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NSP64
07-29-2010, 11:12 PM
Bottleneck rifle cases(308 win). How often do you anneal them? I use Lee neck sizing dies, but I should probably anneal still. I'm just trying to figure out when.

white eagle
07-29-2010, 11:23 PM
really no pat answer
I would probably go 5 loadings the first time
personally I go every three but that is not needed
I just do it because it seems to make the cartridges I anneal more accurate but that is not always either
I only do a box (20)or two so I don't anneal a bunch of brass
forgot to mention
I anneal for 280 ai,220swift ai,25-06 rem,and 358 win so far

kmag
07-30-2010, 12:21 AM
I never anneal. I can find other cases easier than going through the annealing process. If not done correctly it can foul up the cases also. I just shoot them and keep them trimmed stop shooting them if the primer pocket gets loose. Have 308 and 30-06 with over 25 loadings. No problems yet.

Bob Krack
07-30-2010, 04:21 AM
Bottleneck rifle cases(308 win). How often do you anneal them? I use Lee neck sizing dies, but I should probably anneal still. I'm just trying to figure out when.
The first part of an article from the great Fred Huntington of RCBS fame as found on "Steve's pages".

http://stevespages.com/table3.html

http://stevespages.com/caselife.html



Case Life with Full Length Resizing.
by Fred Huntington.

The following figures and information are from a test conducted to get some idea of what case life would be with full length resizing. The rifle used was a Model 70 Winchester Factory gun with .30-06 cases, 2 each of Remington make and Winchester make! The gun was chronographed with factory Winchester loads of 150 grain type. Three shots averaged 2813 fps muzzle velocity. The load we used in this test was 58 grains of 4350 with 150 grain Speer bullet which gave, on our Beckman Berkeley Chronograph, 2895 fps muzzle velocity. So the handload was about 82 feet per second faster and pressures that much higher than factory loads. The loaded case neck size minimum was .3335 and maximum was .3355 diameter.

Fired case size from above rifle Model 70, .30-06 cal. - Base .469, shoulder .443, neck .341.

Case sized in Sizing die, regular stock .30-06 Normal die Base .469, shoulder .437, neck .328

Number of times fired and full-length resized Winchester - 55 and 50 times Remington - 52 and 36 times

No. 1 Remington case split on neck at the 36th firing and full length resizing.

No. 2 Remington case split on neck at the 52nd firing and full length resizing.

No. 3 Winchester case split on the neck at the 50th firing and full-length resizing.

No. 4 Winchester case split on the neck at the 55th firing and full-length resizing.

Special note: No cases split during resizing. All split cases were noted after firing.

Lubrication was used between reloadings on outside of case only. No lubrication was used inside of case neck. We were trying to give the case the hardest use possible, and there is no doubt but what lubrication inside the case neck of proper type and amount would have prolonged case-neck life.

Another interesting sidelight is the fact these cases were never trimmed during the above reloadings or firings! Hence, this sort of blasts the contention that full-length sizing lengthens cases and headspace, and shortens case life.

Bob

Wayne Smith
07-30-2010, 09:19 AM
I make 8mm-06, 7.7-06, and Nagant revolver brass from .223. I shoot the .405 Win, 7.5 Swiss and 8x56R. While the 06 case changes aren't dramatic the .223 changes are. The other brass is of questionable ongoing availability or expensive. Annealing in my lead pot is a normal part of my loading regmine. The necked brass I anneal about every fifth loading, give or take a couple. I'm not dogmatic about it. The Nagant I've just started so I don't know, beyond the first, how often it will need annealing.

cajun shooter
07-30-2010, 09:51 AM
I do know that when I went to Sniper School in 1989 we were shown film that showed the cases being annealed. The above test shows that the cases will take a beating but did not address the down range results which are the most important. There have been plenty of test on annealing on this forum. I do know that Kenny Wasserburger anneals his cases after every firing. I will not argue with his results. I know that he does a different type of shooting also. I started annealing my 45-70 cases before loading and the targets are much better than when I did not. There was one member who posted he had over a 2 inch difference in his results that favored the annealing of cases. Try one group of 10 both ways and see if it gives you a benifit

nicholst55
07-30-2010, 10:58 PM
I suspect that the casual reloader will never see the need to anneal. We all know him - the guy who loads his brass 4-5 times and trashes it. For the more advanced/dedicated/anal/frugal reloader, there are definite benefits to annealing brass. There are several acceptable methods of doing it; I use the Hornady Annealing System, as seen at the link below. My two complaints about the system is that they don't have a shell holder for large rimmed cartridges like the .45-70, and the Tempilaq dries up quickly. I've improvised a way to anneal my .45-70 brass, and I think I'm going to try a Tempilaq crayon, so that solves those two problems.

I have read many times that the guys doing it the way I started out, standing their brass up in a pan of water and heating it with a butane torch, are probably overheating their brass. I dunno. I do know that it doesn't take long for the Tempilaq to melt when using the Hornady system! For what the Hornady system costs, I'll stick with it.

Hornady Annealing System (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=360902)

Wayne Smith
07-31-2010, 12:39 PM
I assume most of us on this site have a lead pot. A pot of lead at 650-700 degrees is perfect for annealing brass without overheating. I take the first piece, hold the rim or base in my fingers, and hold the neck in the lead until I can't hold on. I do a slow count as I'm holding. I then put on a glove and do the rest to that count. Uses available resources and I don't have to buy anything to do it.

felix
07-31-2010, 01:15 PM
Actually, you can go faster with a table standing torch with extra fine nozzle. Use same heat measurement technique. Drop into water bucket or throw into a snow bank (I only anneal when snow is on the ground, and do my work at night so I can see color for a time to drop.) ... felix

Tom Myers
07-31-2010, 01:39 PM
Wayne,

How do you keep your alloy from sticking to the cases?


I assume most of us on this site have a lead pot. A pot of lead at 650-700 degrees is perfect for annealing brass without overheating. I take the first piece, hold the rim or base in my fingers, and hold the neck in the lead until I can't hold on. I do a slow count as I'm holding. I then put on a glove and do the rest to that count. Uses available resources and I don't have to buy anything to do it.

higgins
07-31-2010, 02:37 PM
In The Complete Book of Practical Handloading, John Wootters gives instructions for annealing cases in molten lead. The brief summary is...set thermostat at 750-800....pick up each case by the head and dip in light machine oil for about half its length...shake off excess oil...dip neck, shoulder, and about a quarter-inch of the body into the molten lead...just as you begin to feel an uncomfortable degree of heat in your finger tip, drop the case into water. After some more discussion of gadgets to hold several cases for each dip, he says if you don't hold the cases, leave them in the lead about 8-12 seconds but not more than 15 seconds. Many years ago I formed some .30/06 cases into 8mm Mauser and annealed the 8mms in lead for 8 seconds after forming; a few of those cases are still intact after their umpteenth moderate jacketed bullet load without additional annealing. I dipped the case necks and shoulders in powdered graphite instead of oil. I don't recall lead sticking to be a problem. It would be wise to closely inspect the inside of case visually and with a bent paper clip to make sure there are no lead drippings inside the case. These old basic handloading books a few authors did years ago are a great source of information for beginning reloaders if they would take time to read them before attempting to load ammo. Most of the guys back then dwelt on technique and background information and used basic equipment and showed the reader how to get into reloading for a reasonable outlay for tools and components.

NSP64
08-01-2010, 10:04 AM
I used the Felix method and spun them in my drill while heating to color change, then dump in cold water. Groups looked better.

Doc Highwall
08-01-2010, 11:22 AM
One of the reasons you will get different answers is somebody who shoots light loads in a min chamber with proper sizing dies meaning not over worked will be able to go longer between annealing. Now if you are shooting MAX loads only and have a chamber that is on the max size with dies that are on the min size you will be over working your brass and have to anneal more often.

Wayne Smith
08-01-2010, 02:03 PM
I seldom have a problem with lead sticking - I tend to do it with polished cases and flick off any lead that sticks. Oil works as Higgins mentioned.

smoked turkey
08-04-2010, 01:13 PM
I would like to know of a source of the Tempilaq crayon (650 degree?) that nicholst55 mentioned. I made look around Springfield Mo area for one. I checked welding and plumbing shops and found that some used to handle them but due to lack of use they didn't restock. I did go to the web site and couldn't really get any info. I think if one would call them they might sell to the general public but didn't call them. I did read on the site that the area in question..the brass, must be hot at the time of application or it wouldn't work. That must not be right or the concept wouldn't work.

southpaw
08-04-2010, 01:47 PM
http://www.industrial-markers.co.uk/prodMain.aspx?rangeCode=TLAQ&br=14_118

Did a quick google search and this is what it turned up. Not sure if this is what you were looking for but it does appear that they sell it.

Jerry Jr.

lwknight
08-04-2010, 11:43 PM
Wayne,

How do you keep your alloy from sticking to the cases?


Use uncleaned brass and near pure lead. Tin is what makes it stick.
The sizing lube works wonders to keep it from sticking.

lwknight
08-04-2010, 11:45 PM
I used to anneal the cases but eventually gave that business up as an unnecesary waste of time. Brass is cheap enough and I'm getting good milage without annealing.