Advice sought - .38 Special, .357 Mag and 9mm

[colonelhogan44]

Hello all.
I have recently started casting, mostly 356-120-TC and 358-158-RF bullets for use in 9mm handguns and a Rossi .357 levergun. The 158 grain mold drops bullets that are .362 and they cannot be loaded as cast using my lee dies -- the bullet is too large for the seating die :sad: . I'm planning to get a Lee .358 sizer at some point, but not immediately.

In the mean time, I have been casting a lot of the 120 grain bullets (wheel weights dropping about .356-.357), lubing with LLA (I also just mixed up some 45-45-10 and am going to be trying that, as well as straight JPW) and loading them in both 9mm and .38 special cases using green dot, but I have several problems.

1) 9mm: 4.5 grains green dot, Bullet seated as far out as I can.

It leads. no surprise there. But the primers show signs of high pressure...which is strange, because I'm 0.5 grains under the starting load for a 125 grain lead bullet as listed in the Lee manual. Any ideas?

2) .38 special: again, 4.5 grains of green dot (I know, I'm lazy and didn't want to change the auto disk between runs. Don't shoot me. it's above the starting charge for .38 special with a 158 grain lead slug, but well below the starting charge of .357 mag for a 158 grain lead slug at 6.0 grains, but there are no other .38 special guns in the family, and I have all of 25 .357 cases available at the moment)

the Jury is still out on if there is any leading. There are no obvious flakes or shreds anywhere, and I can't tell if the coating in the bore is just dirty green dot residue, or a tiny bit of lead. It is evenly distributed from breech to muzzle. When I clean the pipe, I'll know.

The problem is that I have no real load data for a lead bullet this light, and have kind of been interpolating and keeping the charges on the light side. Does anyone have some, for .357 or .38? I have green dot and H110 available at the moment (although I have shied away from the H110--touchy stuff. The green dot seems to be a very versatile and somewhat forgiving powder).

Any advise on either problem?

[emorris]

I also had trouble loading the 120gn tc lees. I have the standard lube design. I ended up trying titegroup and my ruger cycled at no over pressure signs at primer and case web, but leading started. I tried the tumble lubing but it would not work. My barrel started leading about halfway down. It seemed that LLa just wasnt enough. I pan lubed along with tumble lubing and solved my problrem. I have yet to try just pan lubing (its hot outside)My boolits are sized at .358. What COl are you loading the 9mm? I loaded at around 1.120 for reliable feeding. Pressure can rise quickly when playing with seating deapth so find out what COl will feed reliable and then work up load. Your leading may due to the booliet being too small. If you have the TL design load up a dummey and see if it will drop fit in the chamber without sizing. It would be best to slug your gun to see where you are at. The following are my notes from ny loadings. I havent updated them since i tested the double lubed boolits ,but they were 1.120 Col, sized at .358, with 3.5gn titegroup with no leading. You can check my threads to see what problems I had and the advice i received. Mt gun44 was a big help. When I develop a load I weigh every charge and dont bother setting up my powder drop until I get my load. I understand being lazey but safety is more important.


9mm Luger
Lee 120gn cone bullet
Actual weight 125.5-126.9 gn
Wheelweight alloy used
Lee Alox lube

Powder Bullseye 4.6gn
Bullet Sized to .356
COL 1.096,1.097,1.106,1.111,1.115
Notes. All five rounds fired and gun cycled 100%. There was a small amount of burn residue on case mouth. The barrel leaded. The primers showed signs of excessive pressure, by cratering.



Powder Titegroup 3.1gn tested 07/07/10
Bullet sized to .356
Col 1.145
Notes. All six rounds failed to feed. Most failed to eject. Velocity averaged1214. Case showed large amounts of deposited carbon more than halfway down case. Barrel showed small amount of leading,but had large amounts of unburned powder


Powder Titegroup 3.5gn tested07/07/10
Bullet Sized to .358
Col 1.135
Notes three round function test. All three rounds fired and cycled 100%. There was a very small amount of leading at throat and a small amount of carbon deposit, which was easily removed. No signs of excessive pressure. No deposit on outside of case. Recoil seemed ok. Lube was rubbed on and dried with blow drier.

Powder Titegroup 3.5gn tested 07/07/10
Bullet sized to .358
Col varied
Notes. This was a eight round function and velocity test. 1st col 1.143 velocity 1087fps, 2nd col 1.142 vel 1085, 3rd col 1.144 vel err, 4th failed to feed into chamber hung up, col 1.144 velocity 1183, 5th col 1.142 vel 1244, 6th failed to eject col 1.141 velocity 1208. A vel err, B vel err.
Upon inspection the barrel appeared to have a lead smear starting halfway down barrel. The LLA lube was applied by hand and dried w/ drier. Bullets were tacky when loaded. The leading was easily cleaned. Recoil seemed normal. None of the primers showed signs of excessive pressure.




Powder Titegroup 3.7gn 07/08/10
Bullet sized to .358
Col 1.123, 1.124 1.128
All three round fired and function firearm. Primer showed no sign of excessive pressure. Small trace amounts of lead.


Powder Titegroup 3.7 & 3.9 07/09/10
Bullet sized to .358
Col varies
Notes: This was a 16 round function and accuracy test. All rounds fired and cycled. Barrel was cleaned prior to test. Col varied from 1.1091-1.117-1.118-1.119-1.120-1.124-1.126 first string 3.7 gn, 1.119-1.121-1.123-1.124-1.126 second string 3.9gn. The fist string of fire was tanted due to mixing the separate rounds, but seemed to hit high. Target was of poor quality and shooting from elevated position with rest. Barrel leaded halfway down, but was easily cleaned. Second string sit up was same as above. Six round test. Barrel leaded halfway down, but was harder to clean than pervious. Of 3 cases measured .389 at web, same as once fired un sized.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

My source is Speer reloading manual #10. For 9mm lead, 125 grain, they are listing 3,8 grains of green dot as giving 869 fps and 4.2 grains of GD (max) as giving 990 fps. I once ran a series test of those loads and found that 4.0 gave me the best accuracy in a M92 SB Baretta. No leading. Bullets sized .357. Lube NRA 50/50 Alox-Beeswax. Fed well and clean burning. 9mm is critical on seating depth, too deep and pressures can and will soar so it is easy to get into trouble. You need a taper crimp to prevent bullet from getting pushed even the slightest into the case on the feed. Green Dot is a versatile and flexible powder and should work well. The above load also worked well in a Luger. I prefer staying under 1000 fps anyway as Luger parts come from the high rent district.
For the 38 special I could find no info in Speer for a 125 grain load. But the 38 case is much longer than the 9mm so the same load of 4.5 grains would give lower pressure and velocity. When you go to the 158 grain bullet that increases the numbers. No loading is shown for GD, but they show 4.3-4.7 grains of Unique which is a bit slower(burning) than GD, with velocity ranging from 853 to 913 fps. So your loading of 4.5 grains of GD is not particularly hot for the 38 special. There is some room to go up or down to find the load that will give the best grouping. I would send that mold that is casting bullets @ .362 back to Lee and have them send you one that casts at .358. In case no one has mentioned it...sizing in fact damages bullets---the more sizing-the more damage and squishing a bullet down .005" isn't the greatest way to go...at all
In the 357 department, Green Dot will work ok too. I'm a target shooter so use moderate loadings in the 357. For comparison, 700X which is a faster burning powder than GD is listed with either the SWC or Round nose 158 grain bullet at 4.5 grains as giving 904 fps and 5.0 grains as giving 1002 fps. For the 357 this is moderate so you should not get leading using 4.5 grains of the slower burning green Dot and certainly won't get into trouble with it.
For moderate loadings in all three cartridges, Green Dot is a good powder and can be tuned to give good performance/accuracy. But I would not go too high with it in an effort to get higher performance loadings as it is not considered a slow(er) powder and at #16 or so on the burning rate chart it can generate higher pressures quickly. I hope that the foregoing has been of some use to you; good luck and good shooting. LLS

[lwknight]

All good answers so far. I just wanted to touch on the H-110 being touchy. H-110 seems to work only with heavier bullets and a nearly full case with magnum primers. I say that it is not touchy because you cannot overload a magnum revolver with it unless you actually compress the powder or use a ridiculously heavy bullet like 200+ grains in a 357 magnum.
Anyway , with a full case of h110 and a 158 grain bullet , you are getting a good solid full power, magnum, stable, predictable, and accurate load.
The 110 is definitely not a plinking powder nor is it suited for small capacity cases like 9mm.

If you are thinking of using the 158 grain boolits in the 9mm , I would suggest a slower powder like WSF for that job.

[colonelhogan44]

I had no intention of using H110 in the 9mm.

Le Loup Solitaire, in the 2nd edition of the Lee Modern Reloading manual, the starting load is listed at 5.0 grains of Green Dot, at 1121 fps and a max load of 5.2 for 1165 fps. It's strange that such a discrepancy exists between the manuals...
I have my 120 TC bullets seated to the maximum depth possible to still allow them to come out of the magazine of a Beretta 92. If you are familiar with the bullet design, this puts the case mouth right below the lube groove (basically flush with the bottom edge of the groove) and I have a nice firm crimp on the case.

what's the consensus on a safe maximum for the GD in .357? teh 158 grain lead has a celing of 6 grains, so I'm assuming it's closer to 7 grains with the lighter slug.

lwknight, I have used the H110 with great success using 180 grain hornady XTP hollow points...those are some barn burner loads. I would love to push it up past maximum loads, to get a little more pop from my Rossi Levergun...since it has the same action that used for .454 casull chambering--a 60ksi round. I need to get my hands on some lil'gun to try out with the 180's as well. I have heard that is quite the powder as well.

[Echo]

CH44, what is the groove diameter of your 9mm? Many are significantly above the expected 355-356. It could be that your boolits are undersize for your gun, causing the leading.

[colonelhogan44]

it's 0.357

[MtGun44]

Then you need at MINIMUM .357 and your gun will might well be happier with .358,
with the caveat that your chamber must be able to accept a round loade with this diam
boolit. Different brass has differnt neck thickness so if the chamber is marginal for
the diameter that the bore likes, try different brands of brass. For example, in .45 ACP
Rem usually has the thinnest necks, don't know in 9mm.

Use a regular lube and size at groove diam or +.001 or even +.002 and you will get
good results. I load .357 diam 356 120TC conventional lube boolits for many different
9mms and they work well and are accurate, no leading that won't clean up in a normal
cleaning.

The 358 158 RF is a great design, too. I drive it at full power in a couple of 6" .357 mags
with no problems and great accy cast of AC wwts and again - coventionally lubed, and .001
over throat diam.

Bill

[10mmShooter]

Col.

I used Green Dot in my .38 loads shot out of my 8-3/8in 686 with an RCBS 150g SWC(152g avg).. Older 1999 Alliant manual shows a max .38+P charge of 3.7g of GD at 910 fps with a 158g LSWC.(i could NOT duplicate this load)

The best I could get to work for me was 4.0g(over the max .38+P by .3g) of Green Dot for consistently at 875 fps....just never could break into the 900fps with GD. I did not want to push the max anymore than .3 of a grain. You mentioned 4.5 grain of Green Dot thats quite a bit over the max charge for .38+P not sure I would push the limits that much even in a .357.

Wanting to get to 950-975 fps I have recently switched over to WW231(approx 4.7g) and Red Dot at 4.2g for 975 fps with the same RCBS 150g SWC. CAUTION both the 231 and Red Dot charges are a few tenths over the max .38 +P.

[colonelhogan44]

The thing is, we're talking about a 120 grain slug, not 158, which makes a large difference in charge weights. it's in a very strong rifle, so no worries. it seems it would be easier to get higher velocity with GD rather than red dot, but I wouldn't know.

[9.3X62AL]

or use a ridiculously heavy bullet like 200+ grains in a 357 magnum.

HARRUMPH......12.4 grains of either H-110 or WW-296 is a GREAT load with Lyman #358430, a 195 grain RN in 357 Magnum.

[colonelhogan44]

I just cleaned the barrel of my rifle, and there was absolutely no leading, whatsoever. I shot probably The 120 grainers drop right at .357 and shoot beautifully. I guess I got lucky on that one. :holysheep

I even bumped the charge up to 5.5 grains, tumble lubed with straight JPW and still no leading. The higher charge makes a noticeably louder report, and slightly more recoil, all with absolutely no pressure signs. I also have very little carbon on the case with the higher charge, whereas with 4.5 grains, the cases all came out black up to the rim. that's a sign of low pressure, correct?

anyway, I'm quite happy with the results.

I emailed Lee regarding the 158 mold that drops at 0.362, but haven't heard back. I'll try calling tomorrow. All of my lee equipment to this point has worked great...and this mold drops beautiful bullets...just a little too big to be useful.

[MtGun44]

You need to offer that large mold on the sale section here. SOMEBODY really needs that
diameter and would love to have it for their large throated revolver.

Bill

[chris in va]

My tumbling and inaccuracy issues didn't go away until I switched to a 358-125-rf mold sized at 358. And yes, mine also drop at .362.