my first cast bullets and handloads: a success and a failure

[craveman85]

well i cast a bunch of 500 grain round nose bullets to use in my 45-70. i reloaded a bunch of them with a lee loader and managed to get it so it wasnt shaving lead off the bullets. so i fired 60 reloads yesterday and could not get a group or even much of a pattern for that matter because it was just a bunch of random fliers. im assuming its the lube or maybe the powder charge i am using. hornady leverevolution ammo puts 3 holes touching at 100 yards with iron sights. 50 yards with my cast bullets and 29 grains of imr 4198 puts me at about 10 inches. thats right 10 inches. ive made sure all my bullets were perfect and all powder charges within a 10th of a grain and bullets are within 4 or 5 grains. i was using lee liquid alox lube but think its going to get changed.

[WHITETAIL]

craveman85, Welcome to the 45-70![smilie=w:
I know that it can be frustrating at times.
So lets start out with one change at a time
and only make up 5 to 10 boolits at each
load to find out what works.
First Question, what gun are you loading for:?:

[Bass Ackward]

well i cast a bunch of 500 grain round nose bullets to use in my 45-70. i reloaded a bunch of them with a lee loader and managed to get it so it wasnt shaving lead off the bullets. so i fired 60 reloads yesterday and could not get a group or even much of a pattern for that matter because it was just a bunch of random fliers. im assuming its the lube or maybe the powder charge i am using. hornady leverevolution ammo puts 3 holes touching at 100 yards with iron sights. 50 yards with my cast bullets and 29 grains of imr 4198 puts me at about 10 inches. thats right 10 inches. ive made sure all my bullets were perfect and all powder charges within a 10th of a grain and bullets are within 4 or 5 grains. i was using lee liquid alox lube but think its going to get changed.


Well, if you went 10", your leaded. Even if you can't see it, it's in there. Use a really white light like an LED penlight and look in there at the base of the rifling to see if / when you ever get it all out.

Bullet fit was your first step and I didn't see you mention anything about that. For Marlin's, you generally need .002 above your bore diameter minimum. Get that one thing right .... and you will be teaching others here as an expert. Use the Search feature at the top for Slugging.

[44man]

Might start with a slower powder that you can still down load safely, maybe 3031 or Reloader 7. I never felt 4198 was kind to cast.

[Linstrum]

Hi, craveman85, Lead shaving while inserting cast projectiles can be a problem if the case mouth isn't belled enough, sometimes it takes a bit of fiddling to get the mouth expander adjusted just right so you get enough of a belled mouth to prevent shaving, but not so much you shorten case life by splitting the mouth after two or three reloads.

We need to know what model rifle you are using, some models of .45-70 are more difficult to get good accuracy from.

Next, did you slug the bore so you know what size cast projectile to use for it? Undersize boolits are one big source of large groups and in a worst case scenario undersize boolits keyhole and will lead the bore very quickly from blow-by that gas cuts the lead. Your cast projectiles should be about 0.001" to 0.002" larger than the groove diameter of your bore, that is why slugging the bore is so important. All of us here slug the bores of our guns, it is part of getting good success with cast.

Let is know a bit more about your particular .45-70, what its bore slugs at, and what size boolit you are using. With a little more information we'll get this figured out.


rl818

[qajaq59]

Slugging the bore is PITA for about 15 minutes. But not slugging it will be a PITA forever. Years ago I had a 30-30 that drove me up the walls for a month until I slugged it and found the bullets just plain didn't fit the rifle. Start there and then work on the rest.

[44man]

Yeah, you need good fit but what I missed was the LLA stuff. What possesses anyone to use the stuff in a revolver let alone a rifle?
I think Bass is correct and you need a Roto Rooter in the bore. :bigsmyl2:

[mooman76]

Slugging the bore is not hard to do at all with the right stuff. Something round like ML RB or one of those egg shaped sinkers work best. Soft lead of corse. They have less bearing surface so they go down easy after they get started, just like a ML. Also, what was the hardness of the lead bullets you used? Soft lead usually works well in the 45-70.

[craveman85]

gun is a nef buffalo classic. i did slug the bore and it came .457 and i have .459 dia bullets. i cleaned the gun thoroughly and after every 5 or 6 shots i run a jacketed bullet through it as well. jacketed bullets always had good accuracy so i know its my loads. i experimented with some lubes but i was retarded and put them in the freezer to cool and it made it brittle and it broke apart. i was thinking of trying a grease cookie if i could find some beeswax.

[qajaq59]

I can't think of his name but there is a guy over in the cast Bullet that sells the bees wax. You might ask over there if no one here has it.

[geargnasher]

Randyrat and Blammer sell beeswax. I have many good buying experiences from Randy, have heard nothing but good about Blammer but haven't done business with him yet.

Gear

[hk33ka1]

I liked the Alox in .45-70 smokeless and it will work in BP but is a mess. I made some homemade lube to try this week with Lard from the grocery and beeswax. 50/50 ish and I'll work from there. Pan lube and cool and it sticks good. Tried some of this as a cookie too.

[45-70]

I'm reading this thread intently. I'm about to cast my first boolits (love that) for my .45-70 Marlin and I'm trying to absorb as much information as possible. Just a quick thank you!

[craveman85]

guess ive got to wait until i get some beeswax. what type of parafin do you use in lube? ive got mineral oil i used in some not so good homemade stuff. couldnt get it to stay in the lube grooves. should i crimp my bullets or leave them as is?

[Wayne Smith]

I'm assuming you are pan lubing. Parafian is typically too hard and brittle to pan lube effectively, it breaks up and pulls out of the grooves. If you have or can get some lanolin it makes the parafin softer and more sticky. Too much and too sticky.

I've dealt with both Randyrat and Blammer with no problems several times. I can recommend them without question.

[Linstrum]

As was already pointed out, paraffin by itself is too brittle at room temperature to work well. Technically speaking, there is only one kind of paraffin wax, the brand names I am familiar with are Gulfwax and Parowax that are sold in the fruit and jam canning supplies section in most supermarkets. Candles aren't always made with paraffin wax, so if a recipe calls for paraffin don't get candles unless you know for sure that they are paraffin. That, and candles can be awful expensive.

Have you tried Johnson's paste wax? I use that for my .50 BMG 500 grain cast "plinker" loads. JPW seems to be mineral spirits and mainly carnauba wax. Whatever it is, it works for me.


rl820

[milkman]

Creaveman85
I shoot a NEF Handi-Rifle, much shorter barrel, in 45-70 with a 500g Lee gas check boolit. I have had not luck at all with 4198, poor groups and leading. My hunting load is 4895 running at about 1500 fps. I also get good accuracy with the 500g with about 15g Herco and a dacron filler. I really wish my rifle would shoot lighter bullets as good as it does the 500s, those dang things will ring your bell. I have been using Felix lube.

[craveman85]

im going to try some darr lube today. ive also got something else i cooked up with random slippery and waxy things i found. dont have any measurements on what i used in that but it feels slippery.

[craveman85]

how many grains of the 4895 are you using milkman. is that imr 4895?

[mroliver77]

I am not an alox fan at all but...
I bought a ranch dog mould for my 38-55 and figured what the hey and used alox per his instructions. It worked well aside from being a pain to apply. Accuracy was great and leading nonexistent.
craveman, why dont you do yourself a favor and start out with a proven lube instead of "everything but the kitchen sink" lube. Make a impression of your "throat" section of the barrel now as if you are not sized to fit it accuracy will be hard won. If nothing else try loading the boolits without sizing them IF they will chamber in your gun. Make a dummy round up to try before making any live rounds.
If I remember correctly the Lee Loader has no provision to bell the case mouths before seating a boolit. If this is so use a pair of needle nose pliers to gently bell the mouths before trying to seat the boolit.
I cannot imagine the powder being responsible for that bad of accuracy(or lack of) unless you are using too much. Lots of folks use 4198 successfully.
I did not see what alloy you are using. The softer the alloy the lighter the charge you can load under it. Keep us updated.
Jay

[craveman85]

its a rather hard alloy. after quenching you cant scratch it with your nail

[44man]

I am not an alox fan at all but...
I bought a ranch dog mould for my 38-55 and figured what the hey and used alox per his instructions. It worked well aside from being a pain to apply. Accuracy was great and leading nonexistent.
craveman, why dont you do yourself a favor and start out with a proven lube instead of "everything but the kitchen sink" lube. Make a impression of your "throat" section of the barrel now as if you are not sized to fit it accuracy will be hard won. If nothing else try loading the boolits without sizing them IF they will chamber in your gun. Make a dummy round up to try before making any live rounds.
If I remember correctly the Lee Loader has no provision to bell the case mouths before seating a boolit. If this is so use a pair of needle nose pliers to gently bell the mouths before trying to seat the boolit.
I cannot imagine the powder being responsible for that bad of accuracy(or lack of) unless you are using too much. Lots of folks use 4198 successfully.
I did not see what alloy you are using. The softer the alloy the lighter the charge you can load under it. Keep us updated.
Jay
4198 works fine with jacketed but I have run into too much trouble with cast.
Using a Lee die set will not make accurate loads with cast either, nor will RCBS. Need Hornady dies. Some die sets are jacketed specific.
Hard lubes or those that just run out are bad. How far does lube go in a long barrel when it is just a coating? We are not shooting a .22!
Most good BPCR lubes work with smokeless but not the other way around.
Paraffin is just too brittle. Small amounts can be used to harden a good lube but don't get carried away. Soft and sticky is best and some lanolin is the key. Beeswax, some kind of oil and lanolin. Felix is great but you can use safflower oil, peanut oil, Ballistol or LubeGard in place of mineral oil and even castor oil alone will work.
The key to Felix lube is the soap that keeps ingredients from separating. Seed based oils can get along without stearates but the stuff will increase the melting point. A good lube might not melt right for pan lubing and might be damaged.
Some do not realize how important lube is for accuracy and how fast the wrong lube will shoot you down. I have made thousands of tests and Felix is my baseline lube.
LBT Blue Soft is good as was their Magnum lube.
Those that like clean boolits with lube only in the grooves that is so hard half falls out in the box, are missing out on accuracy.
Either way, I have had more accuracy problems and more leading problems with Alox then with anything else. I don't care how you mix it. Nice to throw a bunch of boolits in a box, squirt Alox on and roll them around, let them dry and expect to hit anything seems strange to me. It is nothing but the easy way out. I treat EVERY boolit like it is gold and it MUST hit where I aim with no trouble in the gun. I shoot once and a deer falls and even after shooting a gun for a year without cleaning it, one shot and a deer still falls.
Sit and look at the boolit in your hand, that is the one that is important, not the 10,000 quickies you cast as fast as you could and lubed as fast as you could.

[mpmarty]

I've got both Ranch Dog 460 molds for my 45/70 and both shoot quite well with LLA as the lube. I use RL7 at the recommended amounts from the Lyman book. No leading and they fly straight. Marlin 1895 made in the early seventies.

[44man]

I've got both Ranch Dog 460 molds for my 45/70 and both shoot quite well with LLA as the lube. I use RL7 at the recommended amounts from the Lyman book. No leading and they fly straight. Marlin 1895 made in the early seventies.
Have you tried Felix on them? I cut groups in half with RD boolits.

[grouch]

I see two possible problems. First, what is yur alloy? Most of my problems of the magnitude you describe have been alloy related. I use either 20:1 lead and tin or wheel weights + 2% tin. My 45 - 70 prefers the 20:1, but will shoot the other alloy a lot better than 10" at 100yds.
The other possible problem is quality control. Your bullet weight shold not vary by 4 or 5 grains. +/- half a grain would be closer to it.
Hope this helps.
Sometimes a rifle just doesn't like some particular powder. Mine doesn't like 4198 although the books make it look good. Mine is fond of 24 - 25 gr of 2400.
One last thought - what's the twis rate in your barrel? It's probably not the problem, but if it's too slow, your bullets could fail to stabilize.
Good luck. Grouch
Grouch

[craveman85]

im using wheelweights with a little bit of tin. im probably around 18 or 19 to 1 ratio. when i have a bullet that is a little on the heavy side i hit the base with a file once to make it match the others so there all within a grain now. i used some darr lube today and got my groups down to 5 inches at 50 yards with one group being 2 inches. im wondering if my open sights could also be playing a part in this since they cover quite a bit of target even at 50 yards. i may throw a scope on it temporarily to check my grouping a little better.

[qajaq59]

im wondering if my open sights could also be playing a part in this since they cover quite a bit of target even at 50 yards. I had that problem with one of my peep sights. When I switched to a large "X" for a target, it really helped.

[Recluse]

Might start with a slower powder that you can still down load safely, maybe 3031 or Reloader 7. I never felt 4198 was kind to cast.

I'll second that. 4198, me and lead have never got along real well.

Secondly, add some JPW to your LLA for the lubing. I've never had great luck with straight LLA in long-gun boolits. I know others here who have and with the targets to prove it, but I've always preferred to blend JPW in with the alox.

But the big thing is going to be sizing. Get that squared up before you change anything else.

:coffee:

[craveman85]

finally found some beeswax so i can make some better lubes

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

So how does your barrel look?

Usually mixing cast and jacketed cause problems . . . clean out the copper, and any lead, and start with a fresh bore, the copper chore boy works good on the lead, I've been told that 0000 steel wool will also do the job . . . you will need a chemical cleaner for the copper.

Also try just letting them air cool next time you cast, may be a bit hard . . .

[craveman85]

i use regular hoppes bore cleaner if ive been using jacketed bullets. for my bp loads ive been using thompsons center bore cleaner with a ball of steel wool.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

The hoppes won't remove lead or copper, the steelwool I've heard does, but not sure the procedure . . .

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/CopperSolevent004.jpg

The patch on the left came out of a 3 1/16" SP101 . . . the one on the right out of a 4" Security Six

[craveman85]

tried 3 different types of lube with the 4198, 777, pyrodex and sr7. no luck getting good groups with any of them. best looking group was from 777 with 50/50 beeswax and lard. had 3 holes in a 3 inch group at 100 yards but the other 2 were farther apart making it 10 inches. pissed. going to buy a different mold and try some other bullets.

[Wayne Smith]

i cleaned the gun thoroughly and after every 5 or 6 shots i run a jacketed bullet through it as well.

There is one of your problems. Don't combine copper and lead and expect accuracy from the lead. Clean all the copper out of the barrel and then only shoot lead. Then you know what the rifle/boolit is capable of.

[82nd airborne]

sometimes I TL my .50 boolits and they arnt even a TL design. They shoot excellent, so the stuff is not all bad, however, It generally isnt as good as other forms.

[Tom-ADC]

I've been using a modified Emmerts 50% beeswax, 40% Crisco & 10% Lanolin

[craveman85]

all the copper has been cleaned out of the bore. i was having accuracy issues before i even threw any jacketed bullets through it. i think ill get a 450 grain flat point mold this week and give it a try. maybe even 405 if i have to.

[craveman85]

i got some real blackpowder from kittery trading post this week. also got some overpowder wads. i know it will drop my velocity a bit but maybe it will make up for it with some actual accuracy.

[craveman85]

405 grain hollow base lee mold. 68 grains 3f powder. shooting 1.5 inches at 50 yards. now if i can only get it down to that at 100 yards id be ok but still not where i want to be. my 1895 will throw 1 inch 100 yard groups with these bullets from an 18 inch barrel.

[craveman85]

i think my main issue is the lee loader. it almost always shaves lead off of my bullets and it always seems to be on one side and not the other. giving up on the lee. getting a press and dies this week.

[d garfield]

I use Lyman lube(old black stuff) on405 grn. flat noes with 25 grns.4759 for 1300 through the Crony.Very clean shooting and good for about 50 rounds before I use brush and Hoppes bore leaner. Shoots I inch at 100yrds and about 2ins at 200 yrds

IMR 4759 is $122 for 8pounds at PV plus hazard and shipping, still cheaper than store

[home in oz]

Am reading this thread with interst.

What is a good accurate load for the 45-70, Lee Mold 405 grain, using 4198?

Thanks

[d garfield]

Well that is a loaded question. Every gun likes its own load. I am shooting a Quigley Sharps with 34in barrel, It really like the IMR 4759. I started with 25 grns. then it depends on how much recoil you want . 25 to 26 grns is not bad, any more is up to you, I,m 71 and shoot about 200 rds a week.

[Gelandangan]

Craveman, how old is your NEF BC?
I also use BC in 45-70.
I cast Lee 500gn, lube with Lyman GOLD lube,
and load it with AR2206H, some load give me less than 1 inch groups at 100 meters.
Good enough for me to use it to accurately snipe at rabbit heads.

With my BC, the first 200 or so shots, I cannot get any decent result with any load,
but after shooting over 200 shots, the group magically converges and it gets better over time.
I read at GrayBeards Outdoors forum that most BC need to be run in before they get to the optimum result.

So, try again mate, you will do your rifle good :)

[craveman85]

i tried several kinds of powder with the 500 grain bullets and several types of lube as well with no success. best group was 3 inches at 50 yards. with goex 3f im getting 1.5 inch groups at 50 yards at best using beeswax/crisco lube. i was using a 50/40/10 mix of beeswax/crisco/olive oil. but it was too soft in the recent heat so im using 60 40 beeswax crisco. if i shoot loads in the 30000 cup range my gun pops open. damn nef's had an issue with the spring holding it shut. im going to send it to reminton yet again when bear season is over or if i get something with it. my bp loads should be in the 17000 cup range launching the 405's at 1381 fps with 68 grains of 3f. i would like to find some swiss but nobody around here carries it. 777 put me at 1450fps on average with slightly larger groups. going to get a press and try some overprimer wads.

[jonk]

I think your main issue is the Lee loader. Fine tool that it is, I find that it sizes the bullets as you push them through the seating neck. To keep things straight and true, it is cut to accept a .457" bullet...period. Because that's the textbook size for .45/70. Also, the sides of the die are cut straight. Even if you bell your case mouth, the die will remove the bell before you can do anything worth doing. If you're not shaving lead, I can almost promise you that it is because your nice .459" bullets are being sized down as you seat them and are at .457" by the time they enter the die.

Either get a set of dies with a press, or you might be able to lap out the Lee loader a bit.