The legality of shipping ammunition and components through the USPS

[theperfessor]

A recent thread here concerning swapping brass and shipping primed and unprimed cases through the USPS has brought forth several different responses from members here.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=89736

Rather than play the "he said, she said, I've done it and never been caught" game I have decided to seek clarification from the Inspector General of the USPS.

Here is the text of the letter I plan to send. I have spent more than an hour on the USPS website and can find no way to send them an email so unless my wife, a recently retired employee of the Postal Service, can get an email address from one of her still-employed colleagues I will probably have to use snail mail. If anyone thinks that any editing should be done to further clarify these questions please chime in.

____________________________

I would respectfully request your assistance in the clarification of an issue that has recently arisen among members of a website I am a member of concerning the legality of mailing small arms ammunition and certain components that are used in assembling small arms ammunition.

As you know modern small arms ammunition used for sporting purposes consists of four basic components:

(1) the case, which contains the primer, powder, and projectile together as one unit.

(2) the primer, which is the impact sensitive component that when struck by the firing pin of a firearm ignites the powder charge.

(3) the powder, which burns to provide the energy to propel the projectile.

(4) the projectile. which consists of a bullet or shot charge.

My questions are as follows:

(a) Is it legal to mail the empty cases that do not contain a primer, powder, or projectile.

(b) Is it legal to mail primed cases that consist of a case and primer but no powder or projectile.

(c) Is it legal to mail loaded ammunition that consists of all four components assembled as a unit.

These questions are only concerned with mailings within the USA.

I have consulted the postal inspector at the local post office and I'm fairly sure I know the answers to the questions listed here but other members of the site have apparently received different responses to these questions from postal employees in different offices.

As none of us wish to violate the law or endanger an employee of the Postal Service your response to this is extremely important.

Any references to applicable regulations that you would wish to include with your response would be appreciated.

Thank you very much for your assistance in this matter.

______________________________

I will of course include the proper salutation and my email/snail mail address; I am witholding that for my own privacy.

[Bill*]

No editing necessary that I can see. Nice and concise too! Looking forward to the reply

[WallyM3]

I will be very interested in the response.

I've done some selling on AA and got my "do's" and "don'ts" from sellers' experiences and research as exchanged on the Forums.

The distillation is: if it can go bang or whoosh, USPS won't ship it. Least wise, that's my take on it.

Good letter, pref. I hope they're more responsive than they were to my persistent and repeated "false change of address" complaint.

[deerslayer]

It will be interesting to get the exact answer from the source.

[theperfessor]

I'd like to thank prgallo for this link to the official document on the USPS website that provide the answers to the questions I was prepared to ask.

http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c3_016.htm

I see no further need to send a letter as I would bet that any response would a reference to this document.

To boil it down:

You can send unprimed brass and unprimed shotshells, lead, and nonexplosive/nonincendiary bullets via USPS.

You can't send primed brass or primed shotshells, primers, powder, loaded ammunition, or any explosive or incendiary materials via USPS.

Other shippers will ship materials that the USPS will not so I really don't see this as a big problem.

Case closed as far as I am concerned.

[Johnch]

You can't send primed brass or primed shotshells, primers, powder, loaded ammunition, or any explosive or incendiary materials via USPS.


Interesting
As in the last month I have gotten primed brass from a supply house through the mail

I guess they just stuck it in the box and shipped it
And no one checked

Live and learn

John

[lylejb]

As in the last month I have gotten primed brass from a supply house through the mail

By chance, did it have a sticker on the box that said "ORM-D"

there are lots of items that normally will not ship, but in small enough quantities can be classified as "ORM-D consumer commodity" and ship.

I tried to look up a list of what items can be reclassified as ORM_D, but I got a headache before I got an answer.

I looked at the link, and it seems like the way they referenced primers would mean loose primers ( trays / box / case), but I'm not a lawyer.

If a supply house is sending primed cases by mail, I would think they know what there doing.
I mean, would YOU risk your business to save maybe $2 in shipping?

It just seems like we're missing something.

[theperfessor]

I'm not a lawyer either so I'm going to take the safe course should I ever have reason to ship primed brass. And I wouldn't trust the actions of a shipping floor employee over the printed words of a federal statute.

I think the key here is that primers are explosive materials singly OR in bulk. I'd rather not be the test case over this.

[frankenfab]

Did you ever notice that bags of charcoal have the "ORM-D" logo on them?

We better be careful with that stuff! It might turn into gunpowder all by itself!:roll:

[WallyM3]

The ORM-D label for ammo, etc., specifies "Cartridges, Small Arms".

From memory, this works for up to 60lbs (I think). Maybe a different weight, but there is some sort of limit.

[Johnch]

By chance, did it have a sticker on the box that said "ORM-D"



I don't remember and the box is long gone


But I do remember the primed brass was sub ed for unprimed brass
Because I remember I had order unprimed brass and was pleasntly supprised

John

[Texasflyboy]

The ORM-D label for ammo, etc., specifies "Cartridges, Small Arms".

For the record ORM-D = Other Regulated Material - Domestic and as you've indicated many shippers wisely choose to declare which ORM-D the package contains. I've seen:

Cartridges, Small Arms
Cartridges, Small Arms w/ INERT Projectile


ORM-D Link to URL (http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/safety-security/hazmat/complyhmregs.htm#hm)

"ORM-D materials" are materials such as a consumer commodity, which although is subject to the regulations presents a limited hazard during transportation due to its form, quantity and packaging. Each ORM-D material and category of ORM-D material is listed in the 49 CFR 172.101 Table (http://setonresourcecenter.com/msdshazcom/htdocs/172HMT/172_101000.HTM) and 173.144.

[theperfessor]

Buckshot posted a locked sticky in the Swapping and Selling section with a link to the actual USPS regulations and a summary of the sections that are of the most interest and concern to the members here who trade brass and other reloading components.

It should come in handy as a reference in the future as this is one of those questions that seems to periodically arise with the growth of this forum.

[mike in co]

from
note 50 on: case, cartridge empty with primer

note 50: Cases, cartridge, empty with primer
which are made of metallic or plastic casings
and meeting the classification criteria
of Division 1.4 are not regulated for domestic
transportation.

that means you can mail them....

this is from 172-102

[theperfessor]

Mike, do you have a link to that note or is that part of the regs referenced in this thread?

[spqrzilla]

ORM-D is not mailable.

I'm puzzled why there is any confusion about this. Ammunition, powder, primers are simply not mailable.

[JIMinPHX]

Buckshot posted ammo shipping guidelines recently - http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=89983

[JIMinPHX]

ORM-D is not mailable.

I'm puzzled why there is any confusion about this. Ammunition, powder, primers are simply not mailable.

I think that there are different varieties of ORM-D.

[theperfessor]

I pmed Buckshot the other day and asked him to post the link to the regs and a summary as a sticky. But Mike in co, a well respected member here who is involved in selling brass posted the info with a reference to another document in post #14 that says you can.

Everybody I've talked to at the PO, including a postal inspector, tells me you can't do it.

Another member pointed out that the online order form for Midway lists USPS flat rate as an option for primed brass, but the order form in the latest Midway flyer specifically says that they will ship primed brass by UPS ground only.

So now I'm back to not knowing exactly what to believe. :confused:

I might have to write that letter after all.

[theperfessor]

I'm not confused any more.

I finally found the reference mike in co was referring to and that he cited in his post.

The reference is to the US Department of Transportation's regulations and classifications of hazardous materials of different types. It allows shipping of primed brass by common carriers. It has nothing to do with the US Postal Service's regulations that govern what is legal to ship via the postal service. The two are entirely different agencies.

Yes, you can ship primed brass. No, you can't do it via the USPS.

[lylejb]

I think some of the explanation / confusion is between DOT regs, and post office policies.

DOT regs say you can ship powder, primers, ect in the USA. That's why UPS, Fedex, motor freight co.'s CAN do it.

Post office policy / regs say they WON'T do it.

Ok, you posted while I was typing.

[mike in co]

Mike, do you have a link to that note or is that part of the regs referenced in this thread?

that is a direct cut and paste of note 50 from the link posed to 172-101...
in the chart for the letter "c", in the line cartridge case....

so can anyone show us the usps "rule" that say sone cannot ship primed brass ?

i do know that primed brass is not subject to hazmat restirctions, not hazmat fees.

i have seen ads by the post office saying no ammo....but never seen a "rule" nor "law" that says no primed brass........i think some companies ues the 172-101/172/102 to mail......right or wrong.

inquiring minds still want to know.....

i do not care what an employee of usps says..i want to see the thing in print in thier rule book.

i aint saying i'm right..i just moved here from mosurrii.....(lol)

[mike in co]

ORM-D is not mailable.

I'm puzzled why there is any confusion about this. Ammunition, powder, primers are simply not mailable.

because it is not PRIMERS, it is PRIMED BRASS...........it does not cause the pc next to it to go off, which a box of primers may do.

a big difference.

mike in co

[mike in co]

Buckshot posted a locked sticky in the Swapping and Selling section with a link to the actual USPS regulations and a summary of the sections that are of the most interest and concern to the members here who trade brass and other reloading components.

It should come in handy as a reference in the future as this is one of those questions that seems to periodically arise with the growth of this forum.


the possible confusion is that the listing by buckshot has a note c which says that per cfr49 xxx are not hazardous and can be shipped.....it says un primed brass,BUT PRIMED BRASS IS LISTED IN THE SAME SECTION AS NON HAZ,so why not in the list by the usps note......



gues some has to go read all of the usps rules.....

i know i have recieved primed brass in the mail in the past( i have not bought any in a while).

[Buckshot]

the possible confusion is that the listing by buckshot has a note c which says that per cfr49 xxx are not hazardous and can be shipped.....it says un primed brass,BUT PRIMED BRASS IS LISTED IN THE SAME SECTION AS NON HAZ,so why not in the list by the usps note......



gues some has to go read all of the usps rules.....

i know i have recieved primed brass in the mail in the past( i have not bought any in a while).

c. Shotgun Hulls, Empty Casings, Nonmetallic Shotgun Hulls, or Casings Without Primers. These articles are not classified as explosives or hazardous materials under 49 CFR, and therefore are mailable subject to the applicable mailing rules.

...............That would suggest to me that primed cases are not mailable, no? It doesn't say "Empty cartridge case's WITH primers are mailable". I'm sure you can, and people HAVE shipped primed brass via USPS, but it was without them knowing about it. Once many years back I'd ordered some stuff from The Old Western Scrounger which included a few thousand of those CBC made #56 Berdan primers for the Mag-Tech brass shotshells. They didn't charge me, nor did they pay the UPS haz-Mat fee. It was certainly fine by me, and I sure didn't call up UPS and tell them :-)

..............Buckshot

[nicholst55]

While I understand that it is not (repeat, NOT) legal to ship them by USPS, I have, however, received percussion caps via the U.S. Mail - from a widely known and respected dealer/distributor in muzzle loading items. It struck me as odd (and definitely wrong) at the time, but... I didn't complain.

[theperfessor]

To clear up a few points.

1. The reason I couldn't find the reference mike in co referred to for a while was because I was looking on the USPS site. And the regs on the USPS site clearly state that you can't ship primers. Let's not get confused with the plural "s" in primers. Primers in bulk, a single primer in or not in a case, doesn't matter. Postal regs make shipping it/them illegal.

2. The USDOT regulates the shipping of hazardous materials and how they must be marked while in transit. They do classify primed cases slightly differently than primers in bulk. As has been pointed out, you can ship primers and primed cases by common carrier. But the USPS, while bound by DOT rules governing shipping, doesn't have to permit shipping of things the DOT rules allow. And they don't. The link Buckshot put up ARE the rules covering what the USPS will and won't ship.

3. I think confusion with, or outright ignorance of the rules has resulted in some shippers inadvertently shipping things through the USPS that aren't permitted. I'd be real leery of thinking that just because somebody shipped something that way in the past makes it legal under USPS rules. A local guy was recently busted for shipping illegal drugs through the mail. He had done it many times before and finally got caught. That didn't make it legal, it just meant he wasn't caught until now.

4. I'm not sure Midway's online order system is very smart. It wouldn't be the first time computer software was programmed incorrectly. Their printed material clearly states that they will only ship primed cases only by UPS ground.

Look, I don't have a dog in this fight. But I enjoy the friendships I've made with many of the people here, and I would hate to hear that one of my friends got busted on a Federal rap for shipping something illegally through the USPS. And I have nothing but respect for the Inspectors of the USPS, they are about as efficient as any LE agency in this country. The reason the USPS is one of the safest and most secure ways to send things is through their efforts, and they have a fearsome reputation for routing out internal illegalities (petty theft, etc.) among the postal workers I've talked to. My wife told me that a dime once lay on the floor of the mail handling area at the PO where she worked until the local postmaster, accompanied by a Union steward went to pick it up.

Please don't post a bunch of nonsense here about your problems with the PO, how your package got lost or damaged, etc. It's happened to us, and my wife worked for the PO for thirty years. Post it elsewhere if you must, it has nothing to do with this thread.

[mike in co]

buckshot, reread my comment on WHY usps says you can ship brass. their reference is the exact same paragraph that also lists primmed brass.

again there is a significant, and mostly understood, difference in pacakaged PRIMERS and PRIMED BRASS.

packaged primers will easily detonate with simple impact, and most likely cause the sympthetic detonation of surrounding primers.

primed brass will not do this.....there is a big difference.

[mike in co]

professor,
why not send your letter asking for an approval to ship primmed brass.

nowhere does it specifically say no primmed brass. yes there is a statement to empty brass shotgun hulls and unprimmed brass being ok, but again it does not say that primmed brass is a no go....until it says so in black and white, i say yes.

usps's reference to brass and unprimed brass comes from the exact paragraph that list primmed brass.( that is from 49 cfr 172-101, and 102.)

having said all that, usps says no explosives and both primers and primed brass have the same listing ...1.4s

[357shooter]

In researching this a bit, I did run across the statement that the USPS cannot authorize or give approval regarding fireams and ammo. That request must be made to the ATF.

This is the Federal Government and can get a bit cumbersome to deal with.

I don't have time right now to re-find the statement so you can try asking the USPS. Just don't expect to get a reply that actually clarifies anything further.

For me, I've seen enough to not send primed brass through the USPS. The prior post includes the "as define in 1.x". Researching that is a pain all by itself.

[theperfessor]

Mike, before I go on I'd like to say that I view this interchange of views as a legitimate disagreement between two honorable gentlemen trying to seek the truth among a confusing set of cross-referenced regulations between three Federal entities - the USPS, which has its own rules governing what it will permit in the mail stream, the DOT which governs shipping and labeling of hazardous materials, and the BATF which governs explosives among other things.

I think the point of contention is that I'm going by what is specifically listed as acceptable and inferring that if it isn't listed it is unacceptable; you're going by what is not listed as being unacceptable as inferring that it is acceptable. In other words, it is a disagreement between commission and omission, or between inferring from a positive versus inferring from the lack of a negative. This is one of those things that philosophers love to give as a problem to students in a Philosophy 101 class and is somewhat of a "logic trap".

I did take the time and trouble to talk with a postal inspector, not just a clerk. There was no hesitation in their reply and they seemed very knowledgeable about what I was asking and what the distinction was between bulk primers and primed brass. The answer was no in both cases.

I did look at the USPS online regs, where it specifically states what can legally be shipped, i.e my inference as listed in the previous paragraph.

I did look at the reference you cited to the DOT regs, but inferred that it covered shipping and labeling requirements for common carriers, i.e. UPS and others. To the best of my knowledge the USPS is NOT classed as a common carrier (my wife says they're an "uncommon carrier", but that's another issue...) and can set their own rules.

Mike, I've been wrong before, many, many times. And I may darn well be wrong here. And if I am I will be glad to acknowledge that on this forum and will recommend that Buckshot change the sticky to reflect that.

I know that your business provides a valuable service to members here, so I think you have more to gain or lose by this than I do. I don't sell brass or ammo or anything else. The only reloading materials I've ever shipped through the PO is lead ingots, lead head hammers, a couple of molds, and a few bullets for some other members to try out. Like I said, I really don't have a canine in this encounter.

My first post in this thread was a letter that I had planned to send to clarify this point. I think it was well worded and direct and covers the issues under discussion. You have my blessing to use that as is, add to it, or write one of your own, just please put your own name on it.

If you choose to do so then I would ask that you post the reply you get here on this forum. I'm sure we all would appreciate that.

Until then, if I have reason to ship any primed brass, it won't be through the USPS. Others may do as they see fit.

[2wheelDuke]

Does the USPS rate spent brass as unprimed? I don't think it should be a problem since everything on a spent piece of brass is completely inert.

On vacation I wanted to mail the brass back to myself from a range outing. I was at friend's motorcycle shop where they do plenty of business online, so they're constantly shipping parts via USPS.

His wife handles the shipping, but she was too nervous about the spent brass, and felt that she'd be taking a risk of setting off explosive detectors by shipping the brass.

I'm not sure how accurate any of that is, but so far I haven't seen any problem with people sending spent brass in flat rate boxes.

I'm not sure of the specifics of any explosive sensing techniques and equipment, but I'd kinda guess there'd be some distinction between explosive compounds and any leftover residues from the primer and powder.

[theperfessor]

The USPS regs specifically say that shipping unprimed brass is perfectly legal. They make no distinction between new vs used.

The gray area may be for brass that has a spent primer still in the case. I would bet it would be OK if the primer were incapable of exploding, another words if it were an inert item.

But that's a real good question.

[2wheelDuke]

The USPS regs specifically say that shipping unprimed brass is perfectly legal. They make no distinction between new vs used.

The gray area may be for brass that has a spent primer still in the case. I would bet it would be OK if the primer were incapable of exploding, another words if it were an inert item.

But that's a real good question.


I agree that inert is inert. I sure hope it's no problem, I'm expecting 4-5,000 pieces of spent brass in several flat rate boxes in the near future thanks to the swapping & selling section of the forum.