Analyze my target please

[chris in va]

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/7444/p1000167j.jpg (http://img828.imageshack.us/i/p1000167j.jpg/)

Brand new Tanfoglio Witness 45, rested
15yd target
Lee TL 230gr RN, drops at .452
Lee ALOX
4.2gr Bullseye (mild load)

I was using a Sig 220 that slugged at 451, haven't slugged the new pistol yet (I know, I know). The 45's are on the bottom paper, right half side. The top target is my CZ 75 with 358 boolit. The Sig 220 didn't shoot very good groups either.

I just feel accuracy could be better. Before sending lead downrange, I fired four FMJ rounds at a different target and they were literally 8" apart, one almost off the paper. The gun has seen about 300 rounds now so I don't think there's any break-in to be done.

Should I ditch the TL mold and get a 'regular' mold and size to say...453? Different weight perhaps?

[Echo]

Chris, my guess is that you shot these offhand (you didn't mention any rest). If so, and you aren't a trained and qualified pistol shot, those targets aren't surprising. So, more info, please.

How many pistol rounds have you fired in the past 5 years? 500? 5,000?

Do you shoot competatively?

Weaver, or Isosceles, or one-handed?

If rested, how?

It seems to me that the problem is the nut that holds the grips - and I mean that in the Nicest Possible Way!

[sisiphunter]

+1 echo. The load sounds decent. hard to tell without being there, but usually the first thing to fix with most shooters loads is the shooter....it is with me too somedays, then every once in a while, watch out. :)

[chris in va]

Brand new Tanfoglio Witness 45, rested

It wasn't offhand, sitting and rested.

[AzShooter]

Make sure you are watching the sights and not watching where you think the bullet is going.

The high and low shots are from you lifting your head at the last second and "looking over the sights."

Put a paster on the paper and then concentrate on the front sight not moving off that dot. Smooth trigger pull and let it come back straight through.

Your groups will improve.

[stephen perry]

The top target is not bad. You need to get some targets with an aiming point. There are some target sites on the computer that you can print off of. A simple paper like you have with a 2 inch black aiming square would be fine. Focus on the aiming square not your last shot, things will get better. The bottom target for now slow down make each shot count. The flyers are obviously a flinch or two. Get control of those grips maybe drop your load a 1/2 grn your reacting to the recoil thus the flyers.

More time in will not correct your basic problems only amplify them and sour your desire to perform. Mastering your shooting technique will come if you learn to focus on why you are shooting. Not to put you off but the NRA has self help info developing your pistol shooting. Check them by an NRA pistol search. Good times ahead for you.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[slim1836]

The following site may help you with your technique: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-23-35/chap2.htm

[casterofboolits]

I have two EAA Witness' in 38 Super, one 40S&W and an FIE in 41AE/9mm All are decent shooters.

I have experience with five of the EAA's in 45 ACP and all were poor performers. Of course this was the first year the 45 EAA was on the market and they may have worked the bugs out of them by now.

+1 on using an aiming point. I use a two inch Targ Dot as an aiming point.

[Bass Ackward]

Before sending lead downrange, I fired four FMJ rounds at a different target and they were literally 8" apart, one almost off the paper.


This statement is the advice disqualifier for me.

Some guns will shoot lead over top of copper, most of the ones I have / had would not. Often with disastrous results.

So trying to offer you advice now is somewhat limited. I would offer that if you are thinking about changing diameters, why not try and borrow a few bullets of the same type from someone of that diameter and see if they even will chamber.

You probably don't want to hear this, but because of the wild accuracy with copper, the bore could be larger diameter or have lower rifling height. Could be many issues here, slugging would answer some of them though. :grin:

[Hafast]

Clean the barrel. You should do a thorough cleaning when changing types of bullet. A copper build up will keep lead bullets from performing properly and visa-versa.

[mpmarty]

I have not one, not two but three Witness pistols. All in 10mm and I consistently shoot 6" groups at 100 yards with them with stock iron sights. I've got 1911s and Xds in 45acp and they will all print five shot cloverleaf holes at 15 yards from a good rest.

Get your hands on a .22 rimfire target pistol and shoot a bunch. You will learn what to do and develop skills needed to shrink your group size after some time.

I started shooting with a Daisy BB gun at age six and was lighting kitchen matches at ten yards before my dad allowed me to have a real firearm.

Don't let those large groups discourage you. We all had to learn this skill somewhere at sometime.

[Larry Gibson]

Quite frankly at 15 yards with standard semi autos I've never been able to tell any difference in accuracy from shooting lead after copper, visa versa or even mixing them. Mike Venturino did an excellent article on that issue and I agree. Unless you are shooting for under moa at 100+ yards with a rifle capable of knowing the difference there isn't going to be any difference. The only caveat is if either the lead or the J bullets are causing substantial fouling. Even then I doubt you'ld notice much difference at 15 yards.

The problem has already been addressed by a couple posters; it appears you are anticipating the shot and are focusing on the target as you pull the triger and you do not have a distinct aiming point. As mentioned focus on the front sight all the way through the shot into the "follow through", call the shot and then look for the bullet hole. Also put a 1" black paster or dot or even better a 1" thick inverted "T" as an aiming point. Your groups should improve using those fundementals of marksmanship but remember that next to a smooth trigger pull focusing on the tip of the front sight is most important for good shooting. If you are then shooting well and you get vertical stringing it is because the load is too mild for the heavy bullet and the pistol is unlocking inconsistently. If so increase the charge of Bullseye to 5 gr. If you want a milder recoiling load then go to a lighter bullet.

Larry Gibson

[geargnasher]

If you can barely hit the paper with jacketed boolits, it ain't the cast boolit's fault they won't group.

Take the above advice and work on your shooting technique, particularly sight picture, trigger squeeze, and FIRM GRIP. Consistent, firm grip and trigger squeeze are everything when shooting an auto. You need to be in shape, have strong or at least toned arms and wrists or you won't be able to hold the gun well, even from a rest. A rest is only to steady, not to support. It's your hands that support the gun through the initial recoil until the boolit exits the muzzle, and you'll fling shots all over the place even with a perfect sight picture at trigger break if you don't STILL have a good sight picture when the boolit actually clears the gun. You have to hold that gun hard all the way through recoil, and that takes practice using the correct techniques.

Gear

[Doby45]

You aren't holding your weapon like this are ya?

http://corneredcat.com/Images5/sm_Teacup.jpg

[ReloaderFred]

The 6 most important words in pistol shooting are, "Front Sight, Front Sight, Front Sight". If you're not looking at the front sight, you're looking at the target, which means you're moving the sights out of the way so you can see the target better.

I've got about a dozen Witnesses in every caliber they offer, plus 5 calibers they don't offer (9x21, 9x23, 9x25, 357 Sig and .41 AE). Several of those are in .45 acp, and every one of them is a shooter. They will put cast, plated or jacketed bullets into one hole clusters at 15 yards from a sandbag rest, as long as I do my part.

I would suggest having someone you know to be an excellent shooter try the pistol and see what they do with it.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[gray wolf]

I would suggest having someone you know to be an excellent shooter try the pistol and see what they do with it.


If you can barely hit the paper with jacketed boo lits, it ain't the cast Beloit's fault they won't group.

Take the above advice and work on your shooting technique, particularly sight picture, trigger squeeze, and FIRM GRIP. Consistent, firm grip and trigger squeeze are everything when shooting an auto. You need to be in shape, have strong or at least toned arms and wrists or you won't be able to hold the gun well, even from a rest. A rest is only to steady, not to support. It's your hands that support the gun through the initial recoil until the boo lit exits the muzzle, and you'll fling shots all over the place even with a perfect sight picture at trigger break if you don't STILL have a good sight picture when the boo lit actually clears the gun. You have to hold that gun hard all the way through recoil, and that takes practice using the correct techniques.


The problem has already been addressed by a couple posters; it appears you are anticipating the shot and are focusing on the target as you pull the trigger and you do not have a distinct aiming point. As mentioned focus on the front sight all the way through the shot into the "follow through", call the shot and then look for the bullet hole. Also put a 1" black paster or dot or even better a 1" thick inverted "T" as an aiming point. Your groups should improve using those fundamentals of marksmanship but remember that next to a smooth trigger pull focusing on the tip of the front sight is most important for good shooting. If you are then shooting well and you get vertical stringing it is because the load is too mild for the heavy bullet and the pistol is unlocking inconsistently. If so increase the charge of Bullseye to 5 gr. If you want a milder recoiling load then go to a lighter bullet.


Please re read the quotes above.
I shoot the Lyman 225 LRN with 4.3 of B/E or 4.3 of tite group all day long and it functions
2/ 1911's just fine. using 16# springs.
I use the same B/E load for a 200 grain #68 SWC. Again --no problems.
They will cut a smaller than golf ball hole at 25 yards, over and over again.
It's a nice mild load for target and wont beet up your pistol.
You need to practice a lot more using the PROPER shooting skills. From a rest and free hand/be it one or two hand. If you don't know what they are you need to learn them and practice them.
Shooting a hand gun is not something you just do, it takes quite a lot of work.
Difficult but not impossible. You can shoot another 5,000 rounds and if you don't correct what you are doing your shooting is not going to look any better.
at 15 yards form a rest, I am not impressed with your targets. I know you can do better.
Standing at the same distance and under pressure I don't believe you could do
what I call combat accurate.
You can't test a bullet or a load, or even a pistol till you can shoot a little better than what you are doing. The pistol is shooting you--you need to shoot the pistol.
Shoot into the target and not at it.

[Harter66]

Ok I'm going to plead guilty to apples and oranges now . My examples are 357s a S&W,a Taurus,a RBH,and a Sec.6. Now the BlackHawk and the S&W don't seem to care what goes down the bore , 50yrd groups were often. Less than 8" off handed box after box. The Sec6 has been a challenge but at last the other 5 holes shoot to the flyer. Now that Taurus was special case 1100fps or less it would shoot it all from 85gns to 200. Up to 100gns could be driven as hard as you like and give 4" 25 yrd groups and 6" at 50. When you went over 1100fps wit 110+s went wild , I had a BlueDot load not 1 of 18 hit an 8.5x11at 25yrds.

I guess my point is that it maybe the bullet wt and not the operater in this case or maybe its just a no shooting pistol I've seen that once or twice.

I'd say clean it thoroly ,bushings,bbl,slide,etc. Then try it again . I'd do it as if I were working up a new load in little steps from the minimum and go up ,you may find the load anywhere along the way or you may find that it just doesn't like that bullet or powder.

Its aleinating to people when you more or less tell them to learn how to shoot then try it again . I'm just saying is all..

[chris in va]

Guys, seriously...I know how to shoot off a rest. Believe me it's not an issue with my 'shooting skills'.

I'm asking what can be done about the inaccuracy issues, whether it's the boolit size, type or weight. Hopefully it's not a gun issue. My 9mm had the same problem, turned out to be a boolit fit issue and resolved by sizing .003 over slug.

If it makes everyone at ease I will re-test using a regular target or aiming point and only shoot lead boolits instead of starting with a baseline using FMJ. I'll even fire at 7 yards if necessary.


Its aleinating to people when you more or less tell them to learn how to shoot then try it again

Thank you, my thoughts exactly.

[Box13]

I dont know about the targets...All I see are a couple of naked girls...

[Edubya]

Chris, I'm not as good of a shot as some of these other guys are and, in fact, I happen to be blessed with a good friend that can out shoot me and most the people that I've seen shoot. When I really want to try out a new gun or a completely new load, i.e., new mould, I invite him to the range with me. We'll meet there and invariably his groups, with my gun and my boolits, are half the size of mine.
His constant advice is: Front sight, front sight, trigger, trigger front sight. The idea is to concentrate on that sight but never jerk the trigger.
I have shot a couple of 25 yard groups with my .45 commander model 1.5". I am guilty of looking up to see where the previous shot went and that is what opens up my groups every time. I think that I must have ADD. Usually, my first group (I consider a group of a cylinder full, not 5 shots) will be the best of the day with a particular gun. If I shoot fifty rounds or 500 rounds, the first will end up being the one that follows me home.

EW

[chris in va]

I dont know about the targets...All I see are a couple of naked girls...

I see you passed my target Rorschach test.:grin:

[noylj]

1) what were you aiming at?
2) Groups look ok for free standing shooting with no fixed aiming point
3) Always clean barrel thoroughly between cast and jacketed. Do not shoot some jacketed to "clean" your barrel of lead
3) Do you normally shoot much smaller groups with that gun?
4) Get a rest, they are very expensive unless you want an expensive metal one. Sit down. Aim carefully.
5) I am jealous of people who can actually focus on the front sight. I can not. As soon as the front sight gets close to the rear sight, my eyes just sort of cross and the target becomes clear. After 35 years of trying (and still try), I can not do it. Limits me to about 2" at 25 yards, but I can shot cloverleaves inside 15 yards.
The best I can do is with a REALLY wide rear sight, like on my Benelli and Hammerli, with a wide gap that gives me a fiar amount of light on each side of the front sight, I can more easily focus on the front sight.
What I do with most iron sights is to concentrate on ensuring that the dark and light halos of the front sight line up with the dark and light halos of the rear sight.
The biggest secret is to have the same sight picture every time.

[chris in va]

1. Shot once, aimed for that point from then on.
2. Rested, not free standing.
3. Shot 4 jacketed out of a clean barrel, the rest were lead.
4. See #2.
5. Ditto, the front sight just doesn't come into focus for me. I did the best I could.

Here's the deal, I will test my Sig 220 with these boolits as well, and try harder to get better groups with the Witness. If the Sig 'cloverleafs', the Witness is up for sale.

[Echo]

Some shooting glasses would undoubtedly help. Get the cheapest single-vision glasses you can with about a 1 diopter change from distance vision (+ or -, depending on whether you are near- or far-sighted). That works for me (and my opthalmologist). Or maybe get a new exam and tell the optical person you want to focus out at the end of your hand. Costco comes to mind.

[MtGun44]

What target? You don't have any targets, just backer paper.

You cannot shoot good tight groups without a well defined aiming point.

Until you fix this, and a black magic marker making a hand drawn 1" square is
just fine, you will not be able to show what your skills, the gun and the load
can do.

Bill

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Once there are two holes in the paper which one do you aim for? when there are five holes which one do you aim for?

Having a consistent spot to aim for, will help my $0.02 . . .

[geargnasher]

http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/7444/p1000167j.jpg (http://img828.imageshack.us/i/p1000167j.jpg/)

Brand new Tanfoglio Witness 45, rested
15yd target
Lee TL 230gr RN, drops at .452
Lee ALOX
4.2gr Bullseye (mild load)

I was using a Sig 220 that slugged at 451, haven't slugged the new pistol yet (I know, I know). The 45's are on the bottom paper, right half side. The top target is my CZ 75 with 358 boolit. The Sig 220 didn't shoot very good groups either.

I just feel accuracy could be better. Before sending lead downrange, I fired four FMJ rounds at a different target and they were literally 8" apart, one almost off the paper. The gun has seen about 300 rounds now so I don't think there's any break-in to be done.

Should I ditch the TL mold and get a 'regular' mold and size to say...453? Different weight perhaps?

What you have should be working a lot better than it is. You're barking up the wrong tree. I doubt, although it is possible, that there is something wrong with your Tanfoglio. The Sig doesn't shoot well for you, either. Nobody is trying to insult you, but if we all patronize you like a two-year-old and say "oh, it must be the gun, or the Lee snot, or the boolit style, etc." we aren't doing you any favors. You wanted target analysis, that's what you got. You post rested 15-yard groups from two different guns with the best one "patterning" at four inches, IT AIN'T THE LOAD OR THE GUNS. I'm not a great pistol shot and I can and have shot sub 2" groups at 15 yards single-handed, offhand. You would have a VERY difficult time intentionally botching your reloads in a way that would CAUSE them to be that inaccurate and they still function in the gun. So, again, please take the well-meant if somewhat tough advice so many of us gave you about learing how to shoot.

The dead-ringer for me is still your comment about "Before sending lead downrange, I fired four FMJ rounds at a different target and they were literally 8" apart, one almost off the paper.". Like I said, if that is true, it ain't your reloads causing the issue. Two guns, three different loads, still patterning, what other variable is there?

Gear

[cajun shooter]

At one of my S&W semi-auto schools we kept our weapons at a ready stage at all times as we had no idea when an instructor would yell out He's got a gun! Your response was to double tap each time. One to the chest and one to the head as so many bad guys now wear body armour. The first day of school was a wring out of your weapon and testing your shooting techniques. They had you stand 10 yards in front of a target which had a plain piece of 8x11 in it's center. On command you fired your first shot as close as possible to the center of that paper. From then on your aiming point was your first bullet hole. This test will show real fast where you need help. One thing that I have noticed reading this post is that you became defensive after a few of the postings. If you ask for help and don't like the answer then that is your first problem. This is constructive criticism and is meant to help not harm. I would also advise you to see an eye doctor. I had a student at LSU Law Enforcement Training that was on the verge of being washed out because of his shooting. Every instructor in the school had taken a shot at helping him to no avail. My first question after the test I told you about was has any one told you to go to the eye doctor? His answer was NO! I told him to leave school that day and go. He came back jumping up and down with tears in his eyes telling me that I saved his career. He was now able to keep focus on the front sight and pass the final test. I am now 63 and I have a special set of glasses to shoot with. My right eye can see the front sight in perfect focus and the target is blurred. My left eye is set for infinity. I hope you find your problem. Later David