pulled boolits and taper crimp

[jsizemore]

I've read a few posts saying to pull a boolit and check it's diameter to confirm it's fit in the gun of choice. So this question has to do with taper crimped cases.

Is the base of the boolit the same size when it's pulled as when it's fired?

I don't see how but maybe somebody can explain it to me. I'm always ready to learn.

[pdawg_shooter]

The taper crimp affects only the top 1/32" or so of the case, same as a roll crimp.

[44man]

Crimp effect on pulled or fired boolits is only bad on soft boolits that will not open the crimp right at the start.

[jsizemore]

The taper crimp affects only the top 1/32" or so of the case, same as a roll crimp.

So when a boolit base is pulled over that final crimped 1/32" at the mouth, does it size it smaller? Or is it the same size as a fired boolit? Doesn't the case mouth get expanded so it doesn't size the boolit base smaller when it's fired?

[jsizemore]

Crimp effect on pulled or fired boolits is only bad on soft boolits that will not open the crimp right at the start.

I think I see what you mean. Pressure can't be applied to the case wall until the boolit base is adjacent to it. Doesn't the pressure bump up the boolit base to fill the gap created by the case neck being blown out to chamber dimension?

[leftiye]

Apparently not. Accuracy would not be in our language if the boolit bumped up in the case. We'd probly blow up the gun every other shot too. It is a good question though, especially as applies to black powder which should obturate boolits upon detonation. There needs to be resistance - as in the boolit being forced to engrave in the rifling before much squishing the length down and the diameter up can happen. Though extreme pressure can do it simply against the boolit's own inertia. Good reason to avoid hot loads using fast powders. Don't forget that the gasses probly surround the boolit in the case neck as the case is expanded.

What is important in 44 man's reply is that a heavy crimp can size down the boolit as the boolit is pushed through the crimp - especially if the lead is soft (not so much as lead used gets harder). The boolit isn't hard enough to expand the crimp. When your fired brass still has a lot of crimp in it - pay attention!

[Bret4207]

Lets move beyond a simple "if the lead isn't hard enough". The state of your brass affects it too. Freshly annealed brass will have a different quality to it than something not annealed and shot 6 or 8 times. A case neck in a tight throat will open differently than one in a loose throat, brass that's a little long can open differently and the pressure curve of the load can affect it to a degree too.

If the answer simply lays in "harder lead" than why bother shooting cast at all?

[44man]

Pulling a boolit to see if the brass sized it down because it was too soft should be done without a crimp.
You can do a lot more with single shots and pistols then you can with a revolver. The revolver NEEDS case tension and fooling with dead soft lead will just open a room in the local nut house.
You dare not anneal brass for the revolver unless you shoot those cat sneeze things.
I still pick up brass at my range that still has a crimp on it because brass is harder then lead and the boolit has not removed the crimp but has been scraped through it.
Put pure swaged boolits in a .38, crimp hard and you have made an extrusion die.
Too many will say to change the brass, expander, etc to allow soft to be used and I ask why do you have to shoot soft to start with???? If you like soft expanding bullets, put a jacket around it. If you shoot paper and want accuracy, make the boolit HARD.

[MtGun44]

I wonder how my 8-14 bhn 429421s with a nice roll crimp manage to shoot
into 2"" or better at 50yds??

Bill

[geargnasher]

I wonder how my 8-14 bhn 429421s with a nice roll crimp manage to shoot
into 2"" or better at 50yds??

Bill

Cuz the gun is dimensioned correctly and the guy building the ammunition knows how to make it fit that gun.

Gear

[geargnasher]

One more thing, before somebody else says it, you could probably get those 429421s into an inch at 50 if you water-dropped those wheel weights for about bhn 22, and into a ragged hole if you used a WFN instead of a Keith semi-wadcutter :kidding:

Seriously, though, strictly speaking of revolver accuracy, I've beat the pants off of the old EK load of 2400 under his own boolit made from 16:1 by using 296 and much harder, wdww in the same gun, same brass, dies, lube, and primer.

Gear

[leadman]

I experimented with various crimps on bullets of various hardness. It is easy to size down even an 18BHN boolit with a hard roll crimp.
A taper crimp if applied for maximum crimp can easily size down 1/4" to 3/8" of the boolit depending on caliber. To do this though one really would have to ignore the extra effort on the press handle.

Air cooled wheel weight can be sized down with almost no indication in the press handle. One reason I seldom use it except for my 43 Mauser ad my 40-65.

I had bought some mil surp Turkish 8X57. Some of the case mouths were cracked so I pulled the ammo apart. The jacketed bullets had a severley reduced area where the cases had been crimped.

[jsizemore]

Apparently not. Accuracy would not be in our language if the boolit bumped up in the case. We'd probly blow up the gun every other shot too. It is a good question though, especially as applies to black powder which should obturate boolits upon detonation. There needs to be resistance - as in the boolit being forced to engrave in the rifling before much squishing the length down and the diameter up can happen. Though extreme pressure can do it simply against the boolit's own inertia. Good reason to avoid hot loads using fast powders. Don't forget that the gasses probly surround the boolit in the case neck as the case is expanded.

What is important in 44 man's reply is that a heavy crimp can size down the boolit as the boolit is pushed through the crimp - especially if the lead is soft (not so much as lead used gets harder). The boolit isn't hard enough to expand the crimp. When your fired brass still has a lot of crimp in it - pay attention!

Why wouldn't it bump up in the case? If the case expands to the limit of the chamber, what's to stop it from happening? My 45acp only has to move .010" before the leade is engaged. The total length of the driving bands are .317" long. So that's 3/10" of boolit's base that has to move from the case to the barrel. What's so special about the case that a boolit, or bullet for that matter, can't obturate to fill the gap?

[243winxb]

Why wouldn't it(bullet) bump up in the case?If the PSI is to high for the BHN of the bullet, the bullet will deform. See Lee's maximum pressure chart here. http://www.photobucket.com/joe1944usa

[MtGun44]

Nope. Tried water dropped and they shot the same or worse. I try to learn
from Mr. Target, he never steers me wrong.

I am willing to try any of the recommended techniques to improve my ammo.
I have a fully open mind and am absolutely CERTAIN that I do not know all about
anything, let alone cast boolits. But I do know what has and has not worked
for me.

I have tried water dropped repeatedly and can find no benefit in .357 Mag,
.44 mag or .45 LC in about a dozen guns. For me, I'm done worrying about it and
am happy with ~1" at 25 yds with multiple .357 mag loads & guns, ~2" at 50 yds with one or
two .44 mag loads and about 1.5" with my BH in .45 LC. Still fiddling with .45LC,
it seems to take a bit more time and I have been too busy at work and on business
travel lately. Only two .45 LC revos at this point, so limited experience there.

Multiple designs, multiple different molds, multiple different guns, multiple different
calibers all the way up to full max load magnums in Ruger and S&W mostly and have
not found any repeatable benefit to water dropping. I do not say that it won't work
for you, just that is has not worked for me. AC wwts seems to be adequate, but even
when I tried 8 BHN range lead, the loads worked the same.

I have a few pistols that haven't done as well as others, may be worth trying water
dropped in them some day, might work better in those particular guns. I would not
claim to have done exhaustive testing, but have tried it repeatedly and so far can't
locate the benefit.

Bill

[44man]

Why wouldn't it bump up in the case? If the case expands to the limit of the chamber, what's to stop it from happening? My 45acp only has to move .010" before the leade is engaged. The total length of the driving bands are .317" long. So that's 3/10" of boolit's base that has to move from the case to the barrel. What's so special about the case that a boolit, or bullet for that matter, can't obturate to fill the gap?
The crimp is not pushed to the chamber wall by pressure, only the boolit will unfold it. Brass does not expand all at once either, pressure only works on it behind the boolit.

[44man]

Nope. Tried water dropped and they shot worse. I am willing to try any of the
recommended techniques to improve my ammo. I have a fully open mind and
am absolutely CERTAIN that I do not know all about anything, let alone cast boolits.

However, I have tried water dropped repeatedly and can find no benefit in .357 Mag,
.44 mag or .45 LC in about a dozen guns. For me, I'm done worrying about it and
am happy with 1" at 25 yds with multiple .357 mag load, 2" at 50 yds with one or
two .44 mag loads and about 1.5" with my BH in .45 LC. Still fiddling with .45LC,
it seems to take a bit more time and I have been too busy at work and on business
travel lately.

Multiple designs, multiple different molds, multiple different guns, multiple different
calibers all the way up to full max load magnums in Ruger and S&W mostly and have
not found any repeatable benefit to water dropping. I do not say that it won't work
for you, just that is has not worked for me. AC wwts seems to be adequate, but even
when I tried 8 BHN range lead, the loads worked the same.

Bill
Loading practices and dies used are what counts. If something is not right, no change in hardness will make things better or worse.

[243winxb]

I've read a few posts saying to pull a boolit and check it's diameter to confirm it's fit in the gun of choice. So this question has to do with taper crimped cases.

Is the base of the boolit the same size when it's pulled as when it's fired? yes

I don't see how but maybe somebody can explain it to me. I'm always ready to learn.
The Lee factory crimp die for pistols may size the bullet in a loaded round, if the bullet is oversize, brass to thick.The use of this Lee die could result in an undersized bullet. The standard taper crimper only touches the front of the bullet. Here a proper crimp is needed. Neck tension, that holds the bullet is most important. You will find the expander diameter, when measured, is as little as .0015" under bullet diameter, to as much as .004" for hard recoiling handguns.Always use an expander, Lee Universal Expander Die- This only flares the mouth, it does not open the inside diameter of the case. When you seat your bullet, the bullet becomes the expander. . As the bullet leaves the case, the crimp is moved out of the way and has no affect on the bullets diameter. IMO. A hot maximum load will smash the brass/crimp agains the chamber wall, the crimp will be totally gone. IMO.

[Bret4207]

Loading practices and dies used are what counts. If something is not right, no change in hardness will make things better or worse.

Quote- Too many will say to change the brass, expander, etc to allow soft to be used and I ask why do you have to shoot soft to start with???? If you like soft expanding bullets, put a jacket around it. If you shoot paper and want accuracy, make the boolit HARD.
44man

One theory or another, whatever works.