Firelapping

[sixgunner452]

Has anyone ever done it? Has any one used 320 grit Clover valve paste as apposed to LBT, or Beartooths kit? Beartooths paste is 320 grit, is it Clover paste in disguise? What were the results? Thinking of lapping a stainless 45 Blackhawk. Thanks, Randy.

[David R]

I used valve grinding compound from NAPA and it was too course. My forcing cone looked like I sandblasted it. I don't know what grit it is. It was a smith K38 that leaded like crazy. It doesn't any more after that and 600 of the "other" Boolits.

[Ricochet]

Wonder what it'd do if you used a really fine abrasive, like polishing compound?

[Bass Ackward]

Firelapping is a broad subject. You have to know what needs done to know what grit works or is required. And that can change based on what you are trying to do. You can use jacketed with a finer grit and not need as many or you can run a thousand through with pure lead and not even take the blue out of the bore.

Then comes all the tricks to prevent cutting where you don't want it and only where you do.

Yep. Broad subject.

[sixgunner452]

My need for firelapping is to remove the choke in the barrel where the barrel screws into the frame, and an added benefit would be to smooth and get a tapered barrel. Thanks, Randy.

[TCLouis]

Someone I shoot with used to use Clover valve grinding compound to "Lead Lap" all of his new muzzleloader barrels.

He had a Ruger 338 SS barrel with a rough spot about 2-3 inches long. Funny coated bullets revealed the spot quite plainly.

41 of the Lee 220 grain bullets though that barrel using Turtle Wax Rubbing Compound wax polished out and the last 10 went into about 1 inch at 50 yards with one of Lee's powder dippers full of Unique (I have NO idea which dipper it was now, just appropriate for about 1000 fps in the 338 Mag). Why use 41? That was all cast upI had so we quit at that and it was enough!

He just did a Zipper with some 225415 and fine Clover and I have NOT heard the results.

Used the Turtle Wax material on my Ruger SRH and the rough spot polished out fairly quickly and that gun will deliver C429310s VERY accurately.

I have Clover compound in 200-1000 grit now and don't have have a barrel needing polishing.

[Blackwater]

I've used clover, or something similar. Can't remember specifically, but it was on a Ruger #3 barrel that was rough as a cob, and I mean ROUGH. I'd long thought of replacing the barrel and stocks on it, so was as much trying to "ruin" it so I'd have the full motivation to pull the trigger on that rebarreling job, so I wasn't afraid of ruining it.

After using the clover on about 20 lead bullets, IIRC, the darn thing still looked like it'd been rifled with beaver teeth, but it didn't copper foul very much at all, and danged if it didn't shoot at or near MOA to boot!

Let me say, though, that I don't think I'll EVER do that again. It's much too cheap and easy (even for ME .... now) to get a proper grit assortment and roll the bullets so as to embed the grit in the BULLETS instead of leaving them free-floating in some grease or wax, which can and probably DID leave some grit embedded in the barrel. That particular barrel, though, was so dang bad, and copper fouled so badly, that I just didn't give a fig if she pooped out on me or not. Also, I'd often been curious about how it'd work.

For a cast bullet barrel, I don't think I'd ever try the clover, or any other compound that didn't have the grit solidly embedded in the bullet, so it'll cut the barrel rather than becoming embedded in it. Even tiny particles of embedded grit will collect fouling. It just does it more slowly than a really rough barrel.

Why put up with that when there's no need to, and when it's not really expensive to do it right?

If you have an old milsurp barrel that's really badly pitted, you might try it in something like that, just to see for yourself how it works, but for a rifle that you want or plan to shoot, I'd steer clear of non embedded grit.

That's the Blackwater 2 cents' worth, anyway.

[sixgunner452]

So the $100.00 question is ......What is the difference between the Clover compound and say the Beartooth or LBT. It's not that I'm cheap, I would rather buy locally if possible. I hear the LBT is alot finer garde abrasive than the Beartooth, which is 320. What gives, Randy.

[Slowpoke]

So the $100.00 question is ......What is the difference between the Clover compound and say the Beartooth or LBT. It's not that I'm cheap, I would rather buy locally if possible. I hear the LBT is alot finer garde abrasive than the Beartooth, which is 320. What gives, Randy.

I could only guess, never been that curious. Sounds like you need a microscope!!

I believe I remember reading a post by Tom Grey GRAY? Where he looked at various lapping compounds under a microscope, and he said the LBT was a mixture of grit sizes.

I have done three fixed chambered guns and used the LBT compound, if I was going to do another one tomorrow I would use the LBT compound and his directions.

good luck

[MT Gianni]

Beartooth's book said to use clover or buy their clover. I am out of town and don't have access to the grain reccomendation. Gianni

[sixgunner452]

Looks like I'm going to have to get Beartooths book. I have LBT's book already, but don't have access to it right now, as I am a military member stationed in
S. Korea. Just doing my home work. Thanks a bunch for all the input, Randy.

[Bass Ackward]

My need for firelapping is to remove the choke in the barrel where the barrel screws into the frame, and an added benefit would be to smooth and get a tapered barrel. Thanks, Randy.


Randy,

Again that would get down to specifics. 220 grit on a hard bullet cuts quick. But you will need almost another .0015 to smooth it up or else you get a sand blast look. Eventually that will polish out until smooth and you are going to open up that amount more which may be more than you planned on. So you need to factor end smoothness, not where you remove the choke.

If you want a taper cut, then you need to go ACWW hardness with 320 grit. Now what you want to watch is what happens at the cone. With a larger diameter bullet, you will still be working the throats. When the bullet slams into the cone, it slows way down and bulges. This does your cutting while pressure builds in the chamber unless you used really fast powder. What can happen if you have to cut a lot is that your throats will flare out like a blunderbus.

So try and minimize this by using LLA over your lap bullets so they only cut where there is real pressure until you get close. Or better yet use a hand lap if you need to remove over .0015 until you get to .0015 over and then fire lap.

Just think about it first.

I don't care for the LBT stuff anymore because it is different grits. If you don't stir the bottle before use, then you get larger and larger grit as you get to the bottom and you can't use prior use as a guide to go by. LBT stuff is excellent for a novice to use that will clear out a problem. But .... it can take longer than necessary resulting other issues like larger throats too if you need say 100 rounds to do the job. Veral was probably the pioneer here and some techniques can be refined.

The key is to think and to watch everything. Go slow, stop. Clean. Measure. Even with the finest grit, stop .0005 before you get to where you want to be as this is about 100 jacketed. You will still have a rough finish for lead when you are done which is why you will still need jacketed. And too many people feel that they should see instand results that may not be there unless you corrected a major problem. Poors of the metal are still open. For all intents and purposes you have a new barrel. If you see you are pulling copper, then realize that you will pull lead too at that pressure / velocity until you get her smoothed and keep using the shoot cylinder clean formula until you don't. It will stop eventually. THEN you will see your improvement with lead! Might still take 300 - 400 rounds depending on what grit you stopped the polish with. And how fast you are driving them. Wide open is what you want. Just realize that is different in a 38 than a 357 and will take longer to get to the promised land.

[k8bor]

I've firelapped (2) lever guns, (.35 rem, .444 marlin) and two of my handguns, (.357 blackhawk, .44 mag stainless hunter). These are all of my preferred lead throwers. The pistols will shoot inside 2" at 50 yards with lead if I do my part, and the rifles will do inside 2" at 100 yards with lead when I do my part too. I'm sure a lot of you guys have guns that do this without the lapping jobs too, but I seem to be able to push lead about as fast as available powders will let me in these guns with no leading problems at all, and the clean up is a snap. Couple strokes with a bore brush does it easy.
I think it's the way to go, provided you are willing to roll the lapping rounds and put up with the mess when doing the job.
I have the beartooth book also. Got it a few years ago, and it, in fact, states they use and recommend 320 grit cloverleaf and nothing else. I don't know about the new compound.
My 2 cents worth.
Dave

[BABore]

I've done 4 guns with the Beartooth kit. Yes it is Clover lapping compound in 320 grit. For the 1st timer I would recommend getting the BT kit if for no other reason than the excellent manual. Marshall recommends using cast bullets of approx 12 Bhn and explains it well in his book. Yes you can buy your own Clover lapping compound a bit cheaper, and use your own ACWW's. That's exactly what I'm doing now. I don't regret buying the kit to get started though as there's a lot of info there as to how to get it done right, the first time. Remember, you are removing metal and there is a point of no return that can be crossed.

From what I understand the LBT kit is similar to BT's, but no first hand experience there. Now for the most important question, does it improve things. My experiences have all been positive. In all cases my accuracy was improved. A couple of rifles had there cast bullet groups halved. Leading was also reduced or eliminated. I didn't get overly concerned on the leading to start with as that's more a function of proper bullet fit and to a lesser extent lube and hardness.

[rvpilot76]

Brownell's sells lapping compound in 600 and 800 grit. How do you think this would work? Could a fella fill the lube grooves with the compound, or would he need to just dip the nose? How about both? This is uncharted territory for me, so I'm interested to hear what you guys have to say.

Regards,

Kevin

[Bass Ackward]

Brownell's sells lapping compound in 600 and 800 grit. How do you think this would work? Could a fella fill the lube grooves with the compound, or would he need to just dip the nose? How about both? This is uncharted territory for me, so I'm interested to hear what you guys have to say.

Regards,

Kevin


Kevin,

I used to smooth with 600 grit. Now I use a Tubbs kit that has aluminum oxide on them. Much nicer finish without dimensional change. Most you will get is .0005 and it is idiot proof. But you need the dimensional problems corrected because this stuff won't do anything for that.

If you want to go that fine, use 1/2# of bees wax to a full jar of JB Bore compound. Then you can apply it with a lubrisizer and just plink away. Makes a nice finish, but bullets will follow dimensional flaws in the barrel and just cut them in with a smoother finish. you have to remove the defects with somthing that cuts.

[David R]

My need for firelapping is to remove the choke in the barrel where the barrel screws into the frame, and an added benefit would be to smooth and get a tapered barrel. Thanks, Randy.

I had the same restriction. When I drove a slug down the barrel it would stop just before the forcing cone. Its gone now. The gun shoots lead better than those "other" boolits. Best I have shot is 3.5" at 50 yards with irons. It no longer leads.

David

[drinks]

If you want to have a number of grit sizes, buy a grit kit for tumble polishing rocks, usually have 220, 320 , 600 and a real polish such as white rouge.
These are dry, it is very east to spread a pinch on steel or glass, use another hard object and roll the bullet several times, then just brush the excess off,load and shoot.
I have done several and have always gotten a better group after firelaping.

[sixgunner452]

I would like to thank you all for the useful info on the subject. I am convinced before I try anything I will get the BT book. Thanks, Randy.

[JohnH]

I took a different route to lapping my TC 375 JDJ barrel. It is a 26" tube, and the last two inches leaded badly when I first got the barrel. There was a constriction about halfway down the bore and it also had some throating issues; it was clearly designed around the use of jacketed bullets.

Rather than fire lapping, which I felt didn't give me any real control over what was happening, I took heavy felt, made a tight patch which I saturated with lapping compound (Clover 600 grit) and proceeded to scrub the bejesus out of that barrel. I repeated this process 3 times over about 6 to 8 weeks. Between scrubbings I fired a couple hundred boolits to get a good idea of what if any changes I was making.

In the end I have a barrel that no longer leads up, even at 1800-2000 fps. The throat has opened up enough to allow seating of boolits sized .377 without the use of a mallet, the constriction is gone.

While some barrel has obviously been removed, I don't think I actually removed the constriction, just slicked it up. As well, there remain plainly visible tooling marks at the end of barrel which initially collected lots of lead. There is no leading these days but the marks remain which tells me I did a lot more smoothing out than material removal.

Am I happy with the results? Yes. Would I do it that way again? Not before I shot 200-1000 round of jacketed down the bore. Today I'm sure that shooting a pile of jacketed bullets would have taken me to the same place, may have taken as many as 1000 rounds to get there, but I wouldn't be any worse off, the barrel would be in the same condition, and I would have saved myself a lot of headache.

[felix]

High antimony lead will do an excellent job of smoothing as well. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

There is no leading these days but the marks remain which tells me I did a lot more smoothing out than material removal.

And I would have saved myself a lot of headache.


John,

Glad you are happy. The tougher the challenge, the greater the reward.

But be wary. Many people start a process for break in and assume that it has a conclusion. As you go along the road of experience with that gun, you will realize that the sizing and seating depth process and possible lube and powder changes may be necessary. Slug every so often. This process (headache) is never ending. And it should be fun!

Oh wear will eventually stabilize alright, but not before all the tool marks are removed. Like sanding rough wood, it always sands faster at first until you get it down for full contact. IF you press harder, it will speed up. Just like pressure / velocity will do in a barrel.

From my experience, performance will continue to improve for you until all the tool marks are removed. That will mean that everything before that had to smooth up to reach the last point. Sometimes that performance is subtle in that you see slight group improvement or it can be dramatic. Then when you size and seat properly you will know what top level performance you really have.

All break in processes are what they are. Whether you believe in doing it with nothing but lead, copper or are open to an abrasive laid patch or bullet. The only differences are results, speed to top performance, and the potential for damage if used improperly. Most people never get to see the top performance before they lose interest or sell the gun. I am no different which is why I fire lap.

Take a few asprin if the headache returns. :grin:

[dragonrider]

I have lapped a couple of barrels for my Contender and a couple of rifles, yes it does help a lot. But my post will center on a couple aspects that I did not see mentioned here
Do not size the cases or the boolits that you use for lapping, be sure to mark the cases you use for lapping and NEVER use them again for anything else.
After rolling the boolits in the grit compound they should be wiped to remove excess, making sure there is no grit on boolit surfaces that do not contact the bore.
When I have loaded the grit coated boolits into the cases I make very sure there is no lapping compound visible above the case mouth. I don't want any getting into the action or chamber.
After each shot I swab from chamber to muzzle never the opposite, I do this to keep grit out of the chamber.
Also I use a larger bell on the casemouth when loading grit loaded boolits, it may not be needed but I want to be sure there is no scraping.
When finished I completely dissamble the gun for cleaning.

[HEAD0001]

I use JB, it takes a little time, but does a fantastic job, Tom.:castmine:

[sixgunner452]

Well, I finally recieved the BT book. The book states what everyone else has already knows. Bullet fit is paramount in cast shooting, even going on to further state; firelapping should not even be attempted before the cylinder chambers have been opened one thousands'' bigger than the barrel. Mr Stanton recommends 320 grit Clover for general duty, usually 30 or so rounds for carbon steel barrels. He claims Ruger stainless guns can be a real bear; often taking 200 plus rounds; so he recomends using 12-15 rounds 280 grit Clover before the 320 is used in stainless.
I was really impressed with the book, it parallels alot of what Veral Smith says in his books. Over-all I recommend the book, now I just need to get me some Clover 320 grit paste. Thanks alot, Randy.

[garandsrus]

Wheeler makes a kit with:
# Two Steel Application Plates
# 1 oz 220 Cutting Grit
# 1 oz 320 Smoothing Grit
# 1 oz 600 Polishing Grit

It's available at Midway (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=646612)

I bought the kit to lap a muzzleloader but haven't done it yet. The grit is already suspended in some type of lubricant/compound so there aren't any mixing issues.

John

[straightshooter1]

I suspect the Wheeler kit, from Midway, is the same as the NECO kit. I bought the NECO 12 or so years ago and was very happy with it, lapping my 8X52 Siamese, my 45-70 Siamese Mauser and several others. It is more work than Tubb's kits however. You place the various grits, one at a time, on one of the steel plates, place the boolit on the plate and roll it through the grit between the two steel plates. Kind of messy but works very well.

I bought three of Tubb's set ups in 8mm and used one with great results. His kits really are Bob (idiot) proof. Just load the bullets and shoot 'em.

Bob