Hardness Tester - good investment?

[Markbo]

With all the discusstions about alloys and this mix and that mix and segregating Wheel weights (my main lead supply) isn't a hardness tester a good idea?

I mean seeing as I have been told all my reloading career (less than 10 years) that 10-12 BH is too soft for anything but the lightest loads and I am going to have to re-learn everything.... shouldn't I KNOW how hard my ingots are?

[462]

Recently, I bought a Lee tester, thinking it would be helpful and informational. Haven't got around to doing much testing, though. What few boolits that have been tested seem to fall into the BHN ranges cited here...be they water-quenched wheel weights, air-cooled wheel weights, 50/50 or 75/25 wheel weights/lead. I have plans to contuct a comprehensive test, as soon as time allows.

I cobbled together a stand to hold the microscope and bullet, and have become more proficient at moving the boolit in the direction opposite to the one which you naturally think it should go.

As an aside: To those of you who have a Lee tester, do you file a flat for testing or test an unfiled area, such as the nose or base?

[atr]

I am a dinosaur when it comes to testing hardness.....I learned to relate the color of the mix to hardness......more lead=more dull grey color and a softer mix.....more tin/antimony=more of a bright silver color and a harder mix.....
I also try the first couple in my lyman 45 sizer....if they show deformation then I know they are too soft
like I said....I'm a dinosaur

I did have a friend use his tester on some of my ingots....my hardness range was consistant between 18-20.....

[buck1]

I cast for a long wile without one. I now have one and would not be with out it! You can duplicate hardness with scrap and unknown alloy and on and on. Trust me get one!! Cabon trees is my favorite!!....Buck

http://www.castingstuff.com/cabinetree_llc___lead_testers.htm

[RP]

I got a hardness tester and its a very useful tool if you get lead from all over. The only thing i hate is if you air cool your boolits it takes awhile for them to reach hardness. I wanted to mix up a patch of lead and test it then I learned about the wait. But testing ingots will not tell you what your boolit will be they cool at different rates and will give a diff reading that is what I have read and been told.

[cbrick]

I mean seeing as I have been told all my reloading career (less than 10 years) that 10-12 BH is too soft for anything but the lightest loads.

What can ya say . . . So much for old wives tales. My 308's love air cooled WW at 11-12 BHN, so does my 30-30, 45 Colt and several others. My 45 1911 is quite happy with 7-9 BHN HP's. The only thing I shoot harder than that is very high end 357 long range revolver match loads and for that I did extensive testing to learn it liked 18 BHN.

Don't fall for the old wives tale that harder is better. It is not! It is only harder and that in itself can cause it's own problems, the term "Hardcast" is evil and confuses new casters and purchasers of commercial cast bullets and not infrequently leads to leading/accuracy problems.

Bullet fit in "your" firearm is far more important than making them hard.

As to your question, do you need a hardness tester? Sure, they are a very useful tool but you need to keep in mind that BHN is only one of the factors that will effect how your alloy will shoot in your firearms. Very dissimilar lead alloys can have the same BHN. Here is an article on BHN testers that might help put some of this info into perspective.

http://www.lasc.us/Shay-BHN-Tester-Experiment.htm

Rick

[mooman76]

I would say yes. It isn't a must have but would help. I don't have a thermometer either but probablyget a hardness tester befor I got a thermeometer. I haven't really gotten into the playing with alloys though. I just use softe lead or straight WWs and if I want harder I go with water dropped WWs.

[geargnasher]

It all depends on what you want to accomplish and the way you go about it. If you scrounge all sorts of scrap from wherever you can get it, it helps with knowing what to alloy. Of course that means you have to have an idea of how "hard" you need. If you have a steady supply of wheel weights and shoot mostly pistols, you probably don't need a hardness tester. Or a thermometer. If you are wanting to be a bit more technical, a hardness tester does help, but a mass spectrometer is better!

Gear

[dromia]

I'd been casting with success for nigh on 30 years before I sprung for a Cabine Tree tester which is a fine piece fo kit.

Using it has been very interesting but it really hasn't helped me cast, load or shoot any better.

From my experience if you have good boolit fit and a good lube then boolit hardness isn't really critical, WW/range scrap hardness has served me well for anything up to 1800 fps.

When I'm wanting to go faster then I'll start adding some lino type, when I get the right mix I'll try it for hardness just out of interest.

When that batch of alloy is gone I'll then work up another one as hardness is only part of the higher velocity equation, the ductility of the boolit alloy is just as important and a hardness tester won't measure that. So mixing an alloy to a previous hardness might not give you the same result.

I use my Cabine Tree more for measuring boolit and case run out that testing for boolit hardness.

Glad I bought it though as I enjoy fine tools. :grin:

[Markbo]

How long should ingots set up before I test them?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Lots of great advice for you here. I can't really add much, except if you buy a LEE.
you need lots of Light to see through the microscope. I made this stand.
Oh, YES I do file a flat on the bullet test speciman.
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1302.jpg

[Markbo]

I did something similar with a microscope I have set up in the garage. Since I turned 45 or so, there is never enough light for anything! 8-)

[montana_charlie]

But testing ingots will not tell you what your boolit will be they cool at different rates and will give a diff reading that is what I have read and been told.
Don't believe it...

[Mk42gunner]

I bought a hardness tester, (Lee) and used it a few times. Guess what, my air cooled wheel weights tested at 12.5 BHN. Since I'm still using that batch of alloy, I haven't tested any more boolits.

AS long as you aren't trying touse some exotic alloy like 73.45% lead, 20.19% tin and 6.36% titanium, I feel a hardness tester is a nice to have item; not a need to have item.

Oh Yeah, use the smoothest cut file you have, otherwise it will look like twenty miles of bad road with Lee's magnifying graph.


Robert

[Bret4207]

If you want one the Cabine Tree is about as good as it gets. LBT is good too. Thing is all it tells you is hardness, nothing else. You can have 3 alloys of completely different makeup at the same Bhn or 3 different Bhn from the same alloy treated differently. And it does take 2-3 weeks for alloy to "cure" and hit it's stable point.

I use my Cabine Tree a lot more for checking run out than Bhn.

[stephen perry]

I've had several oppurtunities to have a hardness tester the old stand-by being the SAECO I passed on. Nobody that had one could tell me what they were doing with it. Me being old school on bullet hardness I always take my bullets to my vise and lammer them with my ball peen. If they flattened the way I wanted they were good to go.

Bret your desription of the Cabine Tree is interesting having several features. Do several distributors sell the Cabin Tree or is it direct sale.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Bret4207]

Go to "castingstuff" at the bottom of this page. Direct link. No other sales I'm aware of.

[7of7]

I am a dinosaur when it comes to testing hardness.....I learned to relate the color of the mix to hardness......more lead=more dull grey color and a softer mix.....more tin/antimony=more of a bright silver color and a harder mix.....
I also try the first couple in my lyman 45 sizer....if they show deformation then I know they are too soft
like I said....I'm a dinosaur

I did have a friend use his tester on some of my ingots....my hardness range was consistant between 18-20.....

18 - 20 is pretty hard... isn't it?

[chasw]

I like the pencil test, using the Staedtler set of medium artists pencils ranging in hardness degrees from 6B to 4H, more than enough to accurately test all our usual lead alloys. For example, if HB won't gouge a flat spot of alloy but F will, then we say its HB hardness, which is what my Lyman No 2 ingots test at.

Total cost for the medium set of 12 pencils is about $10 at the local Office Depot store. - CW

http://www.staedtler.com/Mars_Lumograph_eng.Staedtler

[cajun shooter]

I will say that for most shooting, a bullet that test at 20BHN is too hard. I am of course referring to my type of shooting which is in SASS. Even hunting bullets for our area will do fine with Lyman #2 which is 15BHN. If you shoot pistol bullets that hard in a 45 ACP, the rifling is shallow and you will have problems with sealing and blow back. I see people at the range with 45ACP cases that are almost all black after firing. I shoot bullets that are 10 BHN for competition and plinking. When Elmer Keith was trying to invent the 44 magnum he was never shooting bullets that were past #2. I have been casting since around 1970 and it seems to me that in just the past few years everyone wants hard bullets. How this started I have no idea but I think it is a step in the wrong direction. Many more problems will show up with a too hard bullet than one that is too soft. It was many years of casting before I heard of water quenching. I would not want to be with out my Cabine Tree. When I go lead shopping it is in my truck. I remember many times in my youth that I would cast anything I found. This caused me all kinds of problems that would have not been there if I knew the BHN of the bullet.

[Maj Dad]

Since this thread has been re-charged, I thought I'd chime in. I cast my first bullets ~1971 but never had the benefit of such an excellent source of info as this forum. :drinks:

The article linked by cbrick from the LA Silhouette Club noted that the Lee was the most consistent hardness tester. I'm especially glad to see that since I ordered one from Midway Thursday (on sale for a few dollars off) :) I do wish you could test ingots like the Cabine Tree, and I will probably acquire one of those later on, but I have always needed some means of testing that is consistent and repeatable. I've been quenching bullets for years but was always unaware of the obturation issue and I am sure the leading I encountered was a direct result of that. Thanks JonB_in_Glencoe for the pic of your Lee stand - I will definitely make of of those!
Cheers to all,
George J.
"Maj Dad"

[Shooter6br]

The pencils work ok for me. I use them to compare alloy lyman # 2, PB, 20-1 and 25-1.Simple and better than guessing. "Cost is no object as long as it's cheap"

[RedHawk357Mag]

Lots of great advice for you here. I can't really add much, except if you buy a LEE.
you need lots of Light to see through the microscope. I made this stand.
Oh, YES I do file a flat on the bullet test speciman.
http://i640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/JonB_in_Glencoe/100_1302.jpg
JonB thanks for that great pic! Awesome idea! Thanks!

[buck1]

Good info here..

True hardness is only one factor, But so is fit ,powder charge ,primer, and on and on. 1+1+1=3

If you shoot scrap as I do, Who knows exactly what it is? Oh you can bang them together , but that only goes so far , and what of that FREE chunk of WW and roof flashing someone else melted together first?
I can Get scrap alloy to a hardness I want and then run some tests and tweek it with some tin or what ever. And I will get there, and a tester lets me keep a eye on the hardness.
If you Know exactly what your alloy is ,then you can simply look it up. But that means buying pure stuff to mix.
A hardness tester keeps one more variable out of the load.
Others stated that their guns shoot XX hardness just fine. They know this because they have a hardness tester and checked it.
Lots of ways to check hardness, From staple guns, to testing penciles, to quality made stuff to lesser stuff. If its concistant its usefull...Buck

[Kirk Miller]

I just bought a cabin tree tester for one purpose only. About three years ago, I started casting for my 222 rem mag. After 2500-2700 shots I've got that ONE particular rifle figured out. Being so small, every single variable is critical, and I've been having trouble keeping the batches of alloy the same.

Whether or not the tester will really help,or not, I don't know. But so far, with a little tweaking here and there, each batch of alloy can be matched for bhn. My next step, will be to mix a 40-60lb. batch which should last a couple of years.

If nothing else, the tester takes one more question and variable out of my fevered brain.
Kirk

[Markbo]

I have a specific question for Jon B... who made that flashlight mount and where can I get one? I have been looking for something like that for a year! :-D

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Markbo,
I assembled it with standard available parts.
I sell the flashlight and a Ring at Gunshows for $12 for mounting on pistols.
That is, pistols with a accessory rail under the barrel (I think Glock has a different rail,
but all others use the picatinny/weaver style).

This cheapo LED flashlight, available from Harbor freight and other places,
uses 3 standard AAA batteries, NOT the expensive button batteries.
It is exactly one inch in diameter and has a handy on/off switch on the battery screw cap.
I use a cheapo Tasco brand Weaver style "low" scope ring.

And...for this Oak LEE hardness tester scope stand,
I used one piece of a two piece Weaver rifle scope mount.
(PM me if you want a flashlight/ring/mount setup, we can talk trade or cash)
someday, I may gear-up and make a bunch of the Oak stands.
Jon

[Single Shot]

The Lee Tester is a great product.

I was actually using it before it was sold to the general public. Back when the Second Edition of Modern Reloading came out, it mentioned the tester. When I could not find it on the Lee Web site I contacted them. At the time they were waiting for the microscope problems to be resolved. I was allowed to buy just the tools and used my own machinist scope. Later I added the Lee Microscope to my kit.

I no longer cast for sale but used to sell thousands of bullets to shooters every month. Several of my customers had standing monthly orders for 5000 bullets. They reported they were the most accurate they had used.

I kept my alloy adjusted using the Lee Tester.