Another Anti-gun Restaurant

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Yesterday we went to town (Tucson) as apparently I had promised to take my wife out to lunch at this healthy restaurant that she had found on line . . . I still don't remember the conversation, even though she showed me the map I printed for her . . . anyways . . . I do a little research and found a comment on google about them not allowing guns . . .

We left yesterday late morning to make the 80 mile trek to town . . . my wife also has a stamping up party to go to at 1:00, and then I'm gonna get the grocery shopping done while she is playing with her crafts . . . So at 11:00 I call Chipotle Mexican Grill http://www.chipotle.com/en-US/Default.aspx?type=default and asked them directly "Do you allow guns in your restaurant?" He says "well we do have a policy that says no guns, and a sign by the door which also says no guns, but . . . we don't enforce it, we would be happy to have you come" I ask him if he is aware that 50% of Arizonians are gun owners, no response . . . I tell him that if I walk in there with my gun I would be breaking the law, even if I did not get caught . . . and that we would be supporting a different restaurant that is not anti-gun!

I dropped off my wife and went straight to Sportsman's Warehouse! :mrgreen: Primers were still high at $35.99 per 1000 pistol . . . but I found lead shot had come down to $31.99 for 25 pounds! The only casting stuff they had was a pot, ladle and ingot mould. They really need to get with the program! Every time I go in there I always ask for something casting related, maybe if everybody asks, they will see a need and carry more stuff!

I did buy a nice pair of game shears, now I just need to make a leather sheath for it!

Oh and then I stopped and picked up some groceries!

[HeavyMetal]

When I was younger I was much more of a butthead than I am today and would buck a "stacked deck" at the drop of a hat.

In this case I would have gone in anyway, provided I had a Concealed permit, as it isn't a state law it's a company policy, and let things happen if they did at all.

After all I would be "legal" all they could do is ask me to leave!

Today I realize that the morons that make policy decisions are always going to be morons and will never change how they think no matter what I do.

So the best tool you can use against these morons is your wallet!

By deed, word of mouth, and simply taking your business else where you do damage to thier "bottom line" and, in the end, this is the most effective thing each of us can do.

An e mail to corperate might actually get seen, but I doubt it, as so many "executives" simply "flush " both voice mail and e mail as the first duty of the day so they aren't "disturbed" during meetings.

I once thought of printing a list of companies owned by anti gun people. sadly corperations like Pepsi are world wide and own so much a simple list would require a truck to carry around!

So let me finish by saying: I think you did the right thing.

[RayinNH]

The "healthy restaurant" should have been a tip off. You want a place that serves big slabs of red meat and beer...Ray

[mold maker]

Two local eateries removed the no weapon signs, after I insisted that they give me a written statement accepting the responsibility for our safety while in their establishment.
I explained that in depriving me of a right to self protection, they in effect were guaranteeing that they would provide it.
I'm now helping one of the managers to learn gun safety and shooting.

[Trey45]

When I lived in Virginia and had a CCW there I carried everywhere, if the restaraunt had a sign on the door that said no firearms, I simply ignored it, most times I avoided patronising establishments with anti gun policies.. I did get a good laugh out of a post it note someone put under a no guns sign, it said, Dear Mugger, our patrons are disarmed for your convenience.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I prefer not to carry discreetly (some call it concealed, but most people associated concealed with hiding something, and if your hiding something that automatically means it must be bad!) I normally carry IWB with a dark shirt so that the grip of my Alaskan blends in . . . here in the great state of Arizona we don't need a CCW, even though I have one, however if a owner of a private property asks you to leave your gun, then by law we have too, and a sign is the same as verbally asking . . . so if another patron saw my gun, they could call the law, and I could get in trouble, or they just may ask me to leave . . . us gun owners need to provide as little ammo to the anti gunners . . . I chose to just spend my dollars elsewhere . . . actually at Sweet Tomato's an all you can eat salad bar! We love that place, if they ever decide to go "no gun" then I may try the written statement of their excepting responsibility for my safety . . .

[Charley]

Six locations here in town. Their food sucks bigtime, I wouldn't eat there if they offered free amunition! Plenty of REAL Mexican/Tejano eateries around, with no need for bad food or political correctness. Vote with your dollars.

[cowboy]

Howdy from the Valley of the ( well. soggy last night) Sun.
IF anyone still goes to Outback Steak House, a chain that really should know better in tough times than to turn away paying customers, they also have plainly displayed a No Firearms sign at their "host/hostess" lectern ( Bell rd around 57th ave). Nearly directly across Bell Rd, the Lonestar Steakhouse, less expensive, and no such posting, enjoys our business as we enjoy their wares and service.
Jus' sayin'.:-P

P.S. wonder if Outback would have trouble with a machete?

[fatelk]

I had a discussion with a friend recently, who is a manager at a local pizza place. He is not anti-gun at all, but they do have a no-guns sign posted at each of their several restaurants.

He said that he is not anti gun, but it is a family restaurant so people shouldn't be bringing their guns in, and he's actually asked a couple people to leave because their guns were showing.

I mentioned that concealed-carry permit holders are statistically very safe, reliable people, and that those carrying illegally are just going to ignore the sign. He still thought it was a good policy, but didn't seem quite as sure about it.

It seems that most stores and restaurants around here are posted.

[thx997303]

Your friend IS anti gun by posting the signs in my opinion Fatelk. Actions are much more reliable gauges of ones position than words.

Either you support the second amendment or you don't. You can't have it both ways.

Seems to me that these businesses are taking a very damaging course by posting anything at all.

Deferring to state law is THE BEST stance a business can take. This way they directly offend no one person or group. This means not donating money to any group as well.

I honestly love when a business directly supports my rights, however it is NOT the best for the business.

Perhaps you can suggest such a course to your friend?

[Randy in Arizona]

The wife and offspring went to one of them one evening, brought me a burrito for my lunch at work. (2nd shift)
Got about 3/4s of the way through it found a 5" long hair. :x:oops:
I told SWMBO about it, she called the manager, they said we could come back in for a complementary meal as an apology.
We haven't been back so far. (2 months)


47

[Wayne Smith]

I'll be the third to say that you missed an overpriced, underquality meal. Been to one of those once, don't plan to go back, and no, there was no "No guns" sign at the one where we ate. I just spent too much time in Southern California and know good Mexican food. That wasn't.

[spqrzilla]

For those reading the thread, be aware that whether or not a "No Firearms" sign is legally enforceable ( ie., carrying concealed with a permit into a premises with such a sing is a crime ) varies from state to state.

In some states, the sign is meaningless to the extent that if you violate it you are merely citable for trespassing, and in others, you are in criminal violation of the concealed carry statutes.

[9.3X62AL]

These threads are an interesting cross-section of views concerning right-to-carry and corporate responses to that right.

One thing that gets a little lost in the shuffle is this--our Second Amendment RIGHTS are exactly that--CIVIL RIGHTS. The signs posted in restaurants differ little from the signs posted in the Deep South that pointed out "Colored" restrooms and drinking fountains.

With that in mind......isn't a person carrying their means of self-protection into a "posted" location little different than Rosa Parks? Isn't he/she simply asserting a civil right guaranteed by our Constitution?

We need to put the haters of liberty--which is a succinct description of the hoplophobic liberal morons that cause us the most grief on the gun rights questions--DEEPLY on the defensive. We do that by emphasizing that gun ownership and by logical extension their personal possession for self-protection as a CIVIL RIGHT. THAT is the tack that NRA and GOA must take in order to gain initiative and momentum.

[wills]

I prefer not to carry discreetly (some call it concealed, but most people associated concealed with hiding something, and if your hiding something that automatically means it must be bad!) . . .

So, will you be posting all your credit card numbers on the internet?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

So, will you be posting all your credit card numbers on the internet?

No, I'm discreet about those numbers . . . just like I have the right to be discreet about if I have a gun . . . I normally prefer semi-open carry, meaning part of the gun/holster is showing, makes for easier draw, and helps others see that real people do have guns, but it is not an "in your face" type thing. (Some people call it "tasteful carry")

My point was that so many people in today society think that if you say your hiding (concealing) something, that it must be bad, I'm not saying that it is, just that it can be perceived as bad.

Alan Korwin of the GunLaws.com & Bloomfield Press writes in part:

Now that Arizona has broken ground with its new no-permit-needed Freedom To Carry law (effective 7/29/10, also called Constitutional Carry), efforts are underway to deny anti-rights bigots an upper hand in the battle of words that frames so many civil rights debates.

"Concealed carry," the term government prefers, implies you have something to hide," said numerous long-time permit holders. "Now that Arizona has normalized the right to keep and bear arms, it makes much more sense to always refer to discreet carry as discreet carry. Nothing requires you to be a showboat in your ownership or possession of any private property unless you want to be."

Writer and friend Don Kline insightfully notes that, "One thing I make a point of when discussing discreet carry is the fact that traditionally, and as a doctrine of law, tyrants would like us to forget we have a right to exercise our rights PRIVATELY. Being forced to carry openly if we carry at all is not only a violation of our right to bear arms, it is a violation of our right to privacy."

This point has been made in The Arizona Gun Owner's Guide for years, which noted that no-option open carry, despite its romantic appeal, is actually a reduction of your rights and makes it inconvenient to bear arms in many situations (p. 54).

"Paul Helmke and his ilk like to advance the theory that people have a right to know if someone around them is armed. They don't. They are already on notice that someone around them may be armed -- the Second Amendment and the Arizona Constitution places them on notice," Cline accurately observes. Helmke (leader of the Brady group) is merely posturing of course, and together with his scant membership hates knowing anyone has a firearm.

Taken from here: http://www.gunlaws.com/Page9Folder/PageNine-85.htm

[shootinxd]

I would just turn around and leave.I want to feel wanted.

[softpoint]

Here in Texas, we only have concealed carry as of now. While I am certainly not opposed to open carry, I have given this a lot of thought. I really believe that concealed carry has the most general advantages. True, a would be robber may be discouraged by the sight of an openly carried weapon, or , he may try to gun down the person carrying openly as first order.
Open carry could possibly result in being targeted FOR your weapon. Since you can't know a person's intentions, and certainly can't shoot anyone before you actually see a weapon, this can be a disadvantage. Knowing the area you will be in, how much gang activity there is, all can play a part in carry options. The one advantage to open carry is that normally the weapon can be deployed much faster.
In Texas, unless there is an officially worded sign with the penal code section in prefix, the sign can be ignored. A picture of a handgun with a line through it doesn't prohibit you from carrying in that place..

[nes4ever69]

stay out of lawrence, ks. every buisness has a no guns alowed sign posted.

i had fun one time when my buddy took me with him to Ku, that day someone brought a gun on campus and everyone freaked out. i told some people that it was impossible for a gun to be brought on campus due to that fact thats its a gun free zone and know way a gun could be brought in a gun free zone. as you can tell i had my fun back fireing the gun free zone.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Howdy!

I decided to write corporate and here is the reply:

Shawn,

Thank you for writing us, and we certainly understand and appreciate your stance, and we also thank you for communicating your position on this matter to us. And definitely we have no desire to offend you or your friends or family, since that is not our intention. And we hope we can continue to respectfully agree to disagree on this issue. We are happy to serve you and your family at any time, but we would please ask that you not bring your weapon into our restaurants. If you change your mind in this regard, we'll be happy to serve you.

We do hope you will continue to visit us.
Sincerely,

Pat

Pat Kelly | Marketing Consultant

Chipotle Mexican Grill



From: Shawn (shawn . . .@gmail.com)
Phone Number: 520.xxx.xxxx
Store Visited: Park Place Mall (Tuscon, AZ)
Date Visited: 08/21/2010 11:15 AM

Hello, I'm writing to you today to find out if it is your corporate decision to ban guns in your restaurants, or is that an individual locations decision?

I was going to take my wife in to eat, but there is a sign that says "No guns" I have a right as a citizen to defend myself, and choose to have a gun for that purpose, a private property owner has the right to prohibit certain things on there property, I chose to go to a different restaurant.

Did you know that 50% of Arizonians are gun owners?

If it is not a corporate decision, then I will try to see if there is another location I could try your restaurant, otherwise I will continue to patronize places where my right is not restricted.

So there it is! I won't be going there! Lots of other places to eat out if I should choose!

[smilie=s:

[82nd airborne]

We had a guy in NC that was open carrying in a checkout line. Some guy jerked the gun out of its holser and took off. Im definately not opposed to open carry, but one must certainly be careful of swipers.

[OutHuntn84]

When I have the time I love shopping around and anti-gun esablishments! I will kindly disarm go in and shop, order, brouse and when I get to the register after they ring it up, I ask for a manager. I then point out their sign and how much I was willing to pay (usualy with money in hand so they know I'm serious) and explain to them that they will not be getting any of my money until they decide to change their policy.

[30CAL-TEXAN]

Although a simple "no guns" sign is not enforceable with the concealed carry laws here in Texas it is still enforceable in criminal trespass law. That said, I would rather be guilty of criminal trespass than dead but it is still probably the best practice to take you money somewhere else and it is you duty as a gun owner to be a vocal about that decision that you possibly can.

That's my $0.02

[sqlbullet]

These threads are an interesting cross-section of views concerning right-to-carry and corporate responses to that right.

One thing that gets a little lost in the shuffle is this--our Second Amendment RIGHTS are exactly that--CIVIL RIGHTS. The signs posted in restaurants differ little from the signs posted in the Deep South that pointed out "Colored" restrooms and drinking fountains.

With that in mind......isn't a person carrying their means of self-protection into a "posted" location little different than Rosa Parks? Isn't he/she simply asserting a civil right guaranteed by our Constitution?

We need to put the haters of liberty--which is a succinct description of the hoplophobic liberal morons that cause us the most grief on the gun rights questions--DEEPLY on the defensive. We do that by emphasizing that gun ownership and by logical extension their personal possession for self-protection as a CIVIL RIGHT. THAT is the tack that NRA and GOA must take in order to gain initiative and momentum.

I agree with this, to a point. Rosa Parks was riding a bus owned by the government.

The establishments in this thread are privately help.

I personally believe that my rights end where the property owners begin. I don't have to go on his property.

However, since the property owner has denied me my ability to provide for my own defense, he has a liability should I be harmed by the criminal actions of another. At present that is generally asserted in such a way as to place possession of arms in a negative light. The attorney advises the property owner that by denying all arms, they are to some degree indemnified if a perpetrator violates the policy and causes harm to other patrons.

Imagine how fast those policies would change if the property owner were liable for you harm because they had denied you the tools of defense, rather than being indemnified for doing so?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

We had a guy in NC that was open carrying in a checkout line. Some guy jerked the gun out of its holser and took off. Im definately not opposed to open carry, but one must certainly be careful of swipers.

Certianly, that is why I don't let people get too close to me, if they do approach, but do not apear to be threating my life, I just cover the butt of my gun with my elbow . . . always being aware of the suroundings makes this easier, look people in the eye when they aproach . . .

[Doby45]

As a former LEO, I do not have any desire in letting someone know I am armed. You make yourself a target when you parade about with your "sweet piece" showing. Concealed carry does away with 95% of the discussion going on here. It is not ILLEGAL to carry into a restaurant simply because they have a sign that says you can't. But, if you decided to open carry and the restaurant says you need take your weapon outside, then you get to decide if you simply want to go and put your weapon out in the car or do you want to take your body along with your weapon. Tresspassing is an enforceable law, carrying your piece in someones shop or restaurant isn't. I think a lot of people open carry for two reasons, either you can't get a CCW (for whatever reason) or you like to be the center of attention. You WANT the little kids pointing and asking mommy and daddy why you have a weapon on. I still carry concealed every single day and I NEVER get asked about my weapon, ever.

[9.3X62AL]

Good point as to Ms. Parks and the city bus. Those "Colored" signs for washrooms, drinking fountains, restaurant seating, hotel admittance, ad nauseum were overwhelmingly a private property matter. I find both forms of signage discriminatory and demeaning, but that is just me.

[sqlbullet]

In the vein of protecting my somewhat shady name, I must clarify.

I concur that the signage was and is offensive in the extreme. I hope to eliminate bigotry and racism from my personal conduct completely.

But, I also support the rights of a private property owner to be a racist and bigot. I will not support them with my wallet if it can be avoided.

[felix]

I am glad you CCW guys are around, so you can be an acting extension of the local LEOs. I will not knowingly visit any location where I think I have to be armed to do business of any sort. I have lived in suspected areas when the rent factor was the lessor of two evils, and had been approached twice while there. Once he/she/it broke into my room and stole my pants with a billfold in it. The next time another he/she/it slid open a window for entry and he was violently met with a baseball bat across the chest. He was knocked out for about 10 minutes, and when he/she/it awoke the thing ran like a jack rabbit. No phone calls, no cops, no nothin'. I am sure the person/animal considered itself lucky to be alive. ... felix

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Doby45, what you quote may be the law in your area of operation, but out here a sign is the same as asking, if you willfully choose to disobey you get in trouble . . . same as I said in post #6.

I choose to not break the law, even if I don't get caught! We are still working on changing some of our crazy laws . . . until then I just don't support places that require me to go unarmed, even gunshows . . . !

ETA:
13-3102-A10 http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/03102.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS
13-3102. Misconduct involving weapons; defenses; classification; definitions
A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:
10. Unless specifically authorized by law, entering any public establishment or attending any public event and carrying a deadly weapon on his person after a reasonable request by the operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event or the sponsor's agent to remove his weapon and place it in the custody of the operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event for temporary and secure storage of the weapon pursuant to section 13-3102.01;

And specifically for restaurants that serve alcohol:
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1102p.pdf
Be it enacted by the Legislature of the State of Arizona:
Section 1. Section 4-229, Arizona Revised Statutes, is amended to read:
4-229. Licenses; handguns; posting of notice
A. A person with a permit issued pursuant to section 13-3112 or who
meets the criteria specified in section 13-3102, subsection D, paragraph 1
or 2 may carry a concealed handgun on the premises of a licensee who is an
on-sale retailer unless the licensee posts a sign that clearly prohibits the
possession of weapons on the licensed premises. The sign shall conform to
the following requirements:

[lwknight]

Agree , The proprietor has the right to be a douche bag.
We have the right to not patronize their businesses.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

As a former LEO, I do not have any desire in letting someone know I am armed.

I've been think about this most of the afternoon . . . Thank you!

I do have a plastic permission slip to carry discreetly . . . which is reciprocal with other states . . .

[Doby45]

Either way Diesel, you stay armed... They need more folks like you in AZ. Things are getting more crazy there every day..

[mike in co]

Yesterday we went to town (Tucson) as apparently I had promised to take my wife out to lunch at this healthy restaurant that she had found on line . . . I still don't remember the conversation, even though she showed me the map I printed for her . . . anyways . . . I do a little research and found a comment on google about them not allowing guns . . .

We left yesterday late morning to make the 80 mile trek to town . . . my wife also has a stamping up party to go to at 1:00, and then I'm gonna get the grocery shopping done while she is playing with her crafts . . . So at 11:00 I call Chipotle Mexican Grill http://www.chipotle.com/en-US/Default.aspx?type=default and asked them directly "Do you allow guns in your restaurant?" He says "well we do have a policy that says no guns, and a sign by the door which also says no guns, but . . . we don't enforce it, we would be happy to have you come" I ask him if he is aware that 50% of Arizonians are gun owners, no response . . . I tell him that if I walk in there with my gun I would be breaking the law, even if I did not get caught . . . and that we would be supporting a different restaurant that is not anti-gun!

I dropped off my wife and went straight to Sportsman's Warehouse! :mrgreen: Primers were still high at $35.99 per 1000 pistol . . . but I found lead shot had come down to $31.99 for 25 pounds! The only casting stuff they had was a pot, ladle and ingot mould. They really need to get with the program! Every time I go in there I always ask for something casting related, maybe if everybody asks, they will see a need and carry more stuff!

I did buy a nice pair of game shears, now I just need to make a leather sheath for it!

Oh and then I stopped and picked up some groceries!

chipotle is not a mexican grill..it is not a health food store, and IS OWNED BY MCDONALS.....

mike in co

[Recluse]

stay out of lawrence, ks. every buisness has a no guns alowed sign posted.

Nearly every state seems to have its own "Berkeley" ( as in Berzerkely, California) somewhere within its borders.

In Texas, we have Austin.

North Carolina has Chapel Hill.

In Kansas, they have Lawrence.

Oklahoma has Tulsa.

Missouri has Columbia.

Nebraska has Omaha.

New Mexico has Sante Fe.

Colorado has Boulder.

Wisconsin has Madison.

Massachusetts has Massachusetts.

Etc.

:coffee:

[Recluse]

Only folks we see eating at Chipotle's down here in Texas are yankees and yuppies, so we figure they all deserve each other.

The restaurant is 100% corporate-owned, so no blaming policies on franchisees. Founder is from Colorado who "grew up" business-wise in San Francisco and was educated in New York City.

I'll probably send them a note telling them they'll get no business from us, but we've never set foot in one of the restaurants. Again, the only people that I hear say anything good about them are yankees and yuppies, and no way in hell do I need to spend anymore time around either one of them than I possibly have to.

Way too much good locally owned Mexican food establishments down here--some of which you NEED to have a gun with you when you eat there.

:coffee:

[jcwit]

chipotle is not a mexican grill..it is not a health food store, and IS OWNED BY MCDONALS.....

mike in co

Not quite.


From 1998 to 2006, McDonald's Corporation owned a majority interest in Chipotle, but fully divested their interest in 2006.[10]



Check wikipedia.

[Doby45]

Yhea, because wikipedia is the "gospel"... I mean only scholars and such can write things on wikipedia.. Hold on, I am gonna go on wikipedia and put that the "owner" of Chipotle is a transexual, that should cause I giant excrement storm..

[jcwit]

Well sooorrry but they did know that Chipotle is an independent company traded on the stock market. And by being traded n the market there is no "owner" per say.


Why would that offend you? You have a problem with knowledge?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Either way Diesel, you stay armed... They need more folks like you in AZ. Things are getting more crazy there every day..

Oh don't worry about that! My gun goes with me . . . I'm thinking of "carrying" my Marlin 1894 in my trunk . . . in 44 mag to match my Alaskan.

Were actually thinking of moving, but looking for a gun friendly state that is not as cold as Vermont (Where I was born and lived 40+ years) or Alaska . . . going on a scouting trip to SW SD / NW NE area, and NE KS on labor day weekend . . . I miss my trees and green, nice to actually see water in the brooks/rivers!

[Doby45]

Well sooorrry but they did know that Chipotle is an independent company traded on the stock market. And by being traded n the market there is no "owner" per say.


Why would that offend you? You have a problem with knowledge?

Knowledge does not offend me at all.

[jcwit]

So what was your point?

[Doby45]

I would simply not cite wikipedia as my only source or reliable information. Nothing more, nothing less. It can be made to say whatever.

[Recluse]

I would simply not cite wikipedia as my only source or reliable information. Nothing more, nothing less. It can be made to say whatever.

When they cite footnote references for such corporations that might include publications like Fortune, Wall Street Journal, Money, Investors Daily Online, et al, they can be considered a reliable source.

I've found plenty of articles/references in Wiki that DO list such footnote references (aka verifiable sources of fact).

Public ownership is also easily verified, as is exchange and change of majority owner status, through a number of publications as well as government record-keeping agencies.

In this case, McDonalds did diversify itself of Chipotle stock almost four years ago. There was also a big pizza chain in Georgia, Tennessee and surrounding area that McDonalds invested heavily in, then diversified.

While I do not automatically accept Wikipedia as a ironclad source, neither do I immediately dismiss it as such. It is a presenter of information compiled by contributors.

Much like the internet and this very forum.

:coffee:

[GT27]

As a former LEO, I do not have any desire in letting someone know I am armed. You make yourself a target when you parade about with your "sweet piece" showing. Concealed carry does away with 95% of the discussion going on here. It is not ILLEGAL to carry into a restaurant simply because they have a sign that says you can't. But, if you decided to open carry and the restaurant says you need take your weapon outside, then you get to decide if you simply want to go and put your weapon out in the car or do you want to take your body along with your weapon. Tresspassing is an enforceable law, carrying your piece in someones shop or restaurant isn't. I think a lot of people open carry for two reasons, either you can't get a CCW (for whatever reason) or you like to be the center of attention. You WANT the little kids pointing and asking mommy and daddy why you have a weapon on. I still carry concealed every single day and I NEVER get asked about my weapon, ever.

IMHO you hit the "nail on the head" with this statement!

[lwknight]

Doby45:
I agree exactly. I fear that the open carry proponents will push it too far and end up being counter productive.

[Recluse]

As a former LEO, I do not have any desire in letting someone know I am armed. You make yourself a target when you parade about with your "sweet piece" showing. Concealed carry does away with 95% of the discussion going on here. It is not ILLEGAL to carry into a restaurant simply because they have a sign that says you can't. But, if you decided to open carry and the restaurant says you need take your weapon outside, then you get to decide if you simply want to go and put your weapon out in the car or do you want to take your body along with your weapon. Tresspassing is an enforceable law, carrying your piece in someones shop or restaurant isn't. I think a lot of people open carry for two reasons, either you can't get a CCW (for whatever reason) or you like to be the center of attention. You WANT the little kids pointing and asking mommy and daddy why you have a weapon on. I still carry concealed every single day and I NEVER get asked about my weapon, ever.

Well, as a former LEO myself, I'm going to disagree.

I'm trying to remember the last time a bad guy made me the center of attention and decided he'd "choose me first" when my partner and I were in our starched Wranglers, white button-down shirts, Stetsons or Resistols and our .45's on one hip and our spare magazines on another. Course, we had those round circle-star badges in our shirt-pockets.

Also trying to remember the last time one of our Texas Rangers got chosen first by a bad guy because they were openly carrying.

Secondly, I'd love to be able to sit down at a restaurant and take off my suit coat or sports coat without having to worry that my firearm is now openly showing and in violation of the law. Likewise, I'd like to be able to get out of my pickup truck at a gas station and fill up without having to first put my jacket back on or leaving the gun on the seat, etc.

Third, the Second Amendment doesn't say anything about "right to keep and bear arms so long as they shall be concealed." I'm only partially sensitive to public opinion, and when it comes to Constitutional Rights, I really don't give a damn about public opinion.

Ironically, though, in this day and age, I'd be more worried about getting hassled from the new-age storm-troopers that pass for law enforcement than I would be from my average fellow citizen--especially down here where I live.

There are a number of small towns in Texas where citizens can stroll in the breakfast diner with their Ruger Blackhawk on their hip and the only people that might take notice and/or get a little panicky would be some city-idiot who'd stopped to eat.

I remember driving to high school with a .22LR and a Marline 30-30 in the gun rack in my pickup truck and nobody batted an eye. Hell, almost everyone who drove a pickup truck had a gun rack with a gun in it.

Guess what? We didn't have no crime either. Not like what we have today. For damned sure, we didn't have drug dealers and gang-bangers hanging around the high school.


It is not ILLEGAL to carry into a restaurant simply because they have a sign that says you can't.

Need to check your laws--they vary from locale to locale. In Texas, if a 30.06 sign is posted, it IS ILLEGAL for you to carry, concealed or otherwise, in that establishment.

:coffee:

[JIMinPHX]

Next time I'm down in Tucson (probably soon) I'll do what I always do when I see one of those signs.

I'll walk up to the door, Bend over a little & stare at the sign, tap my palm on my hip, shake my head, then walk away. I'll make it real obvious so that everybody inside knows why I left. I do that at Fry's electronics every now & then too.

[JIMinPHX]

It is not ILLEGAL to carry into a restaurant simply because they have a sign that says you can't.

Here in AZ, that is illegal. If the place is posted, you can't carry there. CCW permits don't change that. That's AZ law. Things may be different elsewhere.

As for the debate about open carry vs. CCW, I open carry when hiking out in the desert. When I'm in highly populated areas, I keep my keep my shootin iron covered. That's just seems to make more sense in my opinion.

[Doby45]

Well, as a former LEO myself, I'm going to disagree.

I'm trying to remember the last time a bad guy made me the center of attention and decided he'd "choose me first" when my partner and I were in our starched Wranglers, white button-down shirts, Stetsons or Resistols and our .45's on one hip and our spare magazines on another. Course, we had those round circle-star badges in our shirt-pockets.

You know I can't remember the last time I was "targeted" in uniform either. And I can see that "normal" LEO just ain't near as cool as being a Ranger. We just wore plain ole standard deputy browns.

Also trying to remember the last time one of our Texas Rangers got chosen first by a bad guy because they were openly carrying.

I can personally recall atleast one instance where two of my fellow deputies were targeted, both shot and one killed. Are we even now?

Secondly, I'd love to be able to sit down at a restaurant and take off my suit coat or sports coat without having to worry that my firearm is now openly showing and in violation of the law. Likewise, I'd like to be able to get out of my pickup truck at a gas station and fill up without having to first put my jacket back on or leaving the gun on the seat, etc.

I conceal carry in a pair of shorts, tee shirt and flip-flops. Seems you need to figure out there is more than one way to carry concealed. A jacket is not always needed.

Third, the Second Amendment doesn't say anything about "right to keep and bear arms so long as they shall be concealed." I'm only partially sensitive to public opinion, and when it comes to Constitutional Rights, I really don't give a damn about public opinion.

This is simply a preference and everyone has a right to their preference. You choose to carry openly and I don't.

Ironically, though, in this day and age, I'd be more worried about getting hassled from the new-age storm-troopers that pass for law enforcement than I would be from my average fellow citizen--especially down here where I live.

My decision to carry concealed encompasses everyone. I don't want you to know. I don't want the security guard at the mall to know. I don't want grandma walking past me to know or a "bad guy" that is about to hold up a convenience store.

There are a number of small towns in Texas where citizens can stroll in the breakfast diner with their Ruger Blackhawk on their hip and the only people that might take notice and/or get a little panicky would be some city-idiot who'd stopped to eat.

There are plenty of cities here in Georgia the same way.

I remember driving to high school with a .22LR and a Marline 30-30 in the gun rack in my pickup truck and nobody batted an eye. Hell, almost everyone who drove a pickup truck had a gun rack with a gun in it.

Was the same way for me growing up in east GA.

Guess what? We didn't have no crime either. Not like what we have today. For damned sure, we didn't have drug dealers and gang-bangers hanging around the high school.



Need to check your laws--they vary from locale to locale. In Texas, if a 30.06 sign is posted, it IS ILLEGAL for you to carry, concealed or otherwise, in that establishment.

Yhea, sorry about that I am not a law professor and I do NOT know the laws in every state of this union. I do know the ones in Georgia though. So as a disclaimer "Check the laws in your own state prior to taking Doby45's word as THE law!"


I am Doby45 and I approved this message.


:coffee:

Sorry to have offended you Recluse. I think you took a personal experience of mine and made it personal for you. Have a great day and know that we are still brothers and I would stand side by side with ya, regardless of who has the coolest uniform (which would be you). I mean you know the damn uniform is cool if Chuck Norris wears it on TV. They say his tears cure cancer, but he has never cried.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Although a simple "no guns" sign is not enforceable with the concealed carry laws here in Texas it is still enforceable in criminal trespass law. That said, I would rather be guilty of criminal trespass than dead but it is still probably the best practice to take you money somewhere else and it is you duty as a gun owner to be a vocal about that decision that you possibly can.

That's my $0.02

My whole reason for this thread!

Also note in my first post on this thread that I mentioned telling the stores that sell us most of our other "gun stuff" that we want more "casting stuff" They won't stock it if we don't let them know we would buy it!

We need to speak up!

I also just wrote Pat at Chipotles back:

Dear Pat,

Thank you for your response, it was not the answer I had hoped for, but be it as it may.

I do have one further question:
If I was to bring my wife to one of your restaurants, and we did disarm ourselves . . . do you have a way to protect us from harm up to and including our very lives?

If so please describe briefly how you would this and guarantee our safety.

Sincerely,

Shawn

Lets see what they say!

Edit to add their response:

Shawn,

Our restaurants are safe. If you disagree with us in this regard, definitely that is your right to feel that way of course, and we respect your decision to visit a different restaurant or business. If you ever change your mind about our own decision in this regard, we'll be happy to welcome you back.

Pat

[JIMinPHX]

Next time you write him, remind him that Luby's Cafeteria used to be considered a "safe" place to eat too.

[Recluse]

Sorry to have offended you Recluse. I think you took a personal experience of mine and made it personal for you. Have a great day and know that we are still brothers and I would stand side by side with ya, regardless of who has the coolest uniform (which would be you). I mean you know the damn uniform is cool if Chuck Norris wears it on TV. They say his tears cure cancer, but he has never cried.

Hell, Doby, you didn't offend me--not even close.

Just offering another perspective in my usual, gentle politically-correct and eternally diplomatic way. :)

Uniforms? Only "uniform" we ever wore was our raid jackets or ballcaps. Other than that, our uniform was whatever attire was appropriate for the day. Sometimes it was a suit (ugh), especially if you were testilying in court in a big northern city. Most days down here, it was starched jeans, starched button down, cowboy hat, boots and your badge.

:coffee:

[Doby45]

What do the "Rangers" currently run as sidearms? I would assume there would have to be some kind of thought put in to what looks good with the classic Ranger look. 1911s? Six shooters?

[Down South]

I also prefer to keep my piece concealed. Like mentioned in a previous post, a piece that can be seen may make you a primary target. Plus in my opinion, a concealed weapon gives you a better edge in a bad situation.
In Louisiana, I see very few "No Guns" signs. Also in my state if the signs are not displayed correctly, the right size, correct location and at every entrance to the building then they are not legally posted and therefore invalid as far as the law is concerned.
One big flaw in our concealed carry law is that we can't legally carry in a restaurant or other place of business that has a class “A” liquor license (License to serve adult beverages on location). This I don’t understand nor agree with. Bars that serve nothing but liquid refreshments is somewhat understandable but a restaurant is not.
Our CCW law also does not allow us to carry if we are under the influence. This is understandable and should cancel out the law preventing carry in places that serve alcohol.
In other words, I can’t go into a steak house or other type restaurant with my family, order a meal and drink tea or water if they can legally serve beer or hard liquor there.

[Moonie]

Down South, NC is the same way about alcohol sales, if they serve it you can't carry there.

[PatMarlin]

One thing about the real California Berzerkly and SF Bay is they truly have some of THE best ethnic food in the world. That's the only thing I miss from down there.

Hmmm, I wonder what the results would be if someone ran a Pro Gun vs. Anti Gun Restaurant Review in the local PennySaver or Nickel news paper?

Which of the 2 groups would put their dollars where their mouths are more?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I sent the following back to Pat at Chipotles last night.

Pat,

That's probably what the owners of Luby's Cafeteria thought . . . http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/first100/1001214.html

I'll spend my money elsewhere, I hope you never have any problems . . . in your "safe restaurant"

Shawn

I have not heard back from them yet, (Before it was always within a few hours) so I figure they have no response . . . but, I've been wrong before!

Here in AZ if you have a CCW, and you do not consume alcohol, and they are not posted as "no guns" then you are free to eat your meal in their restaurant. One of the few benefits of having a ccw here . . . the other two are your pre-screened to purchase a firearm (no back ground check) and the other is that the ccw is reciprocal with most other reasonable states . . .

[Recluse]

What do the "Rangers" currently run as sidearms? I would assume there would have to be some kind of thought put in to what looks good with the classic Ranger look. 1911s? Six shooters?

Most carry pretty much whatever they want. My cousin is still a born-and-true 1911 man. Another Ranger I know carries a Sig P220, and I heard a rumor that one of the Rangers down in the valley area carries a .38 Super.

Oh and by the way, I didn't mean the "need to check your laws" to come across the way it did. I wish we had one of those smiley faces that shrugged the shoulders while rolling the eyes because I was trying to communicate that there are more convoluted laws in each of the fifty states than there are crooked politicians to write them.

Like here in Texas, if you don't have a legal 30.06 sign, a "ghostbuster" no-guns sign is meaningless, unless the owner/manager asks you to leave, to which if you argue it can be a trespassing fine, blah blah blah.

For the most part, I agree with you and everyone else about keeping your firearm concealed. Makes good sense. I'd just like to have the freedom to take off my jacket at dinner or in church or the theatre, etc, without breaking the law because my firearm is showing. Same goes for when I get out of the truck or car to pump gas, throw away some trash, etc.

Make sense?

:coffee:

[thx997303]

I've been staying out of this thread, but I just can't stay quiet.

Target? Really? Give me ONE verified report of a law abiding citizen being targeted for open carrying.

Police are different. They are targets for the criminal element because they are the police.

You will find ONE report of a person targeted for open carry. That one report is out of wisconsin and lacks details and reads as a plug for concealed carry laws. Highly suspect. No further details have emerged, and there is no police report.

I'm not asking for "well we had this happen here" or "well a guy told me"

Hard evidence.

Way you guys talk I should have been targeted for my open carry at some time in the past 2 years.

And the tactical advantage? There isn't one.

The element of surprise is an offensive tactic, and not a defensive tactic.

A man approaches you demanding money, he has a gun on you. Can you get your gun out and shoot him before he shoots you? NOPE.

As defenders we are forced to be reactive to any assault. However by projecting an image of readiness and ability to defend oneself, you can be proactive.

If you were a criminal, you would want something free and easy. No hard work, no more danger than is required.

Robbing an armed individual is not easy. And is not smart.

Not saying criminals are smart, but they sure aint all dumb. And they don't want to die, they want to continue being a drain on society.

After open carrying for a while, I can tell you that most people are too absorbed in their own little world to even notice my full size openly carried pistol.

And as for a gun grab, use a friggin retention holster. So simple.

A properly holstered gun is no easy target.

[thx997303]

And to keep this from getting lost in my long post, here it is.

In Utah, with a CCP you can carry open or concealed, fully loaded, in bars, schools, pretty well anywhere with very few exceptions.

Without a CCP, you can carry openly, with a full magazine but no round in the chamber (Utah unloaded) in bars and most places. Schools are off limits without the CCP.

Also without a CCP you can carry a loaded handgun in your car open or concealed and the school zone does not apply.

No gun signs carry no weight outside of if they ask you to leave.

[JIMinPHX]

I sent the following back to Pat at Chipotles last night.

Pat,

That's probably what the owners of Luby's Cafeteria thought . . . http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/first100/1001214.html

I'll spend my money elsewhere, I hope you never have any problems . . . in your "safe restaurant"

Shawn

I have not heard back from them yet, (Before it was always within a few hours) so I figure they have no response . . . but, I've been wrong before!


Maybe that one actually got him to give the subject serious consideration.

Laws restricting people from carrying guns into various places don't stop the criminals with mal-intent. They only stop the honest people who obey laws. Those laws are foolish or misguided at best.

[c3d4b2]

I have always considered a no gun sign as an invitation for the establishment to be robbed and thus unsafe to patronage. If I can find someone, I point this out as I am leaving.

[TCLouis]

If I owned a gun, and If I had a carry permit, and IF I were carrying, then typically it would be concealed , if for no other reason that it would be surprise for some boogey man that was wishing to do me harm.


somewhere on the
Tennessee Gun Owners web site is a printer ready file to print a card give to businesses that do not allow armed persons in. It simply explains that since they have posted their business then the bearer will find a firearm friendlier place to spend money. I think it matches the tear-apart business card format. Maybe each firearms site should have a generic version of the same thing. Bound to be a Word label format that would work and would print message on both sides. Maybe a short courteous message on one side and more complete information on the other side.

[Recluse]

a printer ready file to print a card give to businesses that do not allow armed persons in. It simply explains that since they have posted their business then the bearer will find a firearm friendlier place to spend money.

That is a great idea.

:coffee:

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Jim,

I still have not heard back from them, maybe they are thinking . . .

-------------------------------

We just got a print your own business card, but maybe we could put something on the back . . . ? http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=91505

You mean something like this:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/RCBS270-150SP4.jpg



Print your own:
http://www.azcdl.org/ThanksFrontBusCardTemplate1b.pdf

but probably more like this, but I can't access cuz I'm on a mac . . .

Found here:
http://www.azcdl.org/html/educational.html bottom of the page under activism there are more . . . just need microsoft . . .

[home in oz]

Sportsman Warehouse closed in Wichita.

[Down South]

Sportsman Warehouse closed in Wichita.:?::?::?:

[JIMinPHX]

Sportsman Warehouse closed in Wichita.

The Sportsman's Warehouse here has a perfectly reasonable gun carry policy. the gist of it is - if you plan to unholster your firearm while in the store, then please unload it before you enter.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

The Sportsman's Warehouse here has a perfectly reasonable gun carry policy. the gist of it is - if you plan to unholster your firearm while in the store, then please unload it before you enter.

Yeah, I don't mind that, If I gotta defend myself, I'm not gonna worry about their policy, and I'm able to legally carry in there, I'd say about maybe 2% open carry in there. (Tucson)

One day I was in there and I ran into this guy in the powder/primer isle, and we made small talk about it was nice to see some choices on the shelves, he happened to be right behind me at the checkout, and that day I was carrying discreetly . . . in a crossbreed super tuck, and he said "Crossbreed huh?" I said "yeah, I like it" . . . he notice the unique belt clips . . . I stopped for water, and we met leaving . . . I then noticed he also had the same belt clips as I . . . that is how he knew I was carrying . . .

[JIMinPHX]

I think that policy about emptying the gun before you enter only pertains to people who PLAN to remove the gun from it's holster while in the store, like if you were shopping for a new holster & planned to check how it fits.

Almost by definition, you would not enter the store planning to pull the gun out in self defense. That sort of thing just happens. I think that they understand that completely & that is why they worded the sign the way that they did.

I've open carried there a few times. I've never had a problem.

[mike in co]

after recieving to follow up reply on my request to have some of "our gun friendly sites added, i send a question asking why no response...
thier reply:
"Dear Mike,

I am sorry to say, but it seems that the websites in question have not passed the site screening guidelines that are put in place by the content filtering advisers. Please remember that these guidelines apply nationwide and are intended to create a family-friendly environment. As we discussed in our call, it may be that in the Mid-West hunting and guns are commonly “family friendly,” but please keep in mind that Panera locations are frequent stops for visitors and travelers so the content filtering standards are applied consistently across all of our locations.

I greatly apologize for any inconvenience.



Alex Jinks
Technical Support "


my reply...thanks for the confirnation...tell your management thier decision will cost them money. every site i visit will have your position listed. i was a customer , i am no more.

mike in co

[Down South]

Way to go Mike. If they think their income may be affected maybe they will act right regardless if they are anti-gun at heart. We have to let businesses know how we feel and the consequences of their anti-gun actions towards the general public. It’s time to turn things around.

[alamogunr]

I

somewhere on the
Tennessee Gun Owners web site is a printer ready file to print a card give to businesses that do not allow armed persons in. It simply explains that since they have posted their business then the bearer will find a firearm friendlier place to spend money. I think it matches the tear-apart business card format. Maybe each firearms site should have a generic version of the same thing. Bound to be a Word label format that would work and would print message on both sides. Maybe a short courteous message on one side and more complete information on the other side.

I'm a member of TGO but I can't find the file for printing cards. Help!

John
W.TN