Gross overload found at range

[kawalekm]

Was out shooting at the local range this last weekend and picked up this .44 brass I found on the ground. This is NOT one of my reloads, but an anonomous piece of brass I just picked up. In this first pic you can see how flat the primer became and how the manufacturer's name is ironed out.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/kawalekm/44magnumcasehead.jpg
Look at the rim of the case in this second pic.
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/kawalekm/44magnumrim.jpg
See how thin the rim is? I measured both my own case and the over load case with a caliper. My rim measures 55 thousand's thick. The rim of the overloaded case is only 25 thousand's thick! I've seen flattened primers before, but this is the very, very first time I've seen an overload so hot it crushed a rim! I am really worried about whoever loaded and fired this cartridge!
Michael

[303Guy]

Where did the material go? I don't see any firing pin cratering. It looks to me like a defective case with excess headspace and that that is what flattened the primer like that. From the second pic it is hard to say there are pressure signs on the side of the case, like shallowing of the groove and head and rim expansion. More pics would help.

[Harter66]

I'll they were sore enough the morning after to figure it out. That or they can't figure out why the cyl won't turn.

I suppose it could have been an honest 2x charge loading "specials" in mag cases or a slipped bullit in a tube fed rifle or maybe I just want to believe no one is that dumb.

How about a full house behind a squib .

Sure glade it wasn't you or I.

[gray wolf]

Nice find and a very good thing to share with us. This is why I / We- get so upset with the people that think they know what they are doing, and get Pi$$ed off when we try to explain things and call them out on there behavior.
Well you didn't pick up any gun parts or body parts, so it looks like whoever loaded that case will live another day.
I am at the point that I don't care who gets jacked up and who doesn't, I will call them as I see them. As I have done in the past.
I could go on with this but I will leave room for the rest of you.

Sam

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I vote for the defective rim theory.

BvT

[44man]

Not me, that is a gross overload and maybe a hefty load of 4227 in a hot gun.
Fast powder that hot would most likely blow the gun from the sudden pressure rise.
Who knows what powder was used? Some jump super high with a few tenths more or a temperature change.
296 and H110 are very forgiving with overloads and heat but 4227 is not.
Being a WW case, the pressure was out of sight, you will not have bad brass from them. This looks like a case of "MAGNUM" thinking---gosh guys, look how fast I can make my gun shoot! I just fill the case and compress it with the bullet. Naw, books are for sissies! [smilie=l:

[Eutectic]

Where did the material go? I don't see any firing pin cratering. It looks to me like a defective case with excess headspace and that that is what flattened the primer like that.

You are correct 303Guy.

Excess headspace as in at least .030" in this case will flatten a primer real scary looking with a load at normal psi. The side view shows nothing in the web area to denote high pressure either.
I had some 7.62 x 39 brass that flattened primers like that with a load I'd shot hundreds of rounds prior. Only one lot of new brass did it. Careful measurement found the shoulder set back .025"! (ON New cases!) Same brand different lot headspaced correctly. They looked normal upon firing and the short shoulder brass looked like the .44 Mag shown with the same identical load.!!!!

Eutectic

[Blammer]

I suspect it's a flawed case to start with, the thin rim.

IF the rim were flattened out that much where did the extra brass go? PLUS why is there still a NORMAL looking extractor groove? If the rim were thinned surely that would have been drastically affected too.

Isn't it interesting how people jump to conclusions to support their own "theroy" of how things should be done. It's laughable.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
All other things aside, OUCH!
That looks like an OH NO LOAD.:Fire::Fire:
Hope no one was hurt, & the gun was not ruined.:Fire::Fire:

[lwknight]

I third the logic of 303guy and eutectic and blammer.
There is no proof of an overload.
I have found brand new 45acp brass just like that.

[steg]

+1 with lwknight, and the other posters as to the thin rim theory.........steg

[AZ-Stew]

Thin rim, improper head space.

When the firing pin hit the primer, it pushed the case into the chamber until the rim hit the bottom of the recess, or the rear face of the cylinder for a non-recessed chamber. At that point, there was, according to your measurements, .030 empty space (excessive head space) between the case head and the recoil shield. Once the case stopped moving forward, the firing pin dented the primer base and detonated the priming charge. Pressure within the primer pocket pushed the primer back until it hit the recoil shield. As pressure built within the case from the burning powder, the protruding walls of the primer were slightly bulged. Finally, the case was forced rearward until it hit the recoil shield, forcing the primer back into the pocket and forcing the bulged primer walls to fill the chamfer around the primer pocket, making it look severely flattened. This is why it looks like a gross overload.

Regards,

Stew

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Send the brass back to the manufacturer. You might get a boat load back! If nothing else they can see that something is wrong in production.

[acemedic13]

Thanks for the blow by blow stew. That was a big help to me in understanding the process.

[XWrench3]

i sure hope the individule who shot that noticed how horribly dangerous it was. i also hope he was not seriously hurt. i have had a mishap myself once. i knew something bad had happened imidiatly. i was very fortunate that 1) i was using sr-4759, and 2) it was in a remington 700. if this had happened in a lower quality gun, or i was using a different powder, things could have gotten very ugly very fast. the worse thing that happened is it cost me a little money to have a gunsmith check things out, and i lost a cartridge case. it took me a few days of investigation to find out exactly where i went wrong. i was tired when i loaded, and what happened was the page must have flipped, and i loaded the wrong amount of powder. it just so happened that the pages for those two loads were in almost the exact same location on the two pages. not a very expensive lesson, but one that woke me up just the same. i am just happy that i didnt get hurt, and the rifle was ok. i usually shoot alone out in the woods, so others getting hurt is not something that can easily happen, laying there until someone else comes along is the biggest drawback.

[sagacious]

Thin rim-- definitely. Overload-- no evidence of that at all.

The stamped lettering is shallow because the rim is thin, and not because of an overload.

A thin rim will flatten that primer F-L-A-T. A mild load will flatten that primer like a pancake, it does not take a heavy load. Anyone can easily verify (replicate) this by testing themselves. Even pipsqueak loads will flatten that primer if there's too much headspace in a revolver (and sometimes semi-auto) cartridge. In fact, FLAT primers are common in some pipsqueak loads if there's any excess headsapce-- the primer backs out, and expands, and as the case is eventually shoved back by rising pressure, the primer gets hammered FLAT. That's exactly what happened to the cartridge in the photos above. There's more to flat primers than just a lotta pressure.

A flattened primer alone is not an indication of excessive pressure. In this instance, all following conclusions predicate on the flattened primer, but this is incorrect reasoning. If the case had a normal primer in it, folks would doubless say, "Hey that case has a thin rim" and there would be no mention of overloads.

It is a very interesting case, though. Thanks for posting.

[Down South]

Bad case, just trash it. I've got a factory 38 special laying around somewhere new out of the box that wasn't made correctly and will not even chamber completly. I think it's RP but may be WW. I don't remember. I did take a marker to it so I won't get it mixed up with good rounds. I hang on to it for an example not to trust factory ammo. For SD ammo, make sure every round that you carry will chamber.

[HeavyMetal]

The easiest way to figure out if this was a real hot load is to try and size it!

No matter what it looks like from the outside if this was as hot as some think this case will require some real muscle to resize if it fits in the die.

Now if it slips in and out with little to no stress on the part of the operator then we got a faulty case rim and the subsiquient primer distortion.

Which is one more reason I do not trust primers as a source of pressure indicators!

So put that puppy in a carbide sizing die and report back how hard, or not, it was to size.

For the record I'm going with the faulty case theory, cause I figure if one case was like that others exist. No gun is going to stand up to that kind of punishment without breaking in a big way!

Since you only found the one case I think it was "chucked" after it misbehaved!

Let us know what you find out.

[dale2242]

I have seen several factory loaded cases with primers flattened like that. I will check the rim thickness the next time I run onto one.. I just thought they were heavy loads for that particular gun....dale

[WallyM3]

I don't think that there's any question that the case left the factory with a thin rim, unless someone is a genius at removing 0.030" of CA260 without leaving any evidence of the operation. And setting aside the absence of displacement flow, the pressure necessary to flatten over half the thickness would probably burst a strong bolt action rifle (just guessing, of course).

There is a remarkable lack of the usual reciprocal tooling marks that you generally see on the head of a "hot" case.

But I'm wondering if the shooter would have noticed anything unusual in the recoil/sound of firing the round.

[LEADHOPPER]

Being a WW case, the pressure was out of sight, you will not have bad brass from them.

Not true, I purchased a bag of .243 Winchester brass and had 3 or 4 of the cases in the bag had crimps in the necks of the case. And I know for a fact that it was brand new brass. I sent Winchester an Email and they sent me return shipping for the cases and replaced them.

[44man]

You could all be correct that it came with a thin rim. Looking at it again, there is too much of the head stamp.
I confess to never buying WW brass since I had a gun that only WW made cases for. Some rims were too thick to chamber.

[WallyM3]

I noticed that, too. But I think it likely that the head stamp imprint is a "last" operation and that the thin rim resulted in a faint impression.

[phaessler]

I would go for a thin rim, changing the headspace, if the 0.030" is consistent never rule out someone turning them, but how deep are the letters? Measure the case and try to cross reference ity to a wildcat maybe?
Primer is flat, but if the rim thickness was changed, upon firing I think that the case moving back would flatten it anyway.
Just my opinion..
Pete

[bgokk]

I'm riding the thin rim wagon. In my time as a PD firearms instructor and dept. gunsmith I have seen all sort of factory load mistakes. Bulged cases, nicks in the case mouth, and rims to thick to chamber etc.

AZ-Stew describes the process very well.
""Thin rim, improper head space.

When the firing pin hit the primer, it pushed the case into the chamber until the rim hit the bottom of the recess, or the rear face of the cylinder for a non-recessed chamber. At that point, there was, according to your measurements, .030 empty space (excessive head space) between the case head and the recoil shield. Once the case stopped moving forward, the firing pin dented the primer base and detonated the priming charge. Pressure within the primer pocket pushed the primer back until it hit the recoil shield. As pressure built within the case from the burning powder, the protruding walls of the primer were slightly bulged. Finally, the case was forced rearward until it hit the recoil shield, forcing the primer back into the pocket and forcing the bulged primer walls to fill the chamfer around the primer pocket, making it look severely flattened. This is why it looks like a gross overload.

Regards,

Stew""

BG

[MtGun44]

I agree with Stew, good explanation for the newbie.

All these things happen every time you shoot, just not to that severe an
extent!

With normal headspace there is not enough unsupported primer wall to expand
significantly and it takes a WHOLE LOT of extra pressure to make a primer look
that flat when the headspace is normal.

That said, I have had a few loads that looked like that, and I stopped and backed
off. IMO an OK looking primer doesn't prove much but a REALLY flat primer is a
definite danger sign.

Bill

[jsizemore]

Did you find anymore with the same headstamp and flattened primer?

[44man]

I never, ever buy factory loads except .22's and haven't for over 50 years. Judging from how bad the .22's are today I guess you could expect anything.

[Shiloh]

Nice pic's.

At the very least it is case study in what high pressure looks like as a cause of flattened primers.

SHiloh

[HarryT]

I don't think that case is from a handloader. How many of us leave our brass on the ground?

[oldtoolsniper]

The reason Marines are trained to drop when they throw a hand grenade, is because the guy cutting the fuse in the factory, won't be the guy throwing the grenade.

I personally run all of my reloads through a case gauge. It lets me know that the ammunition will chamber properly, and it falls within specifications. if I realize it doesn't tell me if it's a hot load or not, but it does force me to check each and every round visually. The case gauge is pretty cheap insurance.

[Char-Gar]

I am not going to offer up a theory or make a choice of the ones already on the table. I just want to agree with Grey Wolf, that idiots and fools should be told they are acting like idiots and fools. Yes, it may not make you any friends, but on rare occasions folks can learn from their mistakes if pointed out. Even though the original actors may not profit from the rebuke, others watching from the sidelines may. We don't do anybody a favor by acting like foolishnes is just another alternative approach to handloading.

[jsizemore]

A couple more thoughts. If the rim had been thinned from shooting then the primer pocket should have been reduced in depth the same amount.

If the case rim was .030 thinner then the rest, then the bullet was seated .030 LONGER then the rest. When the hammer hit the primer and shoved the round farther into the chamber, it could have jammed the bullet in the throat. Another possible explanation for excessive pressure.

[lwknight]

Another possible explanation for excessive pressure.

Why do people presuming that there was excessive pressure?
No one knows what primer was in the case in the first place. We could get really soft easy pop primers years ago and that flatted primer look was totally normal.

The firing pin dent was not kicked back out like a real bona-fide high pressure loads would do.

[44man]

I keep going back looking at the picture and if the pressure was high enough to thin the rim, it should have expanded the diameter of the rim and I see no indication of that. It is hard to measure by a picture.
It should have removed the head stamp too. Rim brass will not flow into the case body.
I responded too fast without thinking enough because I looked at the primer too much. I have seen primers like that when the gun and weather got hot using 4227 in the .44.
I have to agree that the case was made that way.
Makes me feel stupid but it is why this site is so good, a lot of smart fellas with real answers.
How in the world can a case be formed that way, loaded, packaged, get past inspection and sold?? Scary, isn't it?

[HeavyMetal]

44man:

The simple answer as to how this case got out of the factory: Murphy's Law.

The truth of the matter is no inspection system is 100% fool proof and some "duds" do get past the system.


Back in the day when I shot IPSC a big time winner named Ray Chapman had a collection of factory rounds, "duds", and each one cost him a match.

As I recall it was more than a dozen rounds and covered everything from no powder to no flashhole in the case!

He luged a Dillon everywhere and loaded his own every evening before a match.

[fourarmed]

It's not a gross overload if the primer is still there.

[mdi]

So, if the case was found on the ground, it prolly wasn't fired by a reloader (you know how we scrounge brass!). Without more info, I too would go with the "thin rim/bad headspace" theory...

[Elkins45]

Did you try to chamber it in a gun? As someone else already said, if it were an overload then it would be a real bear to resize---so undoubtedly it was hard to eject after firing. Will it fit in a normally sized chamber?

[sagacious]

...
How in the world can a case be formed that way, loaded, packaged, get past inspection and sold?? Scary, isn't it?
It does make ya wonder!

I once traded some unneeded brass to a dealer friend for a dozen boxes of factory Winchester 454 ammo. In one box was a defective cartridge that somehow made it past inspection. The brass had a fold/crack that spiralled around most of the length of the case body and continued into the case head almost to the primer. The crack/fold had was ironed into the case during the draw/extrusion process, and not made afterward-- it looked like a deep fold smoothly pressed into the case. Since the crack/fold continued into the casehead, and considering the fairly high operating pressure of those rounds, the potential for casehead gas leakage appeared very high, as opposed to a simple case-body crack. It looked like one of those twist/pop cans of dough, and the brass looked like it would have unzipped similarly upon firing. Of course, I did not fire it. I saved it for a while and eventually discarded the round. It was the most egregious factory ammo defect I have seen.

[Bob Krack]

I would certainly think that defective case is the case here. Should the pressures have been enough to reduce the thickness of the rim, the primer would have cratered and expanded enough to have fallen out of the case.

I've studied fired cases for over 35 years and in my experience, primer cratering or rupturing has always preceded any kind of base deformation.

Bob

[qajaq59]

How in the world can a case be formed that way, loaded, packaged, get past inspection and sold?? Scary, isn't it? When I did commercial radio I once was shipped a $3000 radio with every capacitor in it lying on the bottom of the case. They had never run it thru the flow solder. If anyone thinks commercially made ammo is perfect they are in for a shock.

[crashawk]

I know that this thread is old but I just had to wonder how many times they had to pull the trigger on that one to get it to fire? I've encountered a couple of cases like that that wouldn't go off, the extra head space didn't allow the firing pin to dent the primer enough to fire. a second hit ussually gets them going but I throw them out now instead of trying again. I just don't think it's worth it.
jason

[azcruiser]

my guess fired in a contender some guy load them pretty hot and don't pick up the brass

[starreloader]

No guess here.. That is a FACTORY DEFECT... I handle volumes of fired brass from police departments and other sources and I have seen this many times... I've found overly thick rims as well as extremely thin rims on every makers brand of brass over the years... Yesterday I found a 45 ACP case that the rim is an easy 3 times the thickness of a normal case head..

[Baryngyl]

Being a WW case, the pressure was out of sight, you will not have bad brass from them. [smilie=l:

Not sure how you can say a manufacturer can not possibly make a mistake like that.
Here is a 44 mag case I got out of a brand new factory sealed bag of 50.
http://www.money-web.com/forumpics/44winmagdefect1.jpg


Michael Grace

[Texasflyboy]

No guess here.. That is a FACTORY DEFECT... I handle volumes of fired brass from police departments and other sources and I have seen this many times...

When I lived in Texas, there was a display at the local police academy shooting range which was put out by of all people, the Secret Service.

It consisted of a ammunition board showing brand new defective cartridges taken from new factory ammo. The point of the message was to inspect your carry ammo carefully.

It was amazing the number of weird combinations one would see as "factory".

The most surprising was the sheer number of missing or backwards primers followed closely by wrong projectile in the case (say a 158 grain instead of a 110 grain for .357 mag).

Wish I had taken a photo of that board before I moved....

[243winxb]

The orginal photo looks like brass fired many many times. The rim can flow outward after many firings and get thinner. When the diameter of 45acp rims has gotten to large to slide up the bolt face freely, i have turned the rims down to the correct diameter. This 44 mag. case if fired in a T/C Contender would not have a headspace problem if the bullet was seated into the rifling, i would guess??:Fire::Fire:

[azcruiser]

Factory sealed BAG of 50 / What factory is that sounds like a one of those guys who's started his own AMMO Business and hasn't got it right yet .Hope he had a his name on bag . Bet he's/she a fast loader

[Mavrick]

FWIW, and 'cause I gotta stick my .02 in here....It was more 'n like a factory load that someone shot in a...le's see now, what's not been brought up? I know...How about one of those little carbines. Maybe a Rossi or Winchester was used...It could have headspaced on the bullet, locked tight, been safe, then thrown out on the ground, as MOST shooters are not reloaders.
I've seen some of those rare .45 Autos with an extremely thick rim. Yup...about three times the thickness of a regular case.... .45 Auto Rim. There are quite a few weird cases out there, especially if you haven't had the opportunity to be around them.
The shallow headstamp is quite common...I have a LOT of them...NIB! Most of mine are from Winchester, but I have them in Remington, too.
In case there is doubt, I am one of those that believes that the pressure was NOT high.
Have fun,
Gene

[mroliver77]

I wanted to shoot a friends 44 blackhawk and he said ammo was too expensive to shoot it up playing. I offered to load a couple hundred. He would not go for it. I offered for him to be present and help load. He said he would only shoot factory as then he knew what was in it. I asked him what powder and how much were in his rounds. "I dunno" he replied. I asked what bullet, what oal. "I dunno" he stated again. I asked what he did know. "I know their right" he said. Oooooooo K!! A nice old three screw SBH that never gets fired. :(
Jay

[PAT303]

If the rim was very thin wouldn't the firing pin push the cartridge forward when it fired causing excessive headspace which would then cause the primer to back out?. Pat

[grubbylabs]

I shot some 44 mags that my bro in law made up and they dished the primmers, he said "gee they must me a little warm for your gun" my only thought was gee they must just be a little overloaded.

[Mavrick]

Pat303- Not necessarily, if the bullet is held strong enough to overcome the strike of the firingpin. Matter of fact, Gibbs used to recommend this as a way of fireforming his .30 cartridge. The bullet needs to be jammed into the rifling. A lot depends on the chamber.
Have fun,
Gene

[bhn22]

It's not a headspace issue- rimmed cases headspace on the front of the rim, not the back. The primer is flattened, but by itself, that means nothing. I have plenty of once-fired 44 mag brass, and the rims do vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, If I may ask, what is the thickness of the rim? If it helps, the cases I measured run fro .052 to .057, measured by calipers. Rims are tough to measure. The case looks fine to me.

[MilSurpFan]

It's not a headspace issue- rimmed cases headspace on the front of the rim, not the back. The primer is flattened, but by itself, that means nothing. I have plenty of once-fired 44 mag brass, and the rims do vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, If I may ask, what is the thickness of the rim? If it helps, the cases I measured run fro .052 to .057, measured by calipers. Rims are tough to measure. The case looks fine to me.

Rimmed or rimless, the important measurement is the difference between the cartridge and chamber. So... a thin rim IS a headspace problem on a rimmed case. Logically, if the space behind a rimmed cartridge were not significant, then why have anything behind it at all?

I've always felt that headspace discussions go wrong because the tools, terminology and specifications used in regular practice are confused with the actual thing we are trying to account for. The significant measurement here is how far the case head can move rearward under pressure before being stopped by some part of the firearm. So, for example, a rim that is say .030" thinner than specified will allow that much more rearward travel than intended by the specification (maximum chamber minus minimum cartridge).

The confusion set in here, as most people seem use the term"headspace" to only describe the measurement of the chamber against the "spec". Also, there is a lot of (false) significance attached to what part of the chamber stops forward movement (rim, shoulder, case mouth or even bullet ogive) as all that counts is one thing stops forward movement and another rearward. To really measure headspace, you have to check both chamber and cartridge against the specs to ensure the combination is within tolerances. The difference between to two being what you really want to know.

Thus, in this example, the "headspace" of the firearm that the pictured case came from may be just fine, but the cartridge being out of spec then made the effective headspace excessive. A very drastic example of this is when the guy a few benches away from me fired a 7mm-08 in a 280 chambered rifle. Individually, both rifle and cartridge had perfectly acceptable "headspace' but the combination surely did not.

[Freischütz]

I once found an interesting overload on the range.

I was shooting a 30/06 with cast bullets. I finished and started checking the ground for any usable '06 brass. To my surprise I found a round loaded with a cast bullet.

I wasn't going to shoot it but I was interested in the workmanship. It looked good:
- bullet nicely filled out, no wrinkles or other casting flaws visible
- bullet appeared to be seated properly, no lead shavings around the case mouth
- case wasn't sticky from sizing lube
- no high primer

I took it home to see what load was used. First I found a small wad of TP. Then came the big surprise. The rest of the case was full of Red Dot, >29 gr.

The next day on the range I asked if anyone had blown up a rifle recently. None of the range personnel knew of anything. No one had complained about rifle problems either.

At the time I though it was a booby trap. However Red Dot seemed like an odd powder choice. It did reinforce the rule of never shooting anything one finds lying around.

[bhn22]

MilSurpFan- I understand what you're saying, but I feel your position makes it impossible for a revolver to function. As far as I know, the thickness of the rim is still undetermined. I do have plenty of Winchester brass that closely resembles the piece in question.

This thread sort of reminds me of the ancient Greek past time of debating about how many spirits can dance on the head of a pin.

[firefly1957]

I was picking brass out of trash can and found a box of .243 in the box were 2 fired shells with expanded primer pockets and 17 loaded rounds. I asked around and someone told me a guy had a .243 jam and he went home complaining of the reloads a friend gave him. I pulled the 17 bullets they were seated on ball powder so hard the powder left imprints in bullet bases and I had to tap cases to get powder out. I could not identify the powder for sure but the powders in my Hornady book (I just started reloading it was 1973) showed the load was about 10 grs. heavier than any of there top loads for a 85 gr bullet.
Friends like that we do not need !
I have intentionally over loaded one gun a Mauser 98 in rusted condition brought back from north Africa in WW1 it was chambered in a rimmed case and had .323 bore I was able to size a 7.62X 54 Russian case to fit the chamber drilled the Berdan Primer and place a 209 shotgun primer in the case which I then filled with Bullseye powder and topped with a .323 jacketed 190 gr bullet . Strapping the rifle to a tire which was C clamped to a steel bench from 200 yds away (the amount of 17 pound line my fishing reel held) I pulled the trigger and pulled I must have stretched the line well over ten feet before the trigger fired the gun. Surprisingly it was not really loud and the gun appeared to be in one piece except part of the forearm fell off.
The gun action gave I never found the piece above the bolt where the Egyptian crest had been and the top wood forearm piece had split I was able to tap the bolt open and the case was expanded with the primer loose in the hole I had drilled for it I was surprised that the 209 shotgun primer was in good shape I thought it would be a weak point.
Lesson never shoot someone else's loads you find at the range and Mauser made a heck of a strong action.

[Cadillo]

When I lived in Texas, there was a display at the local police academy shooting range which was put out by of all people, the Secret Service.

It consisted of a ammunition board showing brand new defective cartridges taken from new factory ammo. The point of the message was to inspect your carry ammo carefully.

It was amazing the number of weird combinations one would see as "factory".

The most surprising was the sheer number of missing or backwards primers followed closely by wrong projectile in the case (say a 158 grain instead of a 110 grain for .357 mag).

Wish I had taken a photo of that board before I moved....

I once bought a box of Winchester .357 mag Silvertips. One cartridge in the box had the bullet seated backwards, point down.

[Big Boomer]

For a number of years I have kept a factory .223 (or more properly a 5.56) rifle round on the shelf in my reloading room. It was at one time a complete round ... almost. From a side view it looks fine ... full metal jacket bullet seated properly. The extractor rim has a slight section "set back" that matches the manual extractor. The base of the cartridge reads CJ 93. Everything looks perfectly normal except that the primer is missing. And there is no flash hole.

My son was in the military and he brought this round home with him. He never told me whether he attempted to fire it and it failed or someone else did.

At best, we will run into defective factory ammo from time to time. It is bound to happen with the multiplied millions cranked out by the ammo factories. 'Tuck

[HangFireW8]

I wanted to shoot a friends 44 blackhawk and he said ammo was too expensive to shoot it up playing. I offered to load a couple hundred. He would not go for it.


The first statement he made, too expensive to shoot, says it all. He obviously values having the gun far, far more than using it.

Strange to you and me, I know, but I've run into it before. I don't knock it, it is the reason we inherit nearly-new guns or find them in pawn shops or estate sales.

-HF