Regarding the use of on the shelf powders: Again, I don't quite, (respectfully) that it's cheapness as it is being thrifty! (I'm Scotch/Irish by ethnicity and upbringing,) so you can tell it's the Irishman in me telling the Scotchman that he's not a tight wad! :groner: LOL!


2400 is a good plinking to mid-range powder in the .223 with cast boolits. It's especially good, if you already have it & don't need to go out & buy another type of powder to put on the shelf. (There's the cheap thing again). I get very good accuracy around 2,000fps & sort of OK accuracy around 2300fps using 13bnh gas checked boolits. If I went with a harder alloy,I could probably push the speed up a little & tighten up the groups, but I mostly use these things to hunt small game & the softer alloy gives better terminal performance. The Lee Bator was the easiest boolit to get to shoot well for me, but the Lyman 225415 also worked well once I got it seated far enough out to touch the lands. A 3/32" diameter HP in the 225415 makes them real quick stoppers on coyotes.


Years ago, someone asked me to load them up some real BLUE pills. I. E. Hotloads, or as you and I would call them over pressure loads. I didn't load the ammo the guy _thought_ he wanted, but I did keep the nickname for Cast Boolit loads. 'Course too, now that I'm getting on in years, the ****** thought isn't too far fetched... ;) Only problem is that my warned me that if I bought into them Blue Pills it would either kill her or make her divorce me! ;) :groner:


By the way, what is the "blue pill" that you keep talking about? ******? Or is that just another pet name for lead that I just haven't caught on to yet?

[JesterGrin_1]

Since you brought the Blue Pill up I have a true funny story for you. :)

I was at the urologist with my Father in the waiting room and a woman walked in that looked like she was on a mission. She walked up to the Receptionist window and asked to see the Dr NOW lol. Then she walked in the door and the Dr met her and everyone in the waiting room could hear her lol. She said Dr my Husband came in the other day because he was having some problems and the Dr said yes and I gave him a prescription that should have helped. And the lady said look I just wanted my husband to be able to have sex again not start a damn forest fire lol.

[Jim_Fleming]

hmmmm, I guess I did bring up that subject...

[9.3X62AL]

I cannot recall a time since 1976 that there wasn't at least one each of 38 Special and 357 Magnum revolvers on board. It didn't take long for the Lee Loader to get old, and I was refilling my empties on Leo Reyes' Reloader Special single-stage as he looked on and coached. By 1979 I had my own RS press, dies, and off I went. The 38 Special and 357 Magnum launched my reloading hobby, and I imagine many here can make similar claims.

Both calibers are just so useful, accurate, practical, and user-friendly that it's no wonder they are so popular.

[.357]

I carry a small j frame .38 + p all the time when i'm not at work. I plink with light 38 loads (75 grain wadcutter) However I <3 my full house raise the roof .357 195 grain SWC loads with some H110. I enjoy both calibers equally but for totally different reasons, and thier totally different uses.

[Dale53]

>>>Again, shot placement is key. <<<

Bullet shape has a lot to do with how long it takes for the proper placed shot to take effect, make NO mistake about that. The major problem with the .38 Special is that the round nosed bullet had poor terminal ballistics. On the other hand, the +P, FBI load has very little more "power" but the hollow point bullet is MUCH more effective. Our police officers and our fine soldiers in the Phillipines were saddled with a very poor shaped bullet (and it was NOT the .38 Special but the even LESS effective .38 Colt that was the round involved). The .38 Special was developed expressively BECAUSE the .38 Colt did such a poor job. Unfortunately, they pretty much kept the same sorry bullet...

FWIW
Dale53

[Jim_Fleming]

I can't recall for sure what caliber I was mentored on when I started reloading. I do think it was for my .270, and I'm even more certain that it was a bottle neck cartridge.

But I do recall that when I started reloading for .357/.38 I fell in love with how easy they were to reload for.



I cannot recall a time since 1976 that there wasn't at least one each of 38 Special and 357 Magnum revolvers on board. It didn't take long for the Lee Loader to get old, and I was refilling my empties on Leo Reyes' Reloader Special single-stage as he looked on and coached. By 1979 I had my own RS press, dies, and off I went. The 38 Special and 357 Magnum launched my reloading hobby, and I imagine many here can make similar claims.

Both calibers are just so useful, accurate, practical, and user-friendly that it's no wonder they are so popular.

[Jim_Fleming]

@ Dale53 and .357, both of you gents have good points, and Dale53 you're exactly right, earlier in this thread, someone made that exact same point about the Moros and the .38 Long Colt. I didn't know that. I had assumed it was the .38 Special. Wikipedia confirmed that I was incorrect. Wow! Is all I can say about how much experience we all get to benefit from on this Board.

@ .357 Do you cast those lightweight wadcutters or do you swage them? Lightweight blue :confused: pills like that should be pretty darned fast coming out of a .38 Special casing....