Loading cast in 308 issue

[pcctex]

Please excuse if this is an old issue.

Am loading RCBS 180 grain .309 gas checked bullet in 308. New Winchester brass, full length sized, neck chamfered. First attempts seemed to slightly shave the bullets; couldn't keep them on a 12" pie plate at 100 yards. Figured I needed to slightly flare the necks to prevent bullet shaving. I bought a Lee Universal Case Expander die. Slightly flared the case necks. My problem is closing the flare. I don't want to actually crimp the case necks, just close the flare back to sized case dimensions so the round will chamber. Any suggestions?

Also, please tell me if my loading methodology is completely wrong. I've loaded cast in straight wall cases for years....45-70, etc., but this is my first attempt at loading cast in a modern bottleneck case.

Thank you to all,
pcctex

[zuke]

You can use the seating die to bring the case mouth back to spec.
Seat a couple the turn out the seater stem. Loosen the die lock ring and screw in the die a little bit then try the case in again.
Keep screwing in the die till the mouth is where you want itthen lock it down.
On the next batch you'll have to work on bullet seating depth again.

[ubetcha]

Lee also make a factory crimp die that works very good.I shoot a T/C contender in 30-30 and use the crimp die to just close up the flare.I only neck size my cases and use a lyman m-die to flare the case. The crimp die can be adjusted to crimp very tight or just enogh to close the flare

[mrbill2]

Unless you go over board with the flare there's no need to close the flare. I shoot mine without closing. Flare the case and see if it chambers, if it does you can shoot as is or close, it's up to you.

[Tom W.]

Don't feel bad. I tried it once and was making patterns rather than groups. Seems my powder charge wasn't what it should have been...Way wrong.....

[Doc Highwall]

pcctex, we could use a little more information about your load besides that the bullets are sized .309'. I am shooting a 308 Win with SAECO #315 bullet cast 30:1 alloy sized .310" and lubed with Bull Shops NASA lube over 20.5 grains of AA5744 powder. Like most people when they start to load for cast bullets do-not realize that you have to load cast bullets different then jacketed bullets. Lyman makes a M-Die for this and it has a larger diameter expander with a step for flaring the case mouth. I just started a thread in the equipment section about modifying dies for cast bullet shooting for my 308 Win.

[mooman76]

Just adjust your crimp die for no crimp. You can adjust it til you get the desired affect.

[TCLouis]

What I read is you load one load (unknown powder and quantity ) and are surprised with the accuracy.
One gets precision from their loads by changing powder, powder quantity and boolit, one variable at a time. Multiple variables if one can take the range time and maintains their notes

[mpmarty]

PCCTEX WELCOME TO THE FORUM!
I load and shoot 308 win. w/cast boolits and here's what I've found YMMV.
Tumble fired cases
deprime w/ universal decapping die
clean primer pockets, swage if necessary
re-prime w/ hand held tool
go to the Dillon 550 which is set up as follows:
Station #1 Lyman M die to flare the necks
Station #2 powder drop
Station #3 RCBS seater die backed out so not to crimp
Station #4 LEE Factory Crimp Die to close the neck back down on the boolit.

This works quite well for me using 180 gr cast gas checked boolits over moderate charges of 3031 in both my 7.62 AK and my Savage bolt gun.

[Alex Hamilton]

Am loading RCBS 180 grain .309 gas checked bullet in 308. New Winchester brass, full length sized, neck chamfered. First attempts seemed to slightly shave the bullets; couldn't keep them on a 12" pie plate at 100 yards. Figured I needed to slightly flare the necks to prevent bullet shaving. I bought a Lee Universal Case Expander die. Slightly flared the case necks. My problem is closing the flare. I don't want to actually crimp the case necks, just close the flare back to sized case dimensions so the round will chamber. Any suggestions?
pcctex

Shaving bullets during seating is not good for accuracy, but I think you have another problem to get a group that big. You need to give us the complete information about your load. Which powder and what charge would be a start. Have you slugged your barrel and what is the groove size? Have you checked for leading? If not, remove the bolt and have a look at the breech end of the barrel. Can you see any leading?

You can remove the flare with the seating die as others have suggested, but that is purely "cosmetic". If the bolt will close, I would not bother.

Alex

[stephen perry]

I would not flare a bottle neck case like .308. Do this. Use whatever chamfer tool you have and give the inside of the neck 3 turns forward and backward. You should have your shaving of bullet problem licked.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Blammer]

flairing the case neck is the best way to avoid shaving the boolit when seating it. Chamfering the inside of the case mouth will most likely not work well for all of your ammo. It works well with jacketed but not with cast.
It's a good procedure you're following on loading your ammo.

After you have your ammo loaded and you want to make sure you take out the flair try this.

Back out the seating stem a ways so it's not affecting anything. Raise the ram with a cartridge in it, then manually turn the die down about a 1/4 to 1/2 turn, lower ram and inspect the neck.

Keep doing this and you'll soon find where the flair has been 'flattened' or striaghtened out.

If you KEEP going, you'll find that you'll then "crimp". Don't go that far.

now raise the ram with the ammo in it, and then screw in the seating stem until it touches your boolit.

Now the next one you load will seat the boolit to the same depth and take out the flair.

It may take some messin around to get it just right but will work fine from then on.

[Hang Fire]

Unless you go over board with the flare there's no need to close the flare. I shoot mine without closing. Flare the case and see if it chambers, if it does you can shoot as is or close, it's up to you.

Ditto, and if the flare was concentric and they chamber with no problem, they will be near centered to the bore. Nothing new from me, have seen same posted few times on here.

[stephen perry]

Just cause one guys says no that's that's not way things are. I only flare in pistol Cast loading and then not with an M die. I use a plumb bob. There are many ways to do a job don't just listen to loudest mouth, listen to all. Always be wary of someone who insists this is the best way of doing anything in reloading forums.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Alex Hamilton]

Just cause one guys says no that's that's not way things are. I only flare in pistol Cast loading and then not with an M die. I use a plumb bob. There are many ways to do a job don't just listen to loudest mouth, listen to all. Always be wary of someone who insists this is the best way of doing anything in reloading forums.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
Stephen,
It all depends on your definition as to what "works". The M die or a specially made neck expander die are the only option if you want top long range accuracy, especially in rifle cartridges, which may be shot at 300yds and beyond. The first stage of the dedicated neck expander ensures that the case neck is expanded to .002" less than the size of the bullet bearing bands. Then the next stage makes an even flare.

Your plumb bob (or Lee "universal neck expander") puts the flare on the mouth, but the flare will not be even because the neck wall is not evenly thick all the way round and the case is not held firmly but is allowed to move. Following the line of least resistance, the flare will be applied more where the neck wall is thin and when chambered the flare will not let the bullet centre itself.

In addition, all reloading dies for rifle calibers are made to suit the jacketed bullets, so even if you have managed to avoid lead shaving, you could be still seating a lead bullet into the neck that could be up to .005" smaller than the bearing bands! In other words, you are using the relatively soft lead bullet as a neck expander!!!

There is a huge difference between getting away with it and using proper dies and procedures.

Alex

[docone31]

Your new brass is the issue.
It will be neck sized to .308, add flaring to that for the seating, and it is too tight.
After firing, it will be larger.
When I get new brass, I full length size, or collet size and then load. If I still get shaving, I send the die out, with a sample casting, and have the dies modified.