US Army AQT 25M target

[RU shooter]

last weekend a friend gave me a half box of these target,and seeing my 2 boys are starting to enjoy shooting more and more I figure these would be put to good use.I realize that its set up for the M16 rifle but their 22 with iron sights will suffice . So how does the Army shoot these?Besides being shot at 25 M what is the course of fire for these ie: how many rds. per target on each paper , what is the POA supposed to be COM or 6:00 hold ? how is it scored? there is only a small dot and a circle on each figure? From what firing position? The boys would be awful proud if they could qualify on what our Army shoots at!


Thanks,Tim

[EOD3]

If we're both talking about the same target, it's designed for a specific range and height above the bore. The bullet path crosses the line of sight first at 25 meters going up and 175 meters going down. (all ranges based on M16A1 of yore) The same thing can be done with any rifle (or pistol) with a known bullet path.

[thx997303]

Is this the target you are talking about? http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/25-meter-m16a2-zero-targe.shtml

Or is it this one? http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=ALT+C+QUAL

If it is the first, it is used entirely for zeroing the M16.

If it is the second, and I think it is. But if it's the second, it's a secondary method of qualifying.

When I qualed on the M16 ( couple times [smilie=l: ) we would go to a range that went to 300 meters and the targets were the same as the sillhouettes shown on the second target, but they were bigger and spaced between 25m? and 300 meters out.

You started in the prone supported position (prone with a sandbag supporting the rifle) and fired at 20 targets.

Then you went to the prone unsupported position (no sand bag) and fired at 10 targets.

Then you went to the kneeling position and fired at another 10.

There were 40 targets to fire at, and you were scored based on how many you hit.

Hit 0-22 and it was a no go.

Hit 23-29 and it was Marksmen.

Hit 30-35 and it was Sharpshooter.

Hit 36-40 and that's Expert.

To throw a wrench in it, soldiers also qualify in full battle rattle. (IBA, ACH, etc)

You don't have to tell the kids that though. :)

[BCM45]

Is this the target you are talking about? http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/25-meter-m16a2-zero-targe.shtml

Or is it this one? http://www.letargets.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=ALT+C+QUAL

If it is the first, it is used entirely for zeroing the M16.

If it is the second, and I think it is. But if it's the second, it's a secondary method of qualifying.

When I qualed on the M16 ( couple times [smilie=l: ) we would go to a range that went to 300 meters and the targets were the same as the sillhouettes shown on the second target, but they were bigger and spaced between 25m? and 300 meters out.

You started in the prone supported position (prone with a sandbag supporting the rifle) and fired at 20 targets.

Then you went to the prone unsupported position (no sand bag) and fired at 10 targets.

Then you went to the kneeling position and fired at another 10.

There were 40 targets to fire at, and you were scored based on how many you hit.

Hit 0-22 and it was a no go.

Hit 23-29 and it was Marksmen.

Hit 30-35 and it was Sharpshooter.

Hit 36-40 and that's Expert.

To throw a wrench in it, soldiers also qualify in full battle rattle. (IBA, ACH, etc)

You don't have to tell the kids that though. :)

This is the process I went through.

[EOD3]

What? You guys didn't get to fire from a foxhole? :grin:

[thx997303]

They replaced the foxhole firing with the kneeling.

[Larry Gibson]

If it is the 25M AQT with the 10 silhouettes on it then the Alternate Qualification Course is;

From a foxhole supported or a prone supported position (depends on whether the 25m range used has a foxhole or not) with 2 magazines of 10 rounds and one is loaded into the weapon and the shooter assumes a supported position. On the command "commence firing" 2 shots are shot at 5 of the targets. A reload with the other magazine of 10 rounds is done, the same supported position assumed and 2 shots each are shot at the remaing 5 targets. Time limit is 2 minutes.

From a prone unsuported position the same procedure is followed with 2 additional 10 round magazines. Another 2 minute time limit is used.

Total is 40 shots fired for record. When the target is scored only 4 hits per target are counted. Any bullet hole that cuts the black is a hit. The rifle should be zeroed so point of aim is point of impact at 25m.

This is a deceptively simple course of fire. The targets in size represents ranges from 50M to 300m. It is a proven fact that soldiers who can't hit the reduced targets at 25m will not hit the real full size target at range. The pitfalls to most inexperienced shooters and those good shooters who get cocky are (besides sloppy fundemementals of marksmanship because the target is close and they think they can't miss); looking at the close target instead of focusing on the front sight, looking for bullet holes between shots instead of concentrating on what they are doing and the next shot, losing track of which targets were shot when they reload or when moving from target to target, not being ready to shoot on the fire command, not having the reload accessable, fumbling the reload (poor weaponscraft), failure to breath between shots, shooting too fast,etc.

The "proper" method of engagement is to shoot 2 shots each at the closest targets (the larger ones because being "closer" they represent the most danger). Many get lost here during the reload. To do consistently well on this target the easiest method is to shoot 1 shot at each target with each magazine. This way if you follow the same sequence of targets with each magazine you won't get lost. Yes this is "gamesmanship" but it gets higher scores. However, if you do shoot 2 shots per target then another successful technique is to shoot te smaller targets first taking time to ensure a proper sight alignment, sight picture and trigger pull. As the barrel gets hotter, the mirage increases, the time shortens and you get fatigued there is more room for a little error as the targets get larger.

I fired this course many, many times over the years with M16A1s, M16A2sand M4s. I always scored 39 or 40. If a proper zero is obtained prior to shooting the course then it is a very good course to test the marksmanship fundementals of Soldiers/Marines. Of Course the 300m, for whatit is, is a little better becase it also tests target detection. Both the 25m AQC and the 300m qualification course only test the foxhole and prone supported postions along with the prone unsupported position. If body armor is worn the kneeling position takes the place of prone unsupported position for some or all of the record shots for that position. If optical sights are used then the Soldier/Marine is supposed to qualify with and without the optical sight but most just use the optical sights.

Using the M16A2 and A2 with the /22LR M261 device to fire this course was also a very good marksmanship training course for Soldiers/Marines using those weapons.

Larry Gibson

[GeneT]

Here's some printable AQT targets, great for .22 fun.

Instructions included.

http://appleseedshoot.blogspot.com/2008/03/aqt-targets.html

GsT

[beagle]

Man, I loved that foxhole. Had a friend that ran a trainfire range and I'd take my M700 down there and he'd lay a 200 round box of FMJ ball ammo on me, open the range and I'd proceed to clean all the long distance targets from corner to corner. Erroded the barrel on it in one long fall of that nonsense.

Then we started shooting them with my M94 .30/30 and cast. Pretty good out to 200 meters.

Then, we started shooting my M1911 with cast and with a sandbag, it was pretty easy to take down 200 meter targets. Some may have been ricochets.

But, the old foxhole position was fun. Just be sure to turn over the sandbags and look for copperheads and rattlesnakes./beagle


What? You guys didn't get to fire from a foxhole? :grin:

[EOD3]

I took basic at Ft. Lost in the woods AKA: little Korea, there were a great many things you might find under a sandbag. :holysheep Not to mention at the bottom of the foxhole...

[thx997303]

Larry, the foxhole supported position has been removed from training, and Body armor is now ALWAYS worn.

Just a few changes the years have brought.

[Larry Gibson]

Thz997303

That's a fairly recent change but consistent with todays training. Last I shot the course for qual was March of '07, one month before I retired. Shot a 39 with my 60 year old old tired eyes using the M16A2 I used in Iraq in '04/'05. The one miss was on a 300m target and was just a hair away from cutting black. Still "Expert" for all 42 years in the Army, I was kind of proud of that.

Larry Gibson

[RU shooter]

Thanks all for the Help and Yes it is the Alternate qual. target with the 10 targets on each sheet.My boys are gonna have fun with this!



Tim

[9.3X62AL]

The course of fire described above is very close to that used by my agency to qualify both SWAT members and patrol rifle deputy staff. I gave a lecture with content very similar to that in Larry's post concerning the deceptive nature of short ranges and rifle shooting. Our courses were all fired at 50 yards, though--so we lost the trajectory approximation effect. My own A1 model AR was sighted 2" high at 100 yards, which equated to about 3/4" high at 200 and POA/POI at 250.

A question for the former and present servicemen here--that dial-up 300-800 meter rear sight on the A2 variants--isn't that optimized for the M-855 62 grain load? We used 55 grain W-W CXP softpoints as our duty ammo, and the "shooter types" reported that 55 grain FMJs and our duty loads didn't track well at longer ranges with the dial-ups.

[BCM45]

I took basic at Ft. Lost in the woods AKA: little Korea, there were a great many things you might find under a sandbag. :holysheep Not to mention at the bottom of the foxhole...


Same place I went to basic but had the foxhole.

[Larry Gibson]

9.3X62AL

A question for the former and present servicemen here--that dial-up 300-800 meter rear sight on the A2 variants--isn't that optimized for the M-855 62 grain load?

That is correct. The rear sight elevations are calibrated for the "Green Tip" M855 ammo with 62 gr bullets.

When zeroing the M16A2 at 25m the rear sight is turned down to the bottom to 8/3 and then turned back up 1 click. On the M16A4 with removeable handle sight the rear is turned down to bottom to 6/3 and then up 2 clicks, should be a "Z" on the drum. On the M3 with removeable handle the rear sight is turned down to the bottom at 6/3 and left there. All elevation adjustments are then made with the front sight to obtain a point of aim/point of impact zero at 25m.

The sights are left there if the 25m AQC is to be fired and then on completion or if the AQC is not to be fired they are returned to the 300 meter setting. On the M16A2 rear sight it is turned back down 1 click to 8/3. On the M16A4 with removeable handle the rear sight is turned down 2 clicks to 6/3 and on the M4 it is left at 6/3. This then theoretically gives all 3 of them a 300m zero. Of course confirmation of the actual zero should be done on a know distance range of 300m. Yes I have seen what appear to be good 25m zeros actually be off enough to miss at 250 - 300m.

Larry Gibson

[EOD3]

Larry, the foxhole supported position has been removed from training, and Body armor is now ALWAYS worn.

Just a few changes the years have brought.

Body Armor? We made do with plain old OD green fatigues and a tidy white t-shirt. [smilie=w:

[9.3X62AL]

Larry--many thanks, sir!

[82nd airborne]

Infantry isnt aloud to qualify on those targets, as the furthest and only distance is 25m.

[Larry Gibson]

82nd

That may be the case at Fort Bragg but over the years I've seen many infantrymen qualify on that target at 25m. As stated in FM 3-22-9 it is an "alternate" course to be used when regular 300m ranges are not available. That happens many more times than one would think. The targets are scaled to ranges from 50m to 300m. Since the M16 series family are zeroed at 300 yards and the max range for qualification is 300m the shooters aim center mass regardless of the range so range estimation is not a factor at all. Quite frankly, in 42 years (infantry, armored scout and SF) I've never been on a range where the wind was a factor during qualification with one exception and then one cleck into the wind solved that. Thus it boils down to the fundementals of marksmanship and they apply every bit as much to that 25m AQC target as they do on the 300m range. You might note the required scores for qualification are higher on the AQC also.

The manual is correct that a regular range should be used because the additional training value there is target detection if a range is available where the target locations are not obvious. I've only been on one such range in my career and I've shot on many ranges at many different locations. That, however, does not negate the marskmanship value of the 25m AQC. I have seen far to many "hoohah/hooRah" gung ho infantryman with very large egoes not do as well at 25m as they claim to do on the 300m course. For example; a unit from Germany needed to qualify while in Iraq for promotion points. There obviously was not a 300m range available so the 25m AQC was used. The units scores were down some 20-25% from what they did before deployment in Germany. Many of the infantry really grumbled about the tighter scores. I then briefed the commander on the pitfalls of the course (they wouldn't listen to me before) and requested I give a block of instruction to his troops so they could shoot the AQC again. I did, they paid attention and did very well the second go around. I've heard probably every excuse possible over the years about the AQC but like we say; "The max effective range of an excuse is zero meters."

Larry Gibson

[Mk42gunner]

[QUOTE=Larry Gibson;965919

...(they wouldn't listen to me before) ...
Larry Gibson[/QUOTE]

Larry I found that was the biggest problem with requalifying people.

I was a Small Arms Marksmanship Instructor for 14 years in the Navy. I would rather teach someone that has never fired a rifle or pistol before how to shoot than to try to improve the scores of the average know-it-all.

Many times it is easier to let the shooter screw up his (invariably the know-it-alls are male), first run through the course; as long as they are safe. Then they may listen the next time.

When we fired M16A2E3's at 200 yards we set the rear sight at 8/3 minus two clicks; then adjusted zero with the front sight.

Slight thread drift here. Back when we qualed at 25 yards with handguns, it was always entertaining to watch one of the loudmouths hit the ground at 15yards, then listening to the denials about they weren't anticipating the recoil. Then put them through a ball and dummy drill, and let them see how far they had jerked the pistol down.

Back on topic, The targets we used in the Navy were a scaled version of the 200 yard bullseye. They may have changed it by now, I know they finally came out with a nightfire/lowlight course for rifles shortly after I retired.


Robert

[82nd airborne]

Larry Gibson,
Well Said, I dont mind being corrected in the least, especially when someone takes the time to actually find what manual it is in. They frowned heavily on infantry qualifying on th aqt's at both benning and bragg. I never even used one, tho I did bring a box of them home because they are a terrific .22 target. Which here recently, several 300m ranges have been added at both the above state bases, this probably is one reason why I never used them. Thanks,
Aaron

[Larry Gibson]

82nd

I really agree with you and the manual that a Soldier/Marine should qualify on the real meal deal, however as I mentioned that is not always possible or practical. It's good that Benning and Bragg have added ranges as with the closure of many forts the available ranges are really limited, especially to the USAR and NG units. I also lament the discontinuance of the older trainfire ranges. These went out to 450m (500 yards) with targets from 50m to 450m. The day qualification was around 90 round. You did the usual foxhole shooting with 3 ten shot mags and then a couple mags prone. The last part was the fun part as you put loaded mags in the pouches (full LBE was worn) and then you advanced down the ramp at a slow walk. When a target appeared (you had locate it from 50 to 450m) assume a position you thought appropriate (we were trained to shoot prone, sitting, squatting, kneeling and standing), estimate the range for proper hold over and engage the target. You then stood and on command started walking again. It took about 3 trips down the ramp to shoot the remaining rounds for the course.

I got cocking on my 1st trip down the ramp shooting mostly standing and kneeling. Thats where I lost most of my misses. The second and 3rd trips I smartened up and started using sitting and squatting positions ( I could shoot as well squatting as sitting), even on the close 50 to 100m targets and went prone for the 350 to 450m targets. I qualified Expert. That was a very good course, too bad it has been shortend to what it is today.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Mk42gunner

Larry I found that was the biggest problem with requalifying people.

I was a Small Arms Marksmanship Instructor for 14 years in the Navy. I would rather teach someone that has never fired a rifle or pistol before how to shoot than to try to improve the scores of the average know-it-all.

Many times it is easier to let the shooter screw up his (invariably the know-it-alls are male), first run through the course; as long as they are safe. Then they may listen the next time.

Now isn't that the truth:-)

Larry Gibson

[bruce drake]

Try doing a rifle qual range on Fort Drum in the middle of the winter when your range day is -20 and blowing 4-6" of snow. There is a reason why we have a indoor 25m range up here in the North Country. The Infantry Units here use it on a regular basis. As Larry mentioned, the 25AQT is the alternative method to get someone a battlesight zero and qualified with their weapon when the longer KD and pop-up ranges aren't available.

We have a lot of good ranges up here when the weather is nice...You just have to wait for the snowpack to melt to open the roads out to the ranges in the spring. Range 1 (The indoor range) is on main post and can be used year round, 24hrs a day if needed.

Bruce

[sdelam]

Here's some printable AQT targets, great for .22 fun.

Instructions included.

http://appleseedshoot.blogspot.com/2008/03/aqt-targets.html

GsT

Does anyone else have problems with this link? The page loads fine but the target never comes up.

[EOD3]

Does anyone else have problems with this link? The page loads fine but the target never comes up.

You need to have Flash enabled and make sure you're not blocking the script.

[Larry Gibson]

The Army did make a series of single page (8 1/2 x 11) targets for use on indoor 50 foot range with the M261 device (.22LR) in the M16A1. It is another fun target to use. I don't know if it is the same as in the post above but I have quite a few of them.. They also made a series of reduced targets for the M261 of the old "D" target that was used for a while in a seperate competition with the M16 and M16A1. That was before they became competitive in the NMC. I also have those and still use them as I have a M261 device for my M16 AR. It is every bit as challenging as the real course minus having to deal with wind and make sight adjustments.
I have the targets packeted away right now but I'll see if I can get to them in the next couple days and post them.

Larry Gibson

[sdelam]

You need to have Flash enabled and make sure you're not blocking the script.

Downloaded the lastest flash, all other links on the page work, shows red coats, greycoats but no AQT"s:sad:

[EOD3]

Downloaded the lastest flash, all other links on the page work, shows red coats, greycoats but no AQT"s:sad:

OK, we'll do it the easy way... Shoot me a PM with an email address and I'll send you the files.