458 american

[ka0tqv]

Read in an older gun book on taking an Enfield and converting it into a 458 AMERICAN. They used a 264 Winchester Magnum for the case. I've always been intrigued by that cartridge. Does anyone know of the whereabouts of one of these rifles? Pse use Email addr. Tnx Carl

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[Doc Highwall]

They also cut the 458 Winchester mag down and the modern version is the 450 Marlin that you can get in a lever action.

[Frank46]

From what I remember(CRS) just about any standard magnum case cut to 2" and expanded to 45 caliber will give you a 458 American. Frank

[Mk42gunner]

As I remember reading about this cartridge; the first one was built on a Remington 722 action. Basically you can use any H&H size belted magnum case for the parent brass, just trim it to 2 inches long.

I have been thinking aout it, but don't have a short action with a magnum bolt face. It would make a fine bolt action equivalent to a heavy loaded .45-70. I wonder if a Model 7 has a long enough magazine?


Robert

[Rockydog]

Just be aware that a 458 X 2 American, being made from any magnum case, .264, 7mm, 300 Win, 338 Win, 300H&H, Weatherbys, etc., will also chamber and fire in most magnum guns!!!
When some unitiated rube tries a 458 x 2 with a 7mm headstamp that he purchased at your estate in his 7mm mag it won't be pretty. We talk about barrels slightly swaging cast boolits but .458 to 7mm just won't happen. I'd like a 458 x2 myself but will probably end up using a 450 Marlin as the belt is slightly taller, keeping it from chambering in another mag caliber. I think any Savage 7 mag or 300 Win mag could easily be rebarreled and should feed from the magazine with very little work. RD

[softpoint]

I've wanted a .458x2 for a long time. Cartridge is supposed to work fine in a .308 length short action. I have a Stevens 200 in 7/08 that I am thinking of converting.
Actually one of the advantages of the cartridge is the fact that any magnum brass can be used.

[Doc Highwall]

One of the guys at the club made a bolt action in 450 Marlin and you have to be careful how the belts align in the magazine or you will have feeding problems. If I recall Marlin made the belt different then the belt on the 458 Win mag so it could not be shot in the 458 Win causing a problem. It might be easier to just down load a 458 Win.

[Trapshooter]

I've hopefully solved the reformed brass identification problem by using an electro-pencil to obliterate the original headstamp marking on brass that I've converted to a different caliber. It only takes a few seconds, and is good for the remaining life of the case. It's not foolproof, in fact, it doesn't even take a high grade fool to circumvent it, but it would give an uninformed thinking person a sporting chance.

In George Nonte's Modern Reloading book, he recommended modifying a 1/2" drill bit to scrape a ring around the primer to get rid of the old marking. He even suggested getting a set of 1//16" metal stamps to re-mark the shells with the new caliber. That seemed like too much work to me.:smile:

Trapshooter

[chboats]

I have had a 458 American for over 25 years and love it. The gun was built up on a Siamese mauser action with a 20" barrel. The chamber was cut with a long lead so when I seat my boolits out to the rifling the cartrige is long enough that it can not be chambered in any but the very longest magnums. If I was going to do it to day I would just get a 450 marlin. Had to do a lot of work on the magazine box and follower to get it to feed properly.

Carl

[softpoint]

I have had a 458 American for over 25 years and love it. The gun was built up on a Siamese mauser action with a 20" barrel. The chamber was cut with a long lead so when I seat my boolits out to the rifling the cartrige is long enough that it can not be chambered in any but the very longest magnums. If I was going to do it to day I would just get a 450 marlin. Had to do a lot of work on the magazine box and follower to get it to feed properly.

Carl

I've thought about the .450 Marlin, instead of the .458x2, but I'm wondering about brass availability in the future. Of course it may be around forever? I'm assuming that that case can't be made from anything else? :castmine:

[Larry Gibson]

The 458 American was made for the standard length M98 Mauser action. If by "enfield" you mean a US M1917 then that action is very suitable for the standard length 458 Winchester magnum. I ould have to go with the standard cartridge to avoid the initial work of making cases and also for the availability of factory ammo. The 458 Win Mag is a very easy cartridge to load cast bullets for. Just my thoughts.

Larry Gibson

[1Shirt]

Rocky Dog speaks words of wisdom! I have a hard time envisioning any one dropping a short 2" 45 cal ctg into a 264 or 7Rem, or 300 win or Wthby, or 375H&H, but know sure as God made little green apples it is possible. That being said, am sure it would chamber in most of these, and that if the extractor picked it up, it would probably fire. Hate to think of the end result of a 45 trying to squeeze down a .264 bbl.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Bass Ackward]

Rocky Dog speaks words of wisdom! I have a hard time envisioning any one dropping a short 2" 45 cal ctg into a 264 or 7Rem, or 300 win or Wthby, or 375H&H, but know sure as God made little green apples it is possible. That being said, am sure it would chamber in most of these, and that if the extractor picked it up, it would probably fire. Hate to think of the end result of a 45 trying to squeeze down a .264 bbl.
1Shirt!:coffeecom


Wrong. Sounds good but I doubt that Hercules could close a bolt on a 458X2 in any other cartridge chamber. All other cartridges have a case taper which the 458 X 2 does not.

I have had at least one since the 70s.

[chboats]

BA - The chamber of my 458 x 2 has a .030 taper from the top of the belt to the mouth. I guess that's what happens when you order a reamer for a non-standard caliber. They are not all the same. I can chamber an empty case in a 300 win mag or a 338 win mag but not in a 7mm mag. A loaded round will not chamber unless the boolit is seated nearly flush with the case mouth. Also Bass have you found that some brands/calibers of brass works better than others. I made all of mine from 264 or 338 Winchester brass. I tried some 300win mag Winchester brass that was too thick below the sholder and had to do a lot of reaming and turning to get it thin enough to be able to chamber a loaded round.

I know that I like shooting mine more than any other rifle I own

Carl

[82nd airborne]

I have messed with large cartridges similar to the 458x2 alot. one thing i have found, go single stack to avoid feeding problems. of course i havent messed with every mag system out there, and im sure someone here has a sucess story with theirs in a double stack, but for the most part, single stacks work better on the big boys like that.

[Rockydog]

Bass Ackward, You may be right, you've owned one and I have not. I'm basing my post on what was told to me by a gunsmith who I talked to about building one for me. Obviously I may have been misinformed. If so, I will again look at the 458 X 2 as, like Softpoint, I wonder about the availability of the 450 Marlin brass in the future. If I built one using a Marlin Chamber and ran into brass shortages I guess I could just face off the barrel to the correct belt depth for the H&H based cases, set the barrel back, and use the reformed magnum brass. Rockydog



Upon further reveiw I've looked at some cartridge dimensions. In the data I looked at the 458 X 2 is .513 just ahead of the belt and .481 at the mouth for a taper of .032. With a length of 2.0 in.
In comparing the other magnums it appears that the empty case would fit in 264 mag, 7mm mag, and .338 win mag. These all have a .490 or .491 dia at the base of the shoulder 2.04 from the base. I suppose a 458 Wad cutter could theoretically be loaded in one of these chambers but who loads .458 WC. Nobody. The 300 Win mag is another story. It mics .489 at the base of the shoulder 2.196 from the base. Now we are beginning to get some room for a short bullet.

When we get to the Weatherbys things really get interesting. Easily enough diameter at the shoulder in 300 and 340 with a base to beginning shoulder dimension of 2.289 to 2.292. The 338-378 and 378 WBy are even longer at 2.340.

The longest of all are the 7 STW and the 8mm Norma Mag. both with a 2.389 base to shoulder dimension with a .487 beginning shoulder dia. Depending on bullet ogive you could easily seat a bullet in the American and chamber it in these guns.

I guess I'll have to make the decision if and when I do the project but if further research bears these dimensions out I'll probably opt for the 450 Marlin for safeties sake. My guns and ammo will probably all go to family. Couldn't bear the thought of one of my grandsons getting hurt because of my decision. RD

[Bass Ackward]

Also Bass have you found that some brands/calibers of brass works better than others. I made all of mine from 264 or 338 Winchester brass. I tried some 300win mag Winchester brass that was too thick below the sholder and had to do a lot of reaming and turning to get it thin enough to be able to chamber a loaded round.

I know that I like shooting mine more than any other rifle I own

Carl



Loaded was what I meant. Never get that 458 pill confused with a 30 even if it were dark and I was blind.

Brass is not necessarily cartridge dependent as much as it is brand dependent. And it varies over the years. So trying to recommend something could be a poor choice. When you start making cases you see why there is so much difference in brass.

I have "unreamed" 458 Norma cases that range from 191 to 193 grains from a box of 50.

I have "reamed" Remington's that range from 213-226 grains per box of 20.

BIG difference huh?

I got a neck reaming die and reamer from RCBS to uniform decades ago. Hate to see what it would be today. But, necessary if you want to shoot softer cast and can't afford the thinner Norma's.

The problem I see is belt consistency. This can vary by several .000. This last one is built on a Savage so I can vary the headspace as (if) needed. All of this contributes to negative accuracy results for the 458X2 if a man isn't experienced enough to work around it.

458 Norma cases are or were simply the top of the line. I still have and use the first box I made back in 72 and the last set I bought in 2004 were still the same if this helps.

[StrawHat]

I have always wanted one but never had the funds to get it built. Mine would have been built on a Swedish Mauser action. Feeding from the magazine should be no harder than any other belted cartridge from a magazine, most good smiths who convert standard bolts to magnum should be able to handle the chore.

Ialso wanted to try the same case necked to 40 but again, never followed through on it.

[clintsfolly]

i have a 450marlin on a savage 110 left hand action with a26' barrel qtr rib banded front sight and sling swivel. (a dangerous whitetail rifle ) Use a 457122 with aa2230 for 2100 . have used Hornaday brass ( not cheap but great)some have that have 10 shots and no losses to splits. have used this combo the take two buck and it works like a bolt of lighting! the bad is feeding is a little ruff (but i have not worked on it)and i found that i am a recoil junkie!! have given a few thoughts of selling as i now have a 458ACCREL and have not looked at or shot it this year. if someone needs a reamer I have one Clint

[Denver]

I thought about building a .458x2" on an Argentine Mauser action I have, but didn"t want to open the bolt face. I played around with some belted magnum cases and made a rebated rim by turning them down to the 06 head size. Might still try it some day.

[StrawHat]

I think the Westley Richards firm did that, the rebated rim, on some of the rifles they built. 425 Westley Richards comes to mind but there may have been others. I know the feed lips have to be perfect to get the things to feed properly.

[Bass Ackward]

Rocky D,

If you want one I wouldn't let interchangeability be an issue. I can shoot factory 308s in my 30-06 and do just to watch the expressions on people's faces. Exchange that for a 358 and it could be a problem. Ruger used to make it's rifles with extremely large freebores that enabled chambering larger calibers.

And I have 35 Whelen brass that is head stamped 30-06. I have 240 Gibbs cases that say 30-06.

My point is that no one that gets off the factory cartridge path (wildcater) looks only at a headstamp for confirmation of should I attempt to fire it once they know they have a reason to look farther.

If you are on this site, I doubt it will be a problem for you either.

[Rockydog]

Bass Ackward, I don't worry about me. I load a couple of wild cats now and would like a Gibbs or two sometime also. I worry about somebody else who might get my stuff some day. I've got a box of fairly hot 45 Colt loads for a TC Contender. In very large print on two sides of the box it's labeled. NOT FOR USE IN COLT SAA OR CLONES!!!! Ruger Red Hawk, Super Blackhawk, or TC Contender/Encore ONLY!!!! I suppose I could put a similar warning on the 458 X 2 Box....RD

[Bull Shoals]

I had a .458 X 2" built in 1974. It was made on a Rem 600 Mag action, 21" douglas bbl with extra recoil lug on the bbl, Fajen full lenght stock glass bedded stock and topped w/a lyman 2.5X scope w/post & X-hair. Rails had to be opened up a touch th facilate feeding. Mag capacity was 3. Weight was 9 #'s loaded.

Cases were made by cutting down 458 Win brass. Load was 49 gr 4198 topped w/ speer 400 gr FN. Accuracy was 3 touching at 100 yds as long as recoil of a bench could be tolerated. Took 2 moose in Canada.

[chboats]

Don't get me wrong, I love my 458 x 2. But why not just get a 45-70 or a full 458 Win. You don't have to load either one to max. But then again, like me you just may want to try something the not many others have

Carl

[BD]

The .45 Pro is another option. Hornady and Bushmaster brought it into the light as the Saami Spec .450 Bushmaster. Brass is available from Hornady, or by cutting down any .284 Win based case. It's cut right at the shoulder so there's no way you'd be able to mischamber it in another .284 based chamber. It burns powders in the H-110, 296 range and a 16 inch barrel will send 300 grain cast boolits downrange at about 2,000 fps, under 45,000 psi.
BD

[lmcollins]

I think that the 450 Marlin has made the 458 x 2 obsolete.

Think for a minute: The 450 Marlin is 2.1 inches long. The 458 x 2 is shorter, requires no case shortening, no case neck reaming, uses redily available dies, and there is even a Lee factory crimp die to use if you want a nonstandard OAL.
Which you do. You want to be able to go to 2.8 OAL like the 308 family of cartridges and use that extra magaziine space.

You need a short action, and the bolt face needs to be opened up to standard belted Mag size. The difference in the 450 is that the belt is longer so that you cannot make cases out of any standard belted mag case. By putting it into a good short action you can up the pressures, and seat to a longer OAL than the standard 450 which was designed to go through a Marlin lever action with its 2.55 OAL.

I wouldn't waste the time and money to use an old 95 or 96 mauser. The magazine would need to be blocked, and there would require much mag work. Not worth the price. I'd cut the chamber with a standard reamer, and them extend the throat with a separate throater to use the extra mag space.

Remember: when you ream out those case necks you'd want to go to a standard depth so all of your cases have the same volume.

[Bass Ackward]

You need a short action, and the bolt face needs to be opened up to standard belted Mag size.


Mine were always on long actions and never had any trouble with feeding. (Mathau, Mod 70s, Savage)

With today's bullets, one can argue that the bore diameter itself is obsolete.

[col.farkle]

I have owned and reloaded for a .458x2 American for about three years now, maybe a little longer.
I am using a Ruger M-77 with a newer slightly more sensitive trigger.
I get good results with moderate loads and use almost any belted magnum brass. I currently have a jig used with a Harbor Freight 2inch saw that cuts all the brass at approx 2.041-2.055 (the difference being in the vibration of he saw blade if I'm pushing it too hard) I have loads for cast as well as jacketed loads, but my preference is for a Hornady 325gr. FTX with 40 grains of Imr4198 as this works in my gun ( I do not recommend using this load unless you work your way up to it, Start at 10% less and ease up to it. YMMV and use at your own risk legal warning)
This is a very effective and accurate round out to 200 yards, about as far as I can see now anyway.
My next buid will be a .458 Socom on a Remington 722 or 700.
And I do it because, well why not.

[DocSavage]

Back in the early 90's I saw a XP 100 that was a switch barrel affair in the 458 American and 375 H&H. Can't say I'd be willing to fire that beast.

[Loudenboomer]

I once read the .458 American saw limited suppressed use in SE Asia. Can any one substantite this??

[condorjohn]

If you check Cartridges Of The World there is a 458 X 1 5/8" designed by the same fellow that designed the 458 American. I believe that's the one used in Viet Nam.

[Loudenboomer]

Yep I bet that's it. If I remember right they were using suppressed sub sonic 500 ish grain bullets for quite a wallop.