Do I really need a thermometer? (And why?)

[GeneT]

Hi All,

OK - I've rabidly (no, that's not supposed to say 'rapidly') increased my casting in the last few months. I've gone from casting one bullet to about five + two different shotgun slugs. I'm getting good results as-is, but I keep seeing people say that a thermometer is a "must have".

The only thing obvious to me that a thermometer might improve is less oxidation of the melt - am I missing something? Do I really need a thermometer?

GsT

[Muddy Creek Sam]

It helps to keep the zinc out and helps to diagnose problems.

Sam :D

[Shuz]

I cast without a thermometer for many years, and "got along" OK. After I got one, I wouldn't want to cast without one! It makes the whole process a lot simpler. Is there anyone out there who has tried a thermometer and found it wasn't worthwhile?

[Charlie Sometimes]

If you are working with unknown blends of lead alloy, I think it helps some to use one. I tried to blend them until they solidify at similar temperatures, hopefully making them near the same alloy percentages that way. You need an accurate thermometer to really be able to tell about the real differences in the alloys, and most of the commonly available one aren't readable to the degree you need, IMHO.
Even with one, it is still just a guessing game. I end up just shooting the unknown blends for practice/plinking loads, and keep the known stuff for accuracy and hunting loads.
I have just about quit using one though- I find all my alloys are casting better running hot melts, so I just run them all that way lately. Hot enough to fill properly, hold proper mold temperature, and that is where I stop.
Hardness is the next thing I worry about in relation to this subject.

[RobS]

You do not have to use a thermometer as a person can find rhythm with their pot settings and casting rate and take note to what is going on. I had done it this way for a long time however with the arrival of a thermometer a while back now I wouldn't cast without it. It is a tool and nothing more, but man it sure is nice to know exactly what is going on with the alloy. If a person had a PID temp controller on their pot it would be easier to judge the alloy without a thermometer, but with the pot I use (Lee 20lbs bottom pour) it regulates the temp of the alloy with a rheostat which is located inside the body's housing unit. Ambient temperatures outside in the garage change from season to season and so does the rheostat that regulates my alloy temps so my pots setting in the summer is not the same as in the winter.

It's also nice to know where a person is at as some molds like temps that others don't. Many times I will cast two different molds and if one likes the alloy a hotter temp I'll start with that one and later move on to the other mold as I put in a bit of ingot or sprues to cool down the alloy. No time wasted trying to heat up the alloys or guess when the temp is right for the second mold.

[NSP64]

I started out without one. Bought one noted my settings on the pot. Don't use it much now.

[mooman76]

I have been casting allot of years and have never used one. I think it is somwhat of a handycap for a begginer, they get hung up on it too much. Sometimes it won't let them think the problem through. They think I cast at x number of degrres last time and now I am still there an can't cast so they can't figure out what is wrong. You learn allot by not having a thermometer on how to sence what your different moulds need to produce good bullets.
I am not knocking thermometers by any means. I think they are a nice thing to have but they are not a must have. I just don't feel I need one at this point in my casting life. Like stated they can help diagnose problems or help keep your zink out of the pot. The way I always kept zink out was I did small batches and poured my ingot quick so I never leat the lead get hot enough to melt zink. The funny thing was I was doing it when I first started and din't know I was doing it, but back then zink WWs were a rare thing.

[qajaq59]

I wouldn't say you "need" one. But they are handy.

[Poygan]

I had one and found I used it very little. Sold it to a gent on this forum and have not missed it. I melt down the WWs in a large Lee pot and use a low temp and stuff floats to the top. (Have yet to find a Zinc WW). I use a Lee bottom pour for the boolit casting. Perhaps sloppy and unscientific but it works for me.

[mpmarty]

You don't need a thermometer to cast any more than you need a speedometer to drive a motor vehicle.

[Calamity Jake]

I started out without one. Bought one noted my settings on the pot. Don't use it much now.

Me too.

[mold maker]

Our grandparents didn't have one, and they fed their families with cast boolits. There were enough boolits cast without a thermometer to feed the rifles for wars.
They are an accessory that may make it easier to be a little more uniform in size and weight.
As stated above it's too easy to get hung up on using THINGS to take the place of common sense and experience.

[Doby45]

You don't need a thermometer to cast any more than you need a speedometer to drive a motor vehicle.

But just like a speedometer, they are nice to have.

[white eagle]

I just started casting and have a bunch to learn yet
however I just keep an eye on my pot if it starts to take longer to have the sprue set up I turn it down a bit,,,,,,,,,,
seems to work at this point

[ghh3rd]

I especially use one when melting my WW to help keep below the Zinc melting point.

[No_1]

I found that it helped me. I usually don't even bother trying to cast below 700 degrees. Depending on temperature and humidity it may take more or less time for the lead to reach that point. The thermometer lets me know when the melt is at the temperature I want.

When I first got my thermometer, I used it with my lee pot. Once I added a PID controller to it I did not need it because the PID gave me the temperature. With my Master Caster, the pot is suppose to be more accurate but I have found (using my thermometer) that the pot is off to the amount of -25 degrees. There is a way to adjust this pot but I have not done it because I am going to PID this one too.

Like others said:
1) it is a good troubleshooting tool
2) You can live without it but it may make things much easier.
3) They are really not that expensive.

[BD]

I cast a lot of boolits without one, but I didn't really understand what was going on until I got one.

I wouldn't let the lack of a thermometer keep me from casting, but I wouldn't want to give mine up now that I have one either. In addition to teaching me what temps particular molds want to run at, it allows me to keep my alloy at a more constant temp as I'm running down the pot and adding ingots.
BD

[MtGun44]

Not necessary. I never use mine in normal casting.

Bill

[Bret4207]

It's an accessory that can help with basic issues. Beyond that pot temp is relatively unimportant and you probably won't use it much.

[Bass Ackward]

It's true. The world is full of get bys and the decision maker is the user. As casters, we do or don't do things for three reasons:

1. Cause it's cheap
2. Cause it's fast
3. Because it's a PIA

Somewhere on down the list we find

141. Because it is better.

You don't have to weigh or throw charges, you can dip. Comes with limitations.

You don't have to use just one brand of primer, you can mix and match primers of the same strength and type. But this comes with disadvantages.

You don't have to use all the same brass and life goes on.

And you don't have to use a thermometer either. Along with everything else that you read here , it can be done without.


My RCBS pot has 25 degree temp swings and will raise temp by just over 100 degrees from the top of the pot till empty without adjustment. That's 150 degrees from extremes. I have over 30 molds of different weights and mold materials that have sweet spots all over the place. It don't hurt to have the thermometer there except during fluxing, so it stays in. And I use it to what I believe provides a huge benefit. I can get into the sweet spot faster and stay there longer than without it. If I don't use a mold for a few years, no problem.

Now if I am dipping, it always gets in the way. And with the weight of the lead and the heat in the dipper along with the slightly enlarged diameter spout mitigates the importance of temperature to get good, consistent fill. So I don't use it but to start out.

So if you ever read Threads about why some guys prefer dipping to bottom pouring, or steel to aluminum molds, smoking molds, use of tin, reject rates, or many other subjects, put two and two together and that thermometer can be cheaper, faster, less irritating and give better results than the negatives people use to justify not buying / using one. Cast bullet making / shooting is about us correcting things that we cause during other steps to make things work.

But you still don't need it.

[PatMarlin]

John autta be writing professionally for a magazine don't ya think?

[RayinNH]

Can't say if you need one or not because I've never used one. I will admit that results are probably more consistent using one in terms of boolit weights and sizes. That said I guess it depends on your use of the boolits. If your into precision shooting then probably you would be well served with one. If your end goal is shooting in cowboy action matches, large targets at close ranges, save your money for powder or primers...Ray

[qajaq59]

John autta be writing professionally for a magazine don't ya think? Having read the forum for several years I suspect that there are guys in here that do write for magazines. They're just not tallking about it. There's a lot of technical stuff in here on occasion.

[Recluse]

First and foremost, a thermometer is a tool. For quite a few years, I never owned a set of calipers--now I wonder how I reloaded without them.

A thermometer does several things for me:

1. It gives me confirmation of the temperature I'm seeking.

2. When I'm using different alloys/blends with different molds, the thermometer helps me get to the proper temps for the combination I'm using.

3. I have some molds that really prefer to run hot. The thermometer helps me maintain the temps needed as there is fluxuation on most lead furnaces.

Besides, we're men and as men, we can never have too many tools.

:coffee:

[stephen perry]

I would say if you never saw one you would do just fine in bullet casting. In all reality your bullets are your Casting thermometer along with your daily ambient conditions.

I bought a stainless thermometer out of curiosity. Not being one that feels a need to pay Commercial rates for Chinese products I bought mine at a hardware store in Lucerne Valley, for you Pilgrims that don't know California Deserts it is way out there about 60 miles East of Victorville. I paid $14 and it hasn't melted yet.

My Mesa, Arizona Casting buddie with about the same 45+ years of time in as I have told me cooler months take a bit more juice if you are trying to maintain the 675 deg pot temp that we both try to maintain.

To me I'll shoot any bullet that has a filled out with a sharp base. Frosted bullets, shiney bullets, pitted bullets they all sho. Why waste time and lead shoot em to go. I've seen commercial bullets that some would call culls but hey they hit their mark if the shooter can hang with the gun, you can tell by now I am a road engineer that appreciates my time off so I can go shoot. I'ts 3 AM and I am going in the garage and finish loading some .222 and 22-250 for my bolts, Remington of coarse. Today will be jacketed but I have my new 225 642 bullets I will shoot next week. I have sighted in 8 rifles in the last couple weeks. These 2 today make 10. I still have my Springfield 6 Rem, .338, 30-30, a couple of .270's, a .308 coming next month, and a couple 22's to go. All my centerfires have Cast molds and all will be shot with Cast. My benchrest rifles will stay with the jacketed bullets I make.

Guys my arsenal is not much different than the guys that started in the 50's and 60's like I did. I really like my 70 and 80 year shooter friends that still share with me, especially my Cast buds.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[44man]

I use one for one thing only. When I alloy tin and antimony to WW's on my plumbers stove with a cast iron pot, I need to hold 600*. A flame is hard to adjust.
I see no use for one with an electric pot. Just set it for perfect boolits with your alloy.

[felix]

Don't let the BR guns go to waste. Shoot the suckers using boolits! Won't hurt the condom accuracy unless you shoot the boolits just as hot (literally) as the condoms. And, that is NOT necessary to have mucho' fun. ... felix

[stephen perry]

I have some interest in Cast in BR guns but not for competition. NBRSA shooting has enough challenge in dealing with shooting and egos that I would only shoot BR Cast by myself. Besides I enjoy my factory rifles as much or more with Cast. In NBRSA I shoot for .1 groups at 100 and under .3 at 200. With Cast I'm just happy to be shooting. To me if I can get Cast under an inch hopefully around a 1/2" at 100 I'm happy. I did recently buy 225 646 with the hopes of shooting well in my 722/.222 and my 700/22-250. Like I've been saying I have shot Cast since 1963 NBRSA since 1977.

I am an NBRSA Shoot Director so I have to play the role of BR but when I get home I plan for a day at the Range with Cast, I actually do both.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[captain-03]

I started out without one. Bought one noted my settings on the pot. Don't use it much now.


Same here ...

[felix]

I really enjoyed my BR gun with cast. If fact, I've actually freebored the gun too much by shooting hot loads such that its seating depth is now immaterial. I quit competition back when the PPCs became prevalent because my expected entertainment value would not be commensurate with the cost of graduating. I have been a junk yard shooter since the mid-70s.

[Char-Gar]

I have been casting bullets for 50 years. I have used all sorts of furnaces, dipper and bottom draw. I have never owned or used a lead thermometer. I am not agin em. I have just never felt the need to have one. I can tell by my castings if the melt is to hot, to cold or just right.

[Ole]

I have one, but I rarely use it when casting. I cast with a Lee 20lb pot and I cast with pretty basic alloys. I use it sometimes when melting WW's into ingots, mostly to see how close I am to the melt point.

[stephen perry]

Sounds like you shot BR in the 60-70's with some kind of 22, 6x47, and maybe a .308. Chances are those BR guns with Cast are still your most consistently accurate rifles.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[alamogunr]

I've got two thermometers. Bought the second at a discount when GAR went out of business. Main use has been to keep smelting temp down below zinc melt temp. I don't think they are a necessity in casting. I just like gadgets and for the most part thermometers fall into that category for me just like hardness testers. I like to know what I'm working with although knowing might not change what I'm doing.

John
W.TN

[44man]

I've got two thermometers. Bought the second at a discount when GAR went out of business. Main use has been to keep smelting temp down below zinc melt temp. I don't think they are a necessity in casting. I just like gadgets and for the most part thermometers fall into that category for me just like hardness testers. I like to know what I'm working with although knowing might not change what I'm doing.

John
W.TN
They are like a chronograph. Useless for working loads looking for small SD's and ES's that mean nothing for accuracy. Find accuracy first, then see how fast it shoots for fun.

[Colorado4wheel]

My Lee pots dial has zero correlation to actual tempature and even on the same setting the temp moves areound a lot as the pot empties. I can't imagine casting with that cheap pot with out a thermometer. I just got a second Lee pot (in 220v) so I am going to be interested in see if this pot actually holds a temp better. Lee did send me a new thermostat so I should change it on the 110v Lee just to see if that helps. With out the thermometer I would have a clue it changed temps so easily.

[jr81452]

You could get by for years driving nails without a hammer, but once you've used one you'll never question why you bought it. A good tool is never a wasted investment.

[qajaq59]

You could get by for years driving nails without a hammer, but once you've used one you'll never question why you bought it. A good tool is never a wasted investment.
I wont argue with that logic...... LOL

[bearcove]

I've cast for 35 years on and off. Never had one and don't plan on getting one.

[jmsj]

GeneT,
I just got back from trying out another smelter that I just finished. This is a small one(30-35 lbs.)with a heavy lid that I built to use for the small batches of range scrap and lead shot I occasionally scrounge. I built it similar to a plumbers furnace, used a cast iron burner from an old propane camp cook stove. I fired it up added wheel weights, to my surprise it melted all the weights in less than 10 minutes and all the clips were at the top. I put my thermometer in the pot and it was over 900*s and rising. It really surprised me that the tempature rose so high so fast. Had I not had a thermometer to check it with I might have got it even hotter.
Had I had more experience with smelting I might have avoided this problem. But having a thermometer helped me diagnose the problem before it got hotter. I didn't realize the melt was so high till I started skimming off the clips and saw the color of the melt. I just hope there weren't any zinc weights in there.
I find having a thermometer also helps me when casting. I write down the tempatures that work well for the paticular mold that I'm using. I have found that different mold materials and different bullet styles (hollow point/ non hp) like different tempatures.
I am still a beginner and maybe when I have more experience I won't need to rely on a thermometer. But for now I find it really helpful. jmsj

[a.squibload]

Never used one before, mainly bought one to avoid zinc, use WWs.
I hand-sort but could miss one or two.
Once I'm convinced it's all lead I'll turn it up a little for fill.

[sargenv]

Oddly enough, I got a 750 degree thermometer included with my 50,000 btu "shrimp boiling" burner. I usually cast between 650 and 725 degrees.. works like a charm.. My Lee 4-20 pot usually starts to flow around the 650 deg mark.. give or take..

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I am new to casting and have used a thermometer from the get go. For me, there is a lot to remember while casting. Trying to find out what I need to do and at what speed, is enough for me to remember. Having a thermometer eliminates one of the variables of casting. If I have the temp. at a certain place and don't get a good fill out, I can try different things to get it right. I could be casting at 700 or 850 and not even know it without one.

[myg30]

I started casting without one. Learned the hard way how to get good boolits from various molds with trial and lots of error. Now I have the nack down pat. Got a thermometer to help me make "Better" boolits with lower temps[right temps] and be more consistant. Well, that learning curve went by-by. Couldnt get a good boolit to save my butt because my mold liked it hot ! How hot? Well less than frosty! 700.750.780 +, just depended on the mold and the outside temps. When ever someone post they got wrinkles or poor fill out the anwser is up the heat, right !
I dont use one any more, but keep it around.

Mike

[felix]

You are so correct, Stephen. ... felix