how fast can you push plain base boolits?

[jeff223]

im talking non gas checked plain based boolits.if i were to use a good lube and a hard boolit just how fast can i push them without leading?wheel weight lead boolits that have been water quenched is as hard as they are going to get for me

what have you found to be the limit?

[Larry Gibson]

im talking non gas checked plain based boolits.if i were to use a good lube and a hard boolit just how fast can i push them without leading?wheel weight lead boolits that have been water quenched is as hard as they are going to get for me

what have you found to be the limit?

There are of course variables but it is my experience that WW's hardened as you've done will provide respectable accuracy up through 1400 fps in magnum revolvers and up to around 1650 -1700 fps in rifles. Best accuracy is in the 900-1100 fps range with revolvers and around 1400 +/- fps with rifles. Flat based bullets will generally give better accuracy than bevel based bullets and will hold accuracy to a slightly higher velocity.

Larry Gibson

[Bass Ackward]

im talking non gas checked plain based boolits.if i were to use a good lube and a hard boolit just how fast can i push them without leading?wheel weight lead boolits that have been water quenched is as hard as they are going to get for me

what have you found to be the limit?


Jeff,

Jack once said he used PSB to get them up to 3000 fps without leading or going ka-fluey. I don't remember what caliber, but this would seem to be tied to bullet weight like everything else. Less weight, less inertia and thus less pressure on the base.

[charger 1]

Jeff,

Jack once said he used PSB to get them up to 3000 fps without leading or going ka-fluey. I don't remember what caliber, but this would seem to be tied to bullet weight like everything else. Less weight, less inertia and thus less pressure on the base.

Therefore going back to a post I got mild flack on,would it not be more a function of what pressure (in the true meaning of Pounds Per Sq In)than actual fps...fps of 1800fps in a 223 can go either way on GC. 1800fps on a 45 cal 450 grainer,is the same fps yet all things being equal I'd check the 45 first. I think we can tie that pretty directly to pressure. Likewise when lee publishes the lit that comes with the hardness tester it does not coralate BN to speed but to pressure

[DonH]

This an area where some cutting edge experimenting has been going on in ASSRA circles. Perhaps Dale53 might chime in. Of course ASSRA shooting is extreme-accuracy oriented but is all done with plainbase bullets. A couple of old-time singleshot, lead bullet shooters have been doing some high tech work on bullet design and accuracy. I overheard the shooting half of this team speak of shooting at velocities above 1700 fps though his record-setting load is more like 1500+. This is done with bullets cast from an alloy on the order of 1:25 tin-to-lead, .32 caliber and fired from a .357 Mag case necked down to .32 and loaded behind breechseated bullets.
The bullets involved in this shooting are of Barry Darr design and have small lube grooves - carrying much less lube than traditionally thought necessary. Leading has not been a problem to my knowledge (except possibly at the upper extreme) though as previously stated best accuracy has been attained below maximum attainable velocities. I would not have thought that to be possible. Pressures reached in some of this testing have been quite high because I have heard mention of having loosened primerr pockets.
I hope these guys can publish their work because many long-held beliefs will go by the wayside in terms of bullet shape, lubes, velocities, etc.

[45 2.1]

Here is the "secret" to getting velocity with a plain base boolit: protect the base. That is all there is to it. Some methods are better than others and produce good accuracy also. Several methods are: freechecks, wads of all types, fillers of all types, paper patching, moly coating, copper coating, sabots, special loadings etc.

[felix]

Yep, that is the secret, allright! No filler is needed when the obturation is perfect for the load combo. But, how often does that happen? Day in and day out, that is. Target guns don't have to worry about day in and day out loads, because they are typically adjusted at the bench for the conditions. Making fixed ammo most consistent is the number one challenge for 99 percent of us on this board. ... felix

[Bullshop]

I aint no cutting edge guy but I would like to tell about a hunting load I worked up for my new Marlin 45/70 XLR. This is a new out of the box rifle. No jackets through it or lapping or preconditioning of any kind. I mention this because it will blast another myth too.
Using my standerd duplex smokless long range target load I tried three different long range boolits in three shot 100 yard groups. All boolits were soft 30/1 alloy lubed with BS #2. No wads! Cases unsized and boolits set on the powder.
The Lyman Postell and the RCBS/BPS both grouped at 1" while the Seaco went about 2". I thought very interesting. Lets see more.
Next up was my modified RCBS 525 ****. This mold has had the gc milled off so it now drops a 480gn (pure lead) fnpb. I cast these in pure lead for the White ML guys so thought to try some in the Marlin.
Using the same duplex smokless load but adding a free check over the powder I have a constistant 2" 100 yard grouper with pure lead( scrap sheet and pipe) at (get this) an average velocity 10 feet from the muzzle of 1574 fps. Get that !!! Pure lead at 1574 fps w/o a gas check from a new barrel with good hunting accuracy. Some may scoff at a 2" 100 yard grouper but I feel for a rifle that has a 150 yard limit that will do just fine.
Now then I guess we better rethink some of the old rules again.
BIC/BS

[45 2.1]

I aint no cutting edge guy but I would like to tell about a hunting load I worked up for my new Marlin 45/70 XLR. This is a new out of the box rifle. No jackets through it or lapping or preconditioning of any kind. I mention this because it will blast another myth too.
Using my standerd duplex smokless long range target load I tried three different long range boolits in three shot 100 yard groups. All boolits were soft 30/1 alloy lubed with BS #2. No wads! Cases unsized and boolits set on the powder.
The Lyman Postell and the RCBS/BPS both grouped at 1" while the Seaco went about 2". I thought very interesting. Lets see more.
Next up was my modified RCBS 525 ****. This mold has had the gc milled off so it now drops a 480gn (pure lead) fnpb. I cast these in pure lead for the White ML guys so thought to try some in the Marlin.
Using the same duplex smokless load but adding a free check over the powder I have a constistant 2" 100 yard grouper with pure lead( scrap sheet and pipe) at (get this) an average velocity 10 feet from the muzzle of 1574 fps. Get that !!! Pure lead at 1574 fps w/o a gas check from a new barrel with good hunting accuracy. Some may scoff at a 2" 100 yard grouper but I feel for a rifle that has a 150 yard limit that will do just fine.
Now then I guess we better rethink some of the old rules again.
BIC/BS

Good show. Thats one kind of special loading. If you recover any of the boolits, you will find the base shows perfect sideways imprints of the powder you used. Kind of neat to see that.

[Bass Ackward]

No jackets through it or lapping or preconditioning of any kind. I mention this because it will blast another myth too. Now then I guess we better rethink some of the old rules again.
BIC/BS


Dan,

OK. I give up. What was the other myth? Soft lead or barrel break-in?

[Bullshop]

B. A.
The one I was pointing at most was barrel break in. I have so often read that you cant shoot cast until you shoot a number of jackets through first, or in some way smooth the barrel.
While we are at it I dont go for the cant switch from bullet to boolit or visa versa without cleaning, but thats another deal aint it.
Could be the Marlin/Ballard rifling is the best for cast from any production rifle.
As for the soft lead I dont think anyone has been foolish enough to assign a number for the velocity limit. Gotta admit myself I thought it would be lower than 1574 for good accuracy with soft lead. Again it points a favorible finger at ballard rifling. This rifle aint goin on the sale rack.

45 2.1
The berm at my range is soft dirt free from rocks of any kind. Rocks are just plain hard to find on my property. I have recoverd many of these boolits and they are well expanded. I can post some pics if you would like. Anyway you bet the ones shot without wad or free check have the dimples.
Let me tell ya another interesting thing I have found. With loads that have the base of the boolit well inside the case with driving bands exposed inside I see the same powder dimpling on those exposed driving bands.
I have a load for the 30/30 that shoots a 200 gn LBT, LFN that must be seated this way. The thing is its the most accurate load I have found for the 30/30. Maybe it even helps, like knerling that traps fouling and carries it out??? Hornady swaged ring a bell?
BIC/BS

[Bass Ackward]

B. A.
The one I was pointing at most was barrel break in. I have so often read that you cant shoot cast until you shoot a number of jackets through first, or in some way smooth the barrel.
While we are at it I dont go for the cant switch from bullet to boolit or visa versa without cleaning, but thats another deal aint it.



Dan,

I .... don't think that really shows break-in requirements if you ask me. If there are imperfections in a barrel they can be subtle or abrupt, there are two ways around them.

One is really soft lead so that as a bullet deforms, it is re-obturated. That is a principal BP guys live with all the time whether their barrels are broken in or not. And in fact, ol'time muzzle loaders used to go in to have their muzzle loaders .... refreshed. That means the groove roughed up again. Not exactly what most guys would want to have done today. And they shot .... soft lead.

The other way that makes it hard to tell about break-in is with very hard lead. Hard lead has a springback quality that you notice when sizing your bullets. Well, your barrel is just another sizer. Hard lead is the worst to use for break in because all it ever does is polish in the dimensional imperfections. This is the trap that got me on my 700 Remington. I started with the 311284 and 20 grains of 4759 (1700 fps) and was shooting right at 1". Sounds good huh? Oh boy I say, and immediately I jump to HV cast. A light load by my standards today, stuck the bolt badly. Today that 311284 load is 1/2".

Of coarse 1 of every 1000 may not need it. That's about the ratio to get a benchrest quality tube. But you won't really know that for sure until you cross that mountain and have either have a hundred rounds of copper or about 1000 to 3000 rounds of lead depending on the hardness and the percentage of antimony.

Let's see as time rolls on.

[hubel458]

Real big bullets can go very fast. My 12GA FH put heat
treated hard Dixie 600 gr slugs over 3000 fps, one
load over 3200. Dixie uses no gaschecks, uses a liquid
alox wash for a real thin good non messy lube.No leading
problems, pressures ok.Ed

[waksupi]

Real big bullets can go very fast. My 12GA FH put heat
treated hard Dixie 600 gr slugs over 3000 fps, one
load over 3200. Dixie uses no gaschecks, uses a liquid
alox wash for a real thin good non messy lube.No leading
problems, pressures ok.Ed

I want to see that!

I'm throwing the BS flag!

I shoot African dangerous game rifles regularly at work, with lighter slugs, several hundred fps under that. And some of these are "disconcerting".
I bet those would make your eyes cross, your knees buckle, and a severe, involuntary wetting of the trousers. Check your chrony! Or, put wheels on that weapon. What are you shooting these out of, anyway? The pressures are "probably(ya think?)" on the warm side. Definitely nothing I would shoot from a shotgun.

Drop a couple thousand fps off of that, and I may be able to swallow again.

[357maximum]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=7916

I would not raise the BS flag,, but I will raise my own big white flag, I would shoot it once just to say I did it, twice might be a hard sell.

[charger 1]

I want to see that!

I'm throwing the BS flag!

I shoot African dangerous game rifles regularly at work, with lighter slugs, several hundred fps under that. And some of these are "disconcerting".
I bet those would make your eyes cross, your knees buckle, and a severe, involuntary wetting of the trousers. Check your chrony! Or, put wheels on that weapon. What are you shooting these out of, anyway? The pressures are "probably(ya think?)" on the warm side. Definitely nothing I would shoot from a shotgun.

Drop a couple thousand fps off of that, and I may be able to swallow again.

Oh he has a gun on wheels that does it no doubt. Cant say exactly why,but I guess it does happen:roll:

[waksupi]

Well, maybe not the BS flag. Just the thought of shooting that, hurt my shoulder, and made my nose run.

[Bullshop]

OK OK let me get this straight. Last year when I was messin with PB boolits in 22 cal and doin real good B.A. was tellin me its because I am shootin a 22 and the weeny little boolits is the easiest one to make shoot fast and good.
Now is this fella sayin its the big ones that do best. So whutzit !
BA explained the whole reason why it was little ones now somebody drops this bomb on my perfect world and blows it all to -------- !!!
BIC/BS/Confused

[hubel458]

Read our thread about 12GA From Hell. Gun don't
kick bad as it is 25 lbs. Cartridge case holds 320 grains
of ball powder, which is why it is easier to get real big
bore bullets fast, whether hardened cast or jacketed.
And it's at 30-35,000 psi peak pressure.
My fellow screwball who gave the cartridge the name, has
it in a gun that takes 70,000 psi pressures and he got 1000gr
bullet to 3200 fps. He said recoil was severe, and didn't
do it all day.Here is pic of mine, no wheels, but good balance
and real thick recoil pad.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/redone.jpg

[charger 1]

Read our thread about 12GA From Hell. Gun don't
kick bad as it is 25 lbs. Cartridge case holds 320 grains
of ball powder, which is why it is easier to get real big
bore bullets fast, whether hardened cast or jacketed.
And it's at 30-35,000 psi peak pressure.
My fellow screwball who gave the cartridge the name, has
it in a gun that takes 70,000 psi pressures and he got 1000gr
bullet to 3200 fps. He said recoil was severe, and didn't
do it all day.Here is pic of mine, no wheels, but good balance
and real thick recoil pad.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/redone.jpg

Whats it scoped with?All the calculators I have say your recoil is at a speed approaching 40 fps with 550 ft/lbs......I guess the silliness of this didnt REALLY hit me till I calculated that..Wheres that BS flag?

[hubel458]

Your recoil stuff is way high. Gun is 25 lbs, Robs
is heavier. My recoil formula shows about 145
ft lbs actual, doing the push(the work) with
25.5 lb gun.I have had little skinny guys shoot mine and other
than the effort to hold it up they said it was easy. Watching them the muzzle only went up 6-8 inches.Recoil would be harder on Rob's heavy loads but still manageable with experience as a
big gun and 50 cal shooter that he has, but his is heavier.
We got guy on AR who just got 4 bore shooting 2000 grain bullets and he fired it over a dozen times a couple
weeks ago on a Sat.Ed

[Bass Ackward]

We got guy on AR who just got 4 bore shooting 2000 grain bullets and he fired it over a dozen times a couple
weeks ago on a Sat.Ed

Hey Hub,

What twist rate you running on that outfit?

[hubel458]

If you asking about our 12 ga-Rob's 1 to 20-Mine,
the Savage is 1 to 20, NEF 1 to 35.
If asking about his 4bore not sure but maybe 1 to 28.
It is one of the doubles from Ken Owen in TN.Ed