H&G130 bullets keyhole in 45ACP

[ecomm123]

At the center fire stage of a 2700 match last week end, I discovered that the some of recent batch of H&B130 bullets keyholed badly with accuracy so bad the missed the backer @ 50yds. To isolate the problem on the range, I saw that at 25yd, most of tyhe bullets were in the black, while 2 - 4 rounds would be wild shots ranging from 5s - to misses at the edge of the backer.

For the 45 stage of the match I switched to my other standard with 200 gr H&G#68. These worked normally. I shot a 824 out of 900 - which is in my normal range.

Now I am trying to figure what went wrong in my casting process. I pulled they remaining bullets. The only think I noticed was that on some of the bullets, the sprue cut was smeared, in some cases to the edge of the bullet.

I have shot this style of bullet before and they worked well.

What I am wondering is that enough to unbalance the bullet and cause to keyhole. If not what else can I check?.


Boolit Details:
Using Range lead in H&G #130, Hardness is 9 with Lee tester, Velocity 790 - 800 FPT, Sized in Lyman 450 lube sizer TO 451, Lube - Lyman black moly

http://www.maierassociates.com/Boyertown/IMG_3422_Croped.jpg

All advice welcomed. Thanks Hank

[Dale53]

It appears from the picture that the bullets have irregular base edges. That will CERTAINLY cause bullets to keyhole.

The bases need to be flat and completely filled out with sharp edges. As Harry Pope stated, "The base is the steering end of the bullet."

What happens is that as the base of the bullet clears the crown of the barrel, gas escapes around the low edge of the bullet tipping the bullet.

Dale53

[Echo]

+1 for Dale53. I don't mean to be like this, but those are some ugly boolits. The bases should be sharp, and they aren't. It's almost like they were BB, sort of. If you have any more of those boolits, melt 'em down and recast, this time adding a little Sn to get them to fill out.

[casterofboolits]

+2 for Dale53. Bases need to be sharp and uniform for accuracy. The nose can be half ut away, but as long as the base is good, the boolit will shoot well.

[ecomm123]

Thanks Guys, I see what you mean. Some of the deformation of the bullets are from my inertial bullet puller, but some of the observed bevel base deformation seems to be from my Lyman.

I just looked at the actual bullets and on some I can see a clear deformation of the base. I am suspecting that I may have used the wrong top punch for the #130 which allowed the bullets to cant when entering the sizing die. I'll set up a test batch and see if I can replicate the keyholing #130 bullets vs accurate #130 bullets

I gather that you all do not think the smeared sprue cut is a big problem.

Hank

[HeavyMetal]

+1 on adding a little tin plus slow down a little bit and let the sprue harden more.

I will also suggest you check tension on the sprue plate itself, I've seen large sprues on boolit base's that were actually lumps because the plate "jumped" when the sprue was cut rather than cut smoothly!

Your keyholing is absolutely caused by a boolit base condition.

[gray wolf]

I would have thought / hoped--that those bullets were dug out of the burm

I wouldn't say ugly ---------But ugly comes to mind ( just ribbing a little )
Someone please post a pic of a well cast bullet --front, back,and side.
Also are you sure about that .451 sizing, just checking.

[pls1911]

An interesting side note. some where have a well cast RCBS RN which was a very early effort at casting. Dug from a clay bank and set next to a newly cast slug, the only difference was to engraving of the rifling, and a little sandblasting on the nose

[Paladin 56]

Wow. I've recovered Civil War musket balls in better condition. :razz: Just kidding. :kidding:

Here is a photo of some reasonably cast .45 ACP that look to be an H&G #68 type bullet.

http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab99/TDBall56/45ACPBullets.jpg

[Dale53]

Here's some of mine cast with an original H&G #130 four cavity mould:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/QHG503bullet-1735.jpg

Dale53

[captaint]

ecomm - I might loosen the spru plate a little and try sizing them .452. I might also add some tin to the mix. Make em look like Dale's boolits, then they'll shoot. Learning lasts forever, hopefully!! enjoy Mike

[ecomm123]

Thanks again for all the help. My original bullets were pulled from loaded cases and I notice that the black molylube and the fine TG powder was stuck to the lube seems to make the look really bad.

I've loaded 50 rounds from a new batch that look pretty good to my eyes. Here are some pics of bullets I just loaded for a test. http://www.maierassociates.com/Boyertown/HG_130_Crop.jpg. 2 examples of the lube/sized on the right and 3 examples of the unlubed bullets.

Here are some of my HG68 bullets: http://www.maierassociates.com/Boyertown/HG_68_Crop.jpg.

I shoot the HG68s a lot. I used them at Perry last month and they worked fine. Most times I could accurately call my shots.

I also like to shoot range lead - i.e., relatively soft lead. Since I have changed from "hard" commercial bullets, I have not experienced barrel leading. When I was shooting commercial hard bullets I would find my barrel leading up after only 90 shots.

Would appreciate any observations and thoughts on these.

Thanks Hank

[Bass Ackward]

I'm gonna be different. I don't think better bullet bases are going to help ya much.

How long you been shooting this lube load hardness combo? The H&G 68 carries less lube. Not sure that you aren't going to find that you still get purges with the 130s.

Sizing bigger might help, but I would look to another lube that is less slippery and doesn't have a propensity to build. The softer the bullet you make, the more excess lube is going to flub you up in a real smooth bore condition. Especially in hot weather where hydraulic sizing causes under bore sized bullets. Otherwise called a "lube purge".

[462]

Not being critical, but you might wait a bit longer before cutting the sprue, thereby eliminating the tearing. Refer to the boolit on the right in Paladin 56's picture.

[ecomm123]

I'm gonna be different. I don't think better bullet bases are going to help ya much.

How long you been shooting this lube load hardness combo? The H&G 68 carries less lube. Not sure that you aren't going to find that you still get purges with the 130s.

Sizing bigger might help, but I would look to another lube that is less slippery and doesn't have a propensity to build. The softer the bullet you make, the more excess lube is going to flub you up in a real smooth bore condition. Especially in hot weather where hydraulic sizing causes under bore sized bullets. Otherwise called a "lube purge".

Bass Ackward I think I understand you point. Let me restate in terms I understand - The Lyman black molylube is slick and, when hot, with these bullets the lube can extrude in the barrel. The extrusion can fill the lands and results in a smooth bore like condition - do I understand your point correctly.

I have been shooting this lube load hardness combo since I started casting last summer. All other time I used it it seemed to shoot fine - accurate and no leading. Thus I was very perplexed when I started missing a 24x24in backer at 50yds for a few shots out of every 10 round string. .

You recommended a "less slippery" lube. Which ones do you think best?

[Bass Ackward]

Bass Ackward I think I understand you point. Let me restate in terms I understand - The Lyman black molylube is slick and, when hot, with these bullets the lube can extrude in the barrel. The extrusion can fill the lands and results in a smooth bore like condition - do I understand your point correctly.

I have been shooting this lube load hardness combo since I started casting last summer. All other time I used it it seemed to shoot fine - accurate and no leading. Thus I was very perplexed when I started missing a 24x24in backer at 50yds for a few shots out of every 10 round string. .

You recommended a "less slippery" lube. Which ones do you think best?


Which lubes I think best won't get you across the street little alone a cup of coffee. It's what the gun thinks.

And you probably have other considerations like smoke etc. So I normally wouldn't recommend Alox which has no lubricating properties what so ever. But that is the easiest to try and see if you get different results. You can put your bullets in a freezer to harden your lube enough to put how ever many you want into a plastic bag and put a light coat over the other lube by needing the bag gently.

Don't pay attention to your groups. If that cuts your fliers, then you have identified the problem. Then I would spend some time in the Lube section to see what others in your situation are using as to what your mind picks as logical to try.

Just be patient. Cause the other guys might be right. Just that 800 fps and maybe 13,000 psi doesn't really call for heavy duty lube.

[Doby45]

http://i50.tinypic.com/2s156rd.jpg

Proverbial Group Shot

http://i45.tinypic.com/30k94es.jpg

Finished Product

http://i46.tinypic.com/xn6pmh.jpg

Unsized on the left and Sized on the right.

http://i48.tinypic.com/257q1c4.jpg

Boolit bases

[44man]

Even after tuning the casting to get perfect boolits, has anyone thought that the boolit might be too light with not enough bearing surface for the rifling?
Seems as if after going to a 200 gr boolit that Ecomm shot better.
I have had too many boolits key hole at 50 by just leaving off the gas checks thus reducing the drive area. With a gas check the boolit would shoot nickles at 100.
A big problem is trying to shoot stuff for zero recoil.

[Dale53]

As I mentioned, I have an original four cavity H&G mould for the #130 bullet. I have shot tens of thousands of those bullets at both target velocity and IPSC 180 power factor levels out of 1911's and S&W 625's. Properly alloyed, cast, and reloaded, those bullets just flat shoot. Just for the record, my favorite bullet for the .45 ACP is the #68 simply because it cuts a cleaner hole in the target.

Here are results (standing at 25 yards) that explain better than I can tell you:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/img069.jpg

Hundreds of competitors at Camp Perry have used the #130 bullet at the long line (50 yards) with near perfect match scores. It's not just my fantasy, this bullet shoots. I can't give you chapter and verse at it's performance beyond 50 yards except to say that I have shot it at 100 yards on steel with excellent results. It was designed for NRA Bullseye at 25 and 50 yards and it fulfills that perfectly well.

Regarding lube - I jumped on the NRA 50/50 Alox/Beeswax lube bandwagon soon after E.H. Harrison ran the most conclusive lube tests ever performed (to the best of my knowledge). His evidence was conclusive. I even mixed several gallons of that on my own (I had a good friend in industry who could get me pure Alox 2138F in gallon sizes - normally only available in a 50 gallon drum).

I got tired of making up my own lube, used a commercial version with the same, excellent, results. Then when I discovered Lars White Label Lubes I went for Lars Carnauba Red. It seems to have all the properties of NRA 50/50 but has a higher melting point. That is a useful property when I shoot in hot weather.

So, regarding lube, I can recommend, without reservation, either NRA 50/50 (available from Lars White Label, also as well as a number of commercial sources) or his Carnauba Red. Lars prices are quite reasonable (scroll down to the bottom of the page "Lar45's LsStuff).

Since I received my MiHec #68 Clone mould, that is the bullet I shoot. However, every now and then I run a few thousand #130's because I KNOW that the performance is there also (in the 1911 platform as well as my 625s).

The above comments are not in any rate to be a diatribe against anyone else's opinion, "I'm just sayin"... If you need NRA Bullseye performance levels at distances of up to and including 50 yards, then there is NOTHING wrong with the #130 bullet.

P.S.
Doby45;
Those are excellent pictures of EXCELLENT bullets!

Dale53

[44man]

As I mentioned, I have an original four cavity H&G mould for the #130 bullet. I have shot tens of thousands of those bullets at both target velocity and IPSC 180 power factor levels out of 1911's and S&W 625's. Properly alloyed, cast, and reloaded, those bullets just flat shoot. Just for the record, my favorite bullet for the .45 ACP is the #68 simply because it cuts a cleaner hole in the target.

Here are results (standing at 25 yards) that explain better than I can tell you:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/img069.jpg

Hundreds of competitors at Camp Perry have used the #130 bullet at the long line (50 yards) with near perfect match scores. It's not just my fantasy, this bullet shoots. I can't give you chapter and verse at it's performance beyond 50 yards except to say that I have shot it at 100 yards on steel with excellent results. It was designed for NRA Bullseye at 25 and 50 yards and it fulfills that perfectly well.

Regarding lube - I jumped on the NRA 50/50 Alox/Beeswax lube bandwagon soon after E.H. Harrison ran the most conclusive lube tests ever performed (to the best of my knowledge). His evidence was conclusive. I even mixed several gallons of that on my own (I had a good friend in industry who could get me pure Alox 2138F in gallon sizes - normally only available in a 50 gallon drum).

I got tired of making up my own lube, used a commercial version with the same, excellent, results. Then when I discovered Lars White Label Lubes I went for Lars Carnauba Red. It seems to have all the properties of NRA 50/50 but has a higher melting point. That is a useful property when I shoot in hot weather.

So, regarding lube, I can recommend, without reservation, either NRA 50/50 (available from Lars White Label, also as well as a number of commercial sources) or his Carnauba Red. Lars prices are quite reasonable (scroll down to the bottom of the page "Lar45's LsStuff).

Since I received my MiHec #68 Clone mould, that is the bullet I shoot. However, every now and then I run a few thousand #130's because I KNOW that the performance is there also (in the 1911 platform as well as my 625s).

The above comments are not in any rate to be a diatribe against anyone else's opinion, "I'm just sayin"... If you need NRA Bullseye performance levels at distances of up to and including 50 yards, then there is NOTHING wrong with the #130 bullet.

P.S.
Doby45;
Those are excellent pictures of EXCELLENT bullets!

Dale53
What you didn't explain is does every .45 have the same barrel and twist.

[Echo]

What you didn't explain is does every .45 have the same barrel and twist.

In a word, 'Yes'. Well, maybe not the same length, or groove diameter, but dang close, and I'm fairly sure they all have the same, or nearly the same, twist. Groove differences will require adjustment, but ecomm's 68's shoot fine, sized the same, from the same alloy, with the same lube.

But, ecomm, the last boolits you pictured are marginally better than the first ones. When we said the bases should be sharp, we meant it. It may be a case of your 130 mold being a little more particular, and temperamental, than your 68, and so you may need to add Sn, and run the temperature up - enough to get complete base fill out! If you are going to use these boolits in competition, they must be as close to perfect as man can make them, or else you will never be able to achieve the level of which you are otherwise capable.

[johniv]

Ecomm, the advise about boolit bases is dead on, I also noticed something in the last picture you posted of your "sized #130" .It appeares to be sized on only one half of the boolit, this may be an illusion created by my old eyes or quality of the pic, but it appears that your mold has"shuck" or mis alignment between the blocks. This can usually be corected . Can anyone confirm what I am seeing(or think I am seeing)
John

[Dale53]

Nope. I don't have every .45. However, the .45's that I have and shoot (both revolver and pistol) work well with this bullet. The people that I have competed against that were using this bullet never complained (and they have been legion). I have never seen bullets keyholing during competition in both NRA Bullseye and IPSC.

Further, the Original Poster mentioned that he has shot that design bullet before, without issue. Seems to me, by simple process of elimination, that his bullets were at fault - not design, but casting execution.

I do remember one competitor and friend that bought a new Colt (Series 70) 1911 that keyholed. I examined his pistol and right out of the box it had a bad crown (not just a little bad,either). As soon as the pistol was crowned, it started shooting well.

FWIW
Dale53

[ecomm123]

As mentioned I ran a test last night at the range. I wanted to see just how much impact an uneven edge of the base would have on the point of impact. I took 5 of the "good" #130 bullets (the ones similar to the image I posted way above) and cut a bevel on one edge. Of the 5, only 2 were obvious flyers. And fired 5 normal bullets. The target scored 86-1x. I was expecting far worse results. Test Target follows:

http://www.maierassociates.com/Boyertown/SF_TestTarget_Resized.jpg

The next 2 targets were shot with newly loaded #130s using the same load and lube as the one that failed on me.

Timefire I shot a 98 - 5x

Rapid Fire shot a 95 - 6x (the 8 was me - I knew it when the gun fired).
http://www.maierassociates.com/Boyertown/RF_Cropped_Resize.jpg

Conclusions:
I was casting & sizing/lube fast to get ready for Canton & Camp Perry. My back up gun seems to like the #130s feeding better than the #68s. Fortunately I did not need to use them. Obviously, something went wrong. Although I have not been able to replicate the problem.

The bullets I shot yesterday were made earlier in the summer when I was not rushed. They worked fine. Soooo - slow down is in order.

I would like to thank all of the contributors. I have learned a lot about the subtleties of casting. And have some things to work on.

Hank

[GSM]

Were both targets shot on the short line?

To try and duplicate the original problem, it might be worthwhile to spoil the base of some more bullets and shoot them at the long line.

[Echo]

I remember hearing of some wags at the Ada Zilker range, near Austin, I believe. There would always be some noobie who would bring just enough reloads to shoot the match - then have an alibi and have to beg some from another competitor to finish the match. Other competitors were happy to furnish loads, the base of the boolits having been cut at a 45* angle, or loaded with black powder. Folks learned to ensure they had plenty of rounds for competition, when their rounds could be seen striking the ground in front of the berm - or the firing of which obscured the targets during the refire.

[ecomm123]

GSM - our range only has a 25 yd line. The following image is from the match where I had the problems. Note the 4 hits outside of the scoring rings & 2 in the 6 ring at 25 Yds. As you can see the hits were way off center.

http://www.maierassociates.com/Boyertown/IMG_3397_Crop_Resize.jpg

Echo: Thanks for the idea, I think I'll keep a box of these with me for future matches.