.45-70 and plain bases

[JDL]

Last week I leaded my .45-70 after only 6 shots (no fillers used) using the Lyman 457193 at around 1600 fps. I could push out long slivers of lead using a tight patch and, with some work with a brush, it cleaned up. When using the RCBS 45-300 FN I had no problem and figgured the gas check was the reason. Shouldn't 1600 fps be attainable with a plain base WW boolit?
Somewhere in time, I ran across a tidbit about plain base boolits shouldn't be sized for the throat diameter (mine were) or they would lead, instead groove diameter was preferred. Comments?-JDL

[StarMetal]

What powder were you using? For the heck of it try a filler like dacron or kapok and see what a difference it makes. Also what lube are you using?

Joe

[Bass Ackward]

Last week I leaded my .45-70 after only 6 shots (no fillers used) using the Lyman 457193 at around 1600 fps. I could push out long slivers of lead using a tight patch and, with some work with a brush, it cleaned up. When using the RCBS 45-300 FN I had no problem and figgured the gas check was the reason. Shouldn't 1600 fps be attainable with a plain base WW boolit?
Somewhere in time, I ran across a tidbit about plain base boolits shouldn't be sized for the throat diameter (mine were) or they would lead, instead groove diameter was preferred. Comments?-JDL

JD,

David (Maineboy) uses even softer mix at that velocity. I expect that he will contact you. In fact I think that he just uses LQA for lube. So yea, it can be done.

I use 10 BHN to hunt with myself. But I ALWAYS use a GC on a rifle bullet that I want to run rifle velocities whether I need it or not.

[bdoyle]

What rifle are you using? I use 20:1 alloy sized .459 in my marlin with good results. I was using SR4759. I don't remember the velocity, probably in the 1400-1600 range. I have used the rcbs bullet to 1800 but it is not a load I enjoyed firing.

Brian

[JDL]

My load was 33 grains of SR-4759, NRA 50/50 lube, and it probably would benifit with a filler. Rifle was a Browning B-78 that has a very smooth,mirror-like bore.
Perhaps the WWs were too hard to obtruate and caused gas cutting? No problem with the gc'd RCBS and I have, in the past, used an inverted gc with plain base boolits when using heavy charges of 2400, without leading. I may have to back off on the velocity to get better than the 3" groups I was getting but, I am trying to work up a load for elk and would like at least 1600 fps. In all probabily, I will have to revert back to the paper patched boolits it likes so well.-JDL

[StarMetal]

JDL

My load for my Browning 1886 Winchester copy is the 405 gr RCBS bullet gaschecked over a healthy (non Springfield load) charge of H4895 powder I won't recite the grains for. It gives me 1850 fps out of a 20 inch carbine barrel and a sore shoulder. It will hold two inch groups at 100 yards, but not too many as your arms starts to hurt from the beating. For my deer load it's all the same except the bullets are aircooled WW's, not water quenched. I've had really excellent results with it and the do mushroom some without shearing. It just knocks the deer right down, no having to bloodtrail them with this caliber. No leading of the barrel either. Hope this helps some.

Joe

[jh45gun]

I use a Lee bullet the one that is hollow based and is supposed to drop at .459. I use the low end of the Marlin/Winchester loading chart with 3031 and lube with Lee Liquid Alox and I have absolutly no leading.

[Maineboy]

JDL, I have shot alot of Lee 405 plain base boolits in my Marlin 45-70, which has a .4575 barrel. My mould drops them at .459 and they are loaded unsized. Most of the time they are cast of straight wheel weights, but my hunting loads are somewhere around 50-50 or 60-40 wheel weights/lead pipe. My standard hunting load was 50 grains of 3031 at about 1660 fps. More recently, I am loading them over 50 grains of CMR100 for 1870 fps. As Bass Akwards says, I mostly use liquid alox, applied fairly heavily, although my last batches have been pan lubed with Felix lube. With both lubes, I do get some leading, but it cleans out quite easily. The leading looks like a light gray wash at the end of the barrel. It brushes right out with a bit of copper scouring pad wrapped around an old worn brush I have, but I really don't clean the barrel very often and can't see any accuracy loss after firing many rounds.

[beagle]

About a year ago, I went through a phase of testing all of Lyman's PB design bullets as I'd just had them hollowpointed. This was while we were all spreading the word on "beagling" and at the time, I was also playing with oversize bullets in the .45s.

The general Lyman 457XXX series will usually lead some without a filler unless you happen to have a "lucky" mould that casts over .458". The 457191 seems to be particularily bad as I've shot some that cast .456+ in my NUmber 1 Ruger and it leaded like a dog.

Beagling the size up and sizing to .459" or even .460" helps immensly and eliminated leading in everything that I shot except a 457192.

The use of a dacron filler eliminated leading in that nasty rascal.

Most of these test were run in a Marlin M1895 .45/70 with the 1-20 twist rifling.

So, size big and if that don't help, use a filler, even if it fills just a bit of space under the bullet as that will act kinda as a GC and help seal things up.

I have one old 457122HP that has the slightly beveled base and it's particullarily bad about leading if shot as cast with no diameter enhancement./beagle

[44man]

My Browning has a larger bore then most barrels and needs a .460 or larger boolit to shoot good. I would Beagle the mold and see what happens.

[Buckshot]

.............Um, shot the Lee 405gr cast of pure lead form my MAS36 conversion at 2100 fps with no leading. Accurate as long as you could stand the pounding. Oh yeah, the slugs were paper patched.

..............Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

Shouldn't 1600 fps be attainable with a plain base WW boolit?

Somewhere in time, I ran across a tidbit about plain base boolits shouldn't be sized for the throat diameter (mine were) or they would lead, instead groove diameter was preferred. Comments?-JDL

JD,

I wanted some time to think on this a little because I .... don't shoot a lot of plain base outta rifles. The problem with the statements above is that they are broad and can't be answered with a one liner.

The second statement of yours, drives the top one. Increasing bullet diameter to fill the throat serves mostly to improve ignition. If ignition improvement brings pressure up too fast that the base cannot handle it, then you get bullet failure. So in theory, a bore sized bullet might just be the edge that you need to cut pressure enough that the base doesn't lead. Faster powders will cause that before slow. Larger bore diameters before small. Because the larger the bore, the more peak pressure is pushed back towards the throat. So the old law was to start a cast bullet out a easy as possible for the best accuracy / velocity combination.

And that is why you hear so many people say that larger bores won't shoot cast as well as smaller ones. It's easier to make a smaller (to a point that can be argued) bore shoot. And they are more .... flexible to have more options, so you increase your odds of finding a really great group. But they aren't any more accurate than a large bore in my opinion.

Regardless of whether I am using a GC or not, my toughest range for obtaining top accuracy with lighter, 45 caliber bullets, is the 1600 - 1900 range. Above or below that is easy by comparrison. And people wonder why I lost my hair so young.