Got back from Dr's, now I'm bummed!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Went down to Mexico last week for some blood tests, figuring on I had Hypothroid problems, and today my tests come back everything normal except high levels of lead! Measured at 14.16, he says no casting or loading for one month, and to take some multivitamins, and see him in a month . . .

I just last night got a new mold from Mihec, haven't even warmed it up yet, and another one should be here in a few weeks also! And two new one last week one from Mihec, and the other from NOE.

Been told that there is some lead in the primer residue to so I can't even load jacketed . . . (I have a bunch left over from previous reloading . . . before I knew about casting my own)

But I think that I can maybe shoot some jacket I already have loaded up, I did not ask because I was not wanting to get a NO! Should be safe to shoot I'd think, and 22's that are not lead . . .:Fire:

I really was looking forward to casting and shooting those 359640's I just got, and the HG 68 clone in my new to me Colt Combat Commander . . . but, I'll try to be good, and wait, gonna chop my wife's barrel this afternoon, and I should have a checkmaker from PatMarlin any day now . . .

I'm thinking I may have to wear nitrile gloves when handling lead from now on . . .

[fishhawk]

also drinking milk will help remove lead from the body. steve k

[Artful]

Even drinking distilled water will help remove minerals

[fredj338]

Do you shoot a lot indoors? It's the single greatest exposure to lead short of eating it. There are lead styphenites in priming compounds. Grapefruit or grapefruit juices & supplements are natural chelatents. Good luck!

[Blammer]

do you wash your hands when done casting and stuff?

[bigboredad]

eat a half of cup of cilantro everyday. I have a friend that is really it the natural way of things and he tells me cilantro is great for removing heavy metals from our blood. Its cheap and you can eat it straight if you can handle that I could not. Good luck

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I have never shot inside, hopefully I never do, and if so it will only be one shot!

I did not always wash my hand right after handling lead or cleaning primer pockets, but always before eating . . .

Thanks for the other idea's . . . I like grapefruit!

[XWrench3]

well, that sucks! :holysheep for a while, if i were you, i would be very carefull about how i did things. maybe wear vinyl or latex gloves when handling cases. especially bringing them out of the tumbler, and scraping primer pockets. wear a GOOD mask when smelting or casting. or AT LEAST have a good fan sucking the fumes away from you. also, take a shower after every time. like others have said, a lot of times, you ingest it. usually by really not thinking about it. the lead will get on your skin, hands, mouth etc. for me, my beard. then, you take a bite of a sandwich, or drink something, and you ingest the lead. if nothing else, this will certainly make you more aware of the many, many ways to ingest lead. [smilie=b: hopefully, this will go away in a month or two, and you will be fine.

[waksupi]

Try getting tested in the states, and see what the results are.

[HeavyMetal]

How are you handling your brass during Cleaning?

If your not wearing a mask and your sorting brass or even taking it out of the tumbler your exposing yourself to about 5 times the amount if lead you'd see shooting or loading!

Big reason you may have tested high.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I always cast/smelt outside, I try not to stand over the pot.

Waksupi, curious on why you say that, have you seen different results from a lab on different sides of the border? Or just different labs?

I only tumble my brass every third time or so, and I do not wear a mask, after tumbling I usually size / de-prime, then clean the primer pockets, as I also usually only clean the primer pockets ever third time also.

So your saying I'm gonna need to take a shower at-least once a week? !! :mrgreen: (my wife should like that!)

I just remembered . . . (one of the symptoms of lead poisoning is failed memory) I can shoot my AK47, as I have not started loading for that, even though I have a mold from NOE, and cast a few last weekend, but waiting on my checkmaker . . . but I got lots and lots of fmj surplus ammo waiting for a rainy day . . .

[runfiverun]

federal primers use aluminum spagnate.
win uses lead styphnate.
one more way to cut down.
and dillon sells a soap called d-lead to wash up with after handling or casting.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Interesting runfiverun . . . I usually use Remingtons (sp), have some Federals, but have not opened them up yet . . . use Winchester LP for my 44 which I just started loading them a few months ago, and I have CCI LR for when I hope to soon load for my 270 . . .

[Recluse]

Several things:

--I went through this about a year and a half or longer ago. "14" is not a real high number. Mine was double that plus a few. But "14" is probably an indicator that you need to change a few things in regards to your reloading.

--My doctor told me that the reloading and shooting indoors was a bigger contributor to high lead levels than casting. Her and her husband are big-time shooters and reloaders (yep, I've got a GREAT doc!).

So what I did was continued to cast, but did zero reloading and zero shooting for six weeks. Damn near killed me. During that time I doubled my vitamin-C (in vitamin form) intake, doubled my water intake (we have a distiller we use for our drinking water), and washed my hands religiously after every casting/sizing/lubing session.

--Six weeks later, I went back to have my levels re-tested and they'd fallen from nearly 30 to below 12. Doc wasn't all that surprised when I told her I continued casting and smelting with the same frequency I always have.

I'm convinced that as Fred says, indoor shooting was my biggest culprit. Second biggest culprit was my brass-sorting and tumbling. I have a Thumler's Tumbler, so no dust to fly around the shop while tumbling. However, you gotta pour out the brass and media at some point. . . I now keep a little mask handy for that. I also put a sink in my workshop for the sole purpose of being able to wash my hands immediately after reloading, brass sorting, tumbling and casting.

Not a big deal--easy to get your numbers down.

:coffee:

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Reculse, I also have a Thumlers tumbler 10 . . .

I put in a whole house water treatment system, so our water is nor distilled but filtered, I drink from 1.5 - 2 gallons per day . . . keeps my bladder cleaned out!

I told the doctor that a few of my complaints could be related to the lead, but I have only been casting for less than a year, and just before that I re-started re-loading at about the same time, I had taken a 15+ year sabbatical!

I promised the Doctor that I would not cast any until I see him again, so I'm a man who says what I mean, and mean what I say.

The Mayo Clinic says:
Symptoms in adults
Although children are primarily at risk, lead poisoning is also dangerous for adults. Even exposure to amounts of lead too low to cause symptoms in the short term may increase the risk of high blood pressure and mental decline in the future. Symptoms in adults may include:

Pain, numbness or tingling of the extremities
Muscular weakness
Headache (mines always fuzzy now, at times turns into a regular headache)
Abdominal pain
Memory loss
Mood disorders
Reduced sperm count, abnormal sperm
Miscarriage or premature birth in pregnant women
Fatigue

I have the ones in bold . . .

[mooman76]

You can absorb things through your skin. You handle lead and then touch other parts of your body. Make sure you wash after you handle lead. I cast in my garage with little ventilation and don't have a problem. You don't really get it from breathing while casting anyway. I was kind of thinking that around 15/16 wasn't real high but getting there. If I remember right up around 32 was concidered high but I could have remembered wrong.

[waksupi]

Waksupi, curious on why you say that, have you seen different results from a lab on different sides of the border? Or just different labs?
. . .

Yes, different lab results. Never trust one if it has bad news, always double check them.

[fredj338]

Try getting tested in the states, and see what the results are.

Good point! SOme people are just more succeptable. My dad smoked 2 paks a day for his entire adult life, lived to be 85 w/ no ill afects. Foods rich in Vit C, good fiber foods like nuts. Also an amino acid supplement called EDTA has been used as a natural chelation for removing heavy metals like lead & lmercury. DO a google search. Agian, good luck. The levels are not that high you can't get them down w/ a diet change.
A thought, are your water pipes older, maybe lead solder joints?

[Dannix]

federal primers use aluminum spagnate.
Interesting. I never knew this. I read it was wise to avoid Federal primers for tube mags, but never knew a different primer compound was part of the 'why' behind it. Is "spagnate" the correct spelling? Maybe it's a proper noun, but I'm not finding any info on "spagnate" compounds.


123.DieselBenz -- got point about the tumbler. I went the Thumbler route myself, but I never really considered dumping the brass as that hazardous. I'm making a mental note to do that outside from here on out.

[exile]

I always wear a mask when depriming or tumbling brass. I heard somewhere that a couple of tablespoons of water added to the walnut hull media will cut down on lead exposure. I've got so many health problems, I wish lead exposure were the problem. Sounds like something easily fixed. Fortunately, I have not had to shoot indoors in the last 20 years. I should be thankful for that. I never enjoyed it that much anyway.

exile

[NSP64]

Try getting tested in the states, and see what the results are.

I don't blame him for going to Mexico. GF is a nurse at a hospital and had her labs done. $500.00 was our part and we have health insurance!!!!

[qajaq59]

Many of us think we are getting the lead from casting and shooting. But that is not always the case. Much of the material coming from China and some of the other countries has lead on it and a coffee cup or plate can also get you in trouble. Check around the house for items that may contain lead and you may find that it isn't your casting that's doing it. And I'd also have another blood test in the states as Waksupi suggested.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

123.DieselBenz, I'm glad you started this thread. I have been getting lazy with handling lead. Thanks for the reminder.

[leadman]

I had a lead level slightly over 12 from making shot mostly. I noticed symptons like you mention plus my blood pressure went way up.
I made some changes in my shotmaking and casting set-up and followed the diet published by the State of Minnesota. I'm back down to under 3.
Home depot here in Phx. sells a lead test kit, vials that are broken then the area swabbed. There is a color change if lead is present. This will help identify lead on the surfaces were you cast and reload.
The nitrile gloves are a good idea as this will prevent the lead from getting on your hands in the first place. I also hung a scrap piece of aluminum around my neck and did some shotmaiking and casting after I made my "casting closet". I then swabbed this to make sure there was no lead on it.
One needs to be aware of everything you are doing while working with lead. things like wiping your face with your shirt, etc. In Az. a drink is mandatory, but use a container with a covered drinking straw or removable lid and do not keep it in the immediate area of your work. If the lid needs to be handled do so with a clean paper towel. You get the idea.
Good luck on getting your lead down.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Thanks everyone, lots of good advise here!

A little more info . . .

The trigger level for lead poisoning is 10, they prefer less than 5! then there is 11-19 which is moderate, and over 20 is very bad . . .

We buy very little stuff from China . . . I look on every package . . . even if it cost more, I'd rather buy American, We DO NOT shop at Wally world or places like that.

My townhouse was built in 1979, by a developer so no lead in the paint I know of, so I assume that 1978 also was the cutoff point for lead soldering pipes?

We go to Mexico for a few reasons:
1. Much cheaper
2. Quick service
3. Treat us like real people

Last week we went down for a physical, for both myself and my wife I brought a sheet of paper with my complaints, the family Dr spent 1 hr with me, spent another hr on my wife, he then took us over (actually walked across the street to hospital with us) to get two x-rays, he wasn't happy with the x-rays, so he told us he thought we should see a specialist, so I say OK when? and he calls, and says it will be about half an hour wait, we see the specialist for about 45 min and he does an ultra sound, still is not happy, and prescribes a colon cleanse medication to reduce the colon so he can see past it to the gallbladder . . . the family Dr spent the whole time with us . . . all the above cost a total of $136 UD dollars!

My blood tests, along with a urine test cost a total of $180 US

Yesterday when we went, the family Dr took us into see the specialist, where he did another ultrasound, 30 min later we were on our way for another x-ray which cost $26 US (The specialist charged $45 US including the Ultrasound) The family Dr then sat down with us, and talked with us about both of our problems, a total of over 2 hours, and refused any payment, said it was "followup" from last week . . .

Hard to find a Dr in USA to say take a few multivitamins and come back in one month, or to my wife, lay off the fatty foods, eat smaller meals more often, with more fruit & veggies!

My blood pressure was 100 over 65, my total cholesterol is 160.

Part of my memory problem is from an assault back in 1995 when I was knocked unconscious from a blow to the back of my head by some punko's with either a pipe or brass knuckles . . . but it has gotten a lot worse in the last 6 mo . . . I'm "only" 44 years old!

Good news is I got my wife's barrel chopped and re-crowned yesterday, now I'm trying to figure out the right thread pitch for the scope base screws I got from Weaver, my eyes are not so good now either (hard to focus on tiny things) . . . I know there size 6, but not positive there 48 pitch, I drilled a hole in some scrap steel and tapped it, seemed hard to thread in with my fingers, so I drilled another hole, and tapped it with 6/40, still not good . . . I'm gonna be going to the church soon to work on our local paper we print every month, and ask someone with better eyes to confirm.

[MtGun44]

"over 20 is very bad" -- hogwash.
Your above quoted numbers are wrong.

10 limit is only for children, not for adults.

The limit for someone in job working with lead is 40. 39 and if they know WHY
you have 39, nothing is done. 41 and you need to change something at your
work, usually stop eating and smoking with contaminated hands, wash hands
more often etc.

You are FINE. I have had middle 20s levels for last 30 yrs because I shoot indoors
about 4 times a month. Not a problem, have discussed this with experts in the
field. I know what to do and not and it does not increase, so it is not an issue.

Many docs do not know their butt from second base on this and have this "children's
limit" on the brain. If you have no known exposure to lead your lead level should
be down around 5, this is kinda reasonable. As long as you know that you are being
exposed to lead and understand how and why and have the lead levels staying
constant below 40 you are fine.

If you have young children in the house, keep them away as they are more sensitive
to adults. Something about building nerve cells and lead is harmful during this stage
of life. Not as big a deal for adults.

Do not just believe me. Do some personal research. I have heard this
manure before from people the got it from a Doc that probably just remembered "the
limit" from some lecture 15 yrs before and never has dealt with lead or
updated their limited knowledge.

You know what they call the person that graduates last in medical school?

Doctor. Or maybe Senor Doctor.

Bill

[cbrick]

Since you don't shoot indoors the single biggest source for lead contamination is your tumbler, not your lead pot. I put the lid on the tumbler before I start it and shut it off before I take the lid off. Like was mentioned, I also installed a sink in my loading room and wash my hands immediately after doing anything with the tumbler.

I handle lead indoors nearly every day (and have for many years) in one way or another, casting, loading, smelting (outdoors), brass prep etc. and a few weeks ago my blood lead test results came back in the low end of normal range. I don't wear a mask when casting though I do have good ventilation in the loading room. I don't wear gloves either except while casting or smelting and I don't run for the shower because I saw a piece of lead. Lead is not radioactive, it cannot jump out and get you and it does not absorb through the skin, you have to ingest it in some manor to get it into you.

A little common sense goes along way, treat your tumbler for what it is, a source of lead contamination, use good ventilation, don't eat, keep your fingers (and thumb) out of your mouth and nose until you wash your hands. And NO, that ingot is not a lolipop.

Yes, absolutely keep children far away from any source of lead. This from Glen Fryxell . . . As a Ph.D. chemist involved in the environmental chemistry of heavy metals and heavy metal toxicology, perhaps I can add a few helpful comments here. First off, you are right to be concerned about your children. Lead is considerably more dangerous to kids than it is to adults. A healthy 200 lb man can carry a lead burden (with no symptoms) that would cause severe mental retardation in a 5-year old. This is because one of the main effects that lead has is on the developmental biochemistry of the brain and spine. Once you've grown up, lead can't enter that particular pathway anymore. There are still other toxicity mechanisms to be concerned about, but the neurological development of children is easily the most serious.

For the entire article: Safe handling of lead alloys while casting and tumbling (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellSafeHandlingLead.htm)

Rick

[BD]

Wash your brass in water and dry it before tumbling and you will eliminate 99% of your exposure from tumbling. I put mine in a 5 gallon bucket with hot water and simple green for a 1/2 hour or so shaking it occasionally. Then I put it a bucket I drilled full of holes to rinse it. I dry it on a screen in the yard. Now I get very little airborne dust of any kind from the tumbler, and the area around the tumbler tests clean for lead. Makes the tumbling media last longer as well.

To me 14 is not a scary number. Mine was in the teens and 20's for much of my early life, and got over 40 one year from shooting indoors.

BD

[Recluse]

Pain, numbness or tingling of the extremities
Muscular weakness
Headache (mines always fuzzy now, at times turns into a regular headache)
Abdominal pain
Memory loss
Mood disorders
Reduced sperm count, abnormal sperm
Miscarriage or premature birth in pregnant women
Fatigue

I have the ones in bold . . .

Shawn, a factor of "14" is simply not high enough to cause all of the above that you have bolded. Especially as new as you are to casting plus having taken a decade-plus off from reloading.

Put another way, you're experiencing "major symptoms" but with a "minimal lead factor (number)."

I have no problem with being cognizant of our lead content, but I have huge problems with (so-called) medical professionals (the majority of which are huge anti-gunners) constantly giving their patients "the sky is falling" diagnosis.

Look how many people have headaches, fatigue, muscle pain and (occasional) memory loss that never get anywhere near a gun, boolits, tumblers or casting.

Today's medical profession has given us a whole boatload of "symptoms," so now they have to find the "problem." I remember when it used to be the other way around--the docs saw a problem, and then worked to find a cure.

Today, docs and the drug companies have more "cures" than there are "problems." Hence the infomercials and ads asking us, "Do you occasionally get tired? Well, if you answered 'yes,' then there is a high liklihood that you are suffering from Fatigue Underlying Chronic Kinesis Epidermal Depression. You should see your doctor immediately and ask for Underlying Problem-solving, the newest anti-depression medication that will have you back to your old self within just five short years."

"Side effects may include your penis falling off, your ears turning inside out, your hair changing color, eyeballs occasionally spinning, sudden heart stoppage, cancer of the entire intestinal system and your skin may be overly sensitive to flourescent lights, causing it to boil and bubble. But your depression will be under control."

Welcome to today's world.

:coffee:

[qajaq59]

"Side effects may include your penis falling off, your ears turning inside out, your hair changing color, eyeballs occasionally spinning, sudden heart stoppage, cancer of the entire intestinal system and your skin may be overly sensitive to flourescent lights, causing it to boil and bubble. But your depression will be under control." Recluse, you've been watching too many medication ads too. I'm usually rolling on the floor by the time they list all the side effects. LOL

[10 ga]

Besides the obvious sources... There is a lot of brass that is compounded and contains lead. I worked in the VA state health dept. env. section for 13 years and got all the "dogma" about lead. Been tested several times and never had any issues or even close. Have cast boolits and fishing gear and loaded ammo for 45 years. Best advice, considering his water system is: recheck the water system for lead pipes and lead solder etc..., check any pottery used in cooking and food storage - likely source of lead from the glaze, especially if from Mexico or China, wet the media and brass when tumbling ie. reduce dust from same, wear gloves--nitril-latex-rubber-etc. whenever handling newly polished brass or any lead boolits, lots of ventilation when loading or casting, always wear gloves when handling lead products... only time I handle lead w/o gloves is when loading the firearms and tying on the fishing gear... wash self, clothing and clean off the gear after a lead handling session. OH yeah! don't eat paint chips from old houses! His most likely source of the lead is from the polishing and handling the brass and polishing media. Oh yeah, if you mine backstops and berms for spent boolits wear gloves then too. my $.02, Best, 10 ga

[jsizemore]

Even though plastic pipe was being widely used in the 70's, many homeowners requested copper pipe be used because of freeze concerns and imperfections (small pinholes) that would leak years after installation (had that happen in my supply line in the ground to my house from 1992). Also code mandated that the inlet and outlet lines from a hot water heater had to be metal for 18-24". Some used threaded galvinized but most used soldered copper. And most oldtime plumbers believed in 50/50. Still know some that go to the roofing supply to buy bar solder for non-human consumption. A-hmm.

So, check the H/W heater and stop valves at your water supply lines to your sinks if your worried about the plumbing being the lead contamination source.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Bill,

THANK YOU!

I just got the numbers from the lab report after the Dr. showed/read me the report:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/leadtest.jpg

I did check and wikipedia only mentions children's numbers . . . the US CDC website at http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/ABLES/ables-description.html

Says briefly what you said "Health Effects: Elevated blood lead levels (BLL's) in adults can damage the nervous, hematologic, reproductive, renal, cardiovascular, and gastrointestinal systems. The majority of cases are workplace-related. U.S. Department of Health and Human Services recommends that BLLs among all adults be reduced to <25 µg/dL. The highest BLL acceptable by standards of the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration is 40 µg/dL. The geometric mean BLL of all adults in the United States is <3 µg/dL.
Program Description: ABLES is a state-based surveillance program of laboratory-reported adult blood lead levels. In 2009, the ABLES program updated its case definition for an Elevated Blood Lead Level for surveillance purposes as a blood lead concentration >= 10 µg/dl. The public health objective of the ABLES program is objective 20.7 in Healthy People 2010, which is to reduce the rate of adults(age 16 or older) who have blood lead levels of 25 micrograms per deciliter (µg/dL) or greater. The ABLES program aims to accomplish this objective by building state capacity to initiate or improve adult blood lead surveillance programs which can accurately measure trends in adult blood lead levels and which can effectively intervene to prevent lead over-exposures."

Yes we do have some, probably all copper pipes in our home, most is buried under the concrete slab . . . they used the flex/roll of 3/4" stuff . . . no freezing concerns here.

I do not watch TV or own one, but the Doctor really did not even know about lead poisoning, and had to look it up in his books . . . he said I was the first one who asked for lead testing . . .

I did go in with a long list of complaints . . . but somethings have been getting worse in the last few months . . . thought it wise to search all possible leads . . .

Yeah I mined backstops, and empty my boolit traps . . . pans are stainless (AllClad/copper made in USA) . . . drink out of glass (Libby made in Canada) eat of from Phaltzgraf (sp) ceramic made in USA, use SS silverware . . . I also told the Dr that I did not believe that this was the only thing wrong . . . as lead symptoms only cover a few of my problems . . .

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I hope you get to feeling better Shawn. Symptoms can be hard to pinpoint for what causes them.

[MtGun44]

Shawn,

I first studied this subject about 28 yrs ago when I had been shooting indoors for a couple
of years and a friend had a lead count of 65 which is actually bad. He had no symptoms,but
changed primarily his eating while reloading habit.

Glad you went and verified my info. Most Docs don't know squat about this since it is
a very obscure thing and they have tons of stuff to worry about. Continue to do your
research and you will definitely know more about it than most Docs.

Rest assured that whatever you might have it is NOT lead poisoning if the 14 micrograms
per decaliter (which is the standard units for this) of the report is accurate. Personally,
the 14.16 sounds a bit suspicious since I wonder if the test is this accurate (the .16 part
is what I mean). Might be that accurate, but I have never seen a report that wasn't
in whole numbers with nothing in the decimals.

The silly recommendations to use extra ventilation when casting and gloves when reloading
are overdone. Lead does not vaporize at casting temps to any significant degree. Will
it hurt to use good ventilation when casting? Of course not. But if you research the
partial pressure of lead at 800F it is something (from memory) in the 1/1000th of a millimeter
of mercury range where normal air pressure is 760 mm of mercury. To me the main
gain from ventilation is to get rid of odors of burning flux and such. By all means, you
should use ventilation, but there is extremely little lead vaporized in the air when casting.

The worry about lead dust from a tumbler may be useful. I use a bit of liquid
car wax in my tumbler and it keeps the dust down in addition to making the
process quicker and brass much nicer looking.

The biggest point is: Do not eat, drink or smoke around your lead casting or
reloading area - the mouth is the primary pathway for lead. Wash your hands when
you are done and you will be fine. I have been exposed to lead shooting indoors,
casting and reloading for almost 30 yrs and having my lead level checked periodically
for a bunch of years. I have typically been in the 20s, running 23 to 28 range. I
believe that most of this is from the range, not home.

Indoor ranges with poor ventialtion are a serious issue. Our range massively improved
their ventilation about 25 yrs ago and it has made a big difference. I assume that
the entire range is seriously lead contaminated and wash my hands at the range as
I leave, and again when I get home or to a restaurant where we gather after our Friday
night matches.

I will reiterate that the most important thing is keeping kids away from it. Again, nothing
heroic is required, but be sensible. Again, most lead in the body enters thru the mouth, altho
on an indoor range lead in the air from the lead styphinate in most primers is an issue.

Another point. Back when lead was used in gasoline everybody had a lot higher lead in the bloodstream
and it was OK. Now that most have no source of exposure, avg lead level is lower and Docs
freak out periodically, mostly because the don't know anything about it.

Bill

[82nd airborne]

a case of busch light and a log of copenhagen long cut should fix you right up.

[snuffy]

Besides the obvious sources... There is a lot of brass that is compounded and contains lead.Is that so! It's the first time I ever heard that brass has lead in it!
I worked in the VA state health dept. env. section for 13 years and got all the "dogma" about lead. Been tested several times and never had any issues or even close. Have cast boolits and fishing gear and loaded ammo for 45 years. Best advice, considering his water system is: recheck the water system for lead pipes and lead solder etc...,
Does water dissolve lead?

check any pottery used in cooking and food storage - likely source of lead from the glaze, especially if from Mexico or China, wet the media and brass when tumbling ie. reduce dust from same, wear gloves--nitril-latex-rubber-etc. whenever handling newly polished brass or any lead boolits, Again, as cbrick stated, lead is NOT absorbed through the skin. I guess if people keep repeating it, it will become fact,,,NOT!
lots of ventilation when loading or casting,I cast and load in a completely closed, small, bedroom. My lead levels are always under 10, the highest was 7.0
always wear gloves when handling lead products... only time I handle lead w/o gloves is when loading the firearms and tying on the fishing gear... wash self, clothing and clean off the gear after a lead handling session. OH yeah! don't eat paint chips from old houses! His most likely source of the lead is from the polishing and handling the brass and polishing media. Oh yeah, if you mine backstops and berms for spent boolits wear gloves then too. my $.02, Best, 10 ga

I've always been accused of having lead in my butt, but I can point to my lab results to prove I'm just lazy!:-D

[MtGun44]

Cartridge brass is 70-30 alloy of copper and zinc.

If you worked in VA health dept you probably know that some well water in central VA
(Spotsylvania and Orange Counties) will dissolve copper pipe! Possibly pick
up lead from the solder, too.

Bill

[The Double D]

Went down to Mexico last week for some blood tests, figuring on I had Hypothroid problems, and today my tests come back everything normal except high levels of lead! Measured at 14.16, he says no casting or loading for one month, and to take some multivitamins, and see him in a month . . .


I'm thinking I may have to wear nitrile gloves when handling lead from now on . . .

I would get a second opinion-a Norteno blood test.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I would get a second opinion-a Norteno blood test.

The only reference I can find about the word "Norteno" is gang related, not sure what you mean . . .

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

My main reason for wearing gloves would be to make sure not to actually get it on my hands, and if I'm wearing blue smurf gloves I would more than likely take them off before eating . . . I keep my drinking water in a different room . . . I will need to be more careful with the tumbler and primer removal.

I don't like alcohol or tobacco . . .

I'm planning on calling the Dr on Monday and tell him about the under 25 . . . and see about going down next Friday, and talk about the other things like Hypothyroid which does not always show up with blood tests, but has the following symptoms: (I have all of these, there are others I do not have)

Fatigue
Weakness
Weight gain or increased difficulty losing weight
Coarse, dry hair
Dry, rough pale skin
Hair loss
Cold intolerance (you can't tolerate cold temperatures like those around you)
Muscle cramps and frequent muscle aches, tenderness and stiffness
Irritability
Memory loss or having trouble thinking clearly.
Hoarse voice (at times)
Difficulty swallowing, sore throat.

He also mentioned fibromyalgia which have the following symptoms (I have the following, there are more I do not have):

Body aches
Fatigue
Memory difficulties and cognitive difficulties
Numbness and tingling
Reduced exercise tolerance
Sleep disturbances
Tension or migraine headaches

So I have more to figure out . . . but it sounds good that I can try my new mold out!

[jcwit]

I am being serious here as this came up on another forum. Are you drinking coffee or anything from mugs made in China? On the other forum the guy was casting and reloading but they found out it was his coffee mugs leaching lead into the coffee.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

No. don't drink coffee, or have mugs from China . . . I drink filtered water from a glass cup . . . more than likely most of my lead is from improper use of emptying my tumbler, and cleaning my primer pockets . . .

[jcwit]

Should have mentionedon my post, I'd get a 2 nd opinion, like someone else said.

[casterofboolits]

A produt I find usefull when casting, reloading or handling lead is "Gloves in a Bottle" which can be found in most drug stores. Put it on like a handcream and it blocks chemicals and other items that can be absorbed by the skin. This is not a replacement for regular gloves, but an additional layer of protection. Works great when working on the car too, reduces ground in grease.

I also use the soap for lead removal when finished.

[MtGun44]

Shawn,

Have you done any cutting or welding on galvanized metal? Zinc vapors can give some
nasty symptoms, too. My Dad had a thyroid problem, got pills 40+ yrs ago and has
not had any related problems since.

Keep working on it, educate yourself on the web and become an expert. This is a huge
benefit of modern technology. Keep talking to Doctors but recognize that like mechanics
some are great and some are not. If you sense a lack of knowledge or lack of effort
to solve your problems, find a new doc. They work for you and some forget that concept.
If you are educated and ask good questions, this can acutually help a good doc to find
out what the problem is. If you ask about something and they dismiss it, ask politely
why they don't think that it could be the problem. Evaluate their reason yourself, may
be a solid reason to reject a particular cause, but maybe there is some more info you
can provide that may come up in the discussion. Diagnosis can be incredibly difficult,
esp with these sort of non-specific symptoms. Learn the medical terms for some of your
symptoms, too - this helps a lot in the searching. Take notes of interesting terminology
and explore it, key words about symptoms or treatments sometimes lead to finding
a critical paper or report on the web.

I have a good friend with an ultra rare cancer, he is doing pretty well 5 yrs into it largely
because he (and I have helped some) has spent a LOT of time on the web and now
understands a lot about the disease and is able to actively participate in the choices of
treatment. He has traveled to Europe for treatments that are not available here due to it
being a super rare disease. Sad to say, but if a research outfit has limited funding (and they
all do) they work on the most common diseases which are killing the greater number of
people. A necessary choice, but not good news if you have something rare. Rare means
less work done on it and that won't change.

Best of luck, I really mean it. YOU and YOUR efforts will make a big difference in the
outcome of this. Don't be passive, be proactive and educated. I see you are a Christian,
keep those prayers going, I'll add to it.

Bill

[zomby woof]

ONLY 14!!!! I'm happy when mine is 14.

[Shooter6br]

i beleive tere are natural supplements to help remove heavy metals

[Shooter6br]

I beleive in Europe that the paramedics give an IV solution of Milk Thistle to victims do to the fact it is know for centuries to de toxify the liver. i find many alternative products which some have been used for 5000 yrs to work better than some drugs. Still must doctors refuse to use them( No profit, ignorance maybe) Goolgle heavy metal poison

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Thanks again everybody,

My Dr seems to be a good one, even though he has almost no experience with lead, he does not just pass out prescriptions, and will actually sit down and talk for as long as is needed, money is not a big thing down there, and their charges reflect that, I truly believe that he wants to help. He told me to take some vitamins, and for my wife to cut out fatty foods . . . not take all these pills . . .

He told me during my first visit that we would get to the bottom of this, if he had to do more searching and consulting with other Dr's across the country, testing other things than just the basics which already have been done.

I went in with a long list which does not make it easy, my biggest complaint, which may tie into the other is waking up tired, I can't get rest while sleeping! Of course I don't like being cold either, that is why I moved to AZ, but . . . I miss my green trees and running water in the brooks!

I try to do thing the natural way, I figure that is why God gave them to us. I will keep praying for wisdom and searching.

I also realize that I could have more than one problem here, and that one may confuse or hide some of the other . . .

I have not cut or welded on galvanized for many many years . . . but did very little when I did. I also heard that those stick welder can cause problems . . . I don't use it much, but when I do it is outside . . .

We do have some milk thistle, my wife takes it, I could take some of that too . . .

[Elkins45]

Your symptoms sound like a combination of hypothyroidism and type 2 diabetes. Have you had your blood glucose levels checked?

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

My Spanish is not real good, but here is my test results . . . looks like middle column top line . . .

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/BloodTest.jpg

[Freightman]

Found an article on Google that recommends the following for lead: calcium, iron, vitamin C, and zinc for lead. Drink plenty of orange juice (shouldn't be a problem in AZ) eat liver, and get a good vitamin and stick to it.

[felix]

Shawn's acid reactions are OK for zinc without heavy doses of calcium. The ADDITIONAL calcium provided by certain brands of orange juice should be sufficient without taking extra calcium. Keep iron on the low side though, unless tested throughly for need. Copper is required to balance zinc when zinc levels rise above a certain amount. ... felix

[HeavyMetal]

O.K. Now that you've had everybody tell you to suck an Orange and throw out your plates lets talk real world.

IF lead is your problem getting it out of your system is, of course, job one.

Job two is to locate the source of the contamination and eliminate it!

Someone mentioned lead testing wipes, he'd used them on a piece of metal he hung around his neck.

Think I'd take this one step further and wipe everything in the house as well as the reloading area and have my water tested.

I would find that unusual lead level area and then deal with it.

Now lets talk about something else and thats the assualt you had when someone smacked you with a pipe.

Have you had a Cat Scan recently? or any of the other "miracle" exam's they currently use?

I think you are correct that the slight level of lead you are experincing may be masking another problem.

I also noted on the tests you had posted that your glucose level, Spanish isn't good, was 85.

Being a "lite" diabetic I am very aware of how a simple change in glucose level makes me feel!

I tried running at 90 and just had a heck of a time functioning: tired, sleepy, numbness, blurred vision ( any of this sound familiar) but when I bumped my diet a little and started running 110 to 115 those issues went away!

I now work a full day and come home tired but I'm not ready to fall asleep behind the wheel at 2:00 in the afternoon!

So you may want to play with diet a little bit.

I am not trying to play doctor here just trying to throw out some ideas you can talk to your doctor about!

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

We talked about getting another cat scan, and comparing it to my old one I had in 95 . . . I do have on occasion a slight "bubble" feeling in either eye, it seems like a bubble of water, that is floating on the bottom eyelid . . . goes away in 3- 30 min, I can still see out of the other part of the eye . . . it is not on the outside, just blurs that section of the eye, like looking through the bottom corner of a jar with a little water in it. This only started in the last six months

I'm not so worried about my lead level now, thanks to Bill!

I did notice that some of my levels were close to either min or max, something we need to sit down and discuss further, and see where it goes.

I've had sleep problems since my assault, but it got quite a bit better, with diet, bedding, pillow selections, but the last year or so It has gotten alot worse! I've had temp (cold) problems for about 4-5 years now. The window of comfort has shrunk in the last year though, now it is 75-82 or so.

I've noticed in the last few months I have harder times with concentrating when more than one thing is going on, along with a "fuzzy brain"

[thx997303]

Have you had a sleep study done? Might be a good idea to actually find out whether you are sleeping properly or not.

[geargnasher]

Let me pile on another suggestion, next time you're down south, get your doctor to recommend a good Opthamologist who specializes in retinal disease/injury. That bubble in your vision could well be the beginnings of a retinal detachment. Retinal tears/detachments occur often with blunt head trauma, and also with age as the vitreous jelly begins to shrink. If caught early, often this can be fixed with just a simple, non-invasive argon laser surgery or two. If you wait until it lets go, your chances of saving the vision in that eye plummets, and best case you'll have to deal with multiple surgeries, scleral buckling, etc., and really never get good vision again. Worth checking in to.

Gear

[Lloyd Smale]

dont get to worked up about it. Mine was as high as 87 once. I was treated twice for lead poisoning. Doctors told me that it isnt even a consern in an adult man unless its over 25. Even at 87 I had no symptoms.

[azcruiser]

Reading this and looking at my hospital discharge records from last week. I have Hyperthyroidisn /Graves disease. check the thyroid again next time you see the doctor -eyes that bulge outward/blurry or double vision -sore irritated eyes-red swollen skin on lower legs -tiredness-
racing heart-heat intolerance------ I let this go way to long put things off. So then my heart been beating way to fast for yrs it gets bigger next thing you know I went into Atrial Fibrillation drive myself to the hospital they check my heart rate 436 per min say you staying hear for a while
at 3 to 6 grand a day + But now I do feel better I hunt down your way Cochise County, Turkey Creek Road in the Chiricahua Mountains . Was down ther 2wks ago counted 28 deer on the way in cool temp was 66f great place

[John Boy]

do you wash your hands when done casting and stuff?
And if you don't, start ... with COLD water only. Keeps the pores of the skin closed better

[MT Gianni]

And if you don't, start ... with COLD water only. Keeps the pores of the skin closed better

That's funny, I ran the faucet one in Arizona for 5 minutes before I realized the water would never get cold.
Shawn I hope that you find the cause and it is fixed quickly.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

That's funny, I ran the faucet one in Arizona for 5 minutes before I realized the water would never get cold.
Shawn I hope that you find the cause and it is fixed quickly.

Yeah, we save on water heating!

Thanks!

[ghh3rd]

I went in with a long list which does not make it easy, my biggest complaint, which may tie into the other is waking up tired, I can't get rest while sleeping!
Try to learn about sleep apnea. My wife (and I) have the symptoms you describe. She did a sleep test and they found that her breathing is abnormal when she sleeps, thus lack of oxygen, no deep sleep, and little rest. She has started using a machine with a mask that forces air into her all night. We'll see if it helps. My turn next for the sleep test.

By the way, about six months ago my lead level tested at 25 -- Dr. told me to quit everything for a month and get retested. I have continued to cast and shoot, but joined an outdoor range and quit going to the indoor range. I haven't been retested, but when I do, I'll bet that I will be lower. Every trip to the indoor range was followed by a day or two of black stuff when I blew my nose. That can't be good for ya.

Actually, I just remembered that I have abstained (unwillingly) from loading and casting and shooting. I moved recently and all of my casting/loading stuff is still packed, and I have a chore list a mile long. It's been about three weeks, and my garage is still jammed with misc stuff and boxes. Perhaps I can make it a whole month and get retested.

I sure miss my lead :-(

[jcwit]

I'd still get another opinion. Running down to Mexico, a second rate country, IMO, to get medical treatment, just doesn't cut it in my book. We have Amish here in No. Indiana that go their just to save money and usually end up in a hosiptal here in the states to get fixed what they mess up.

Why do you think their people come here to get treatment. Remember the U.S.A. has some of the best Dr.'s in the world.

And as far as going the "Natural" route, remember that lead, arsenic, snake venom, ect., ect. are all "Natural". Natural is OK, but don't replace it with conventional medicine.

I'm a cancer surviver, after taking chemo, conventional meds do work.

[thx997303]

I second the sleep apnea. That's why I mentioned the sleep study.

I am still trying to get dialed in on my CPAP. I know the nights it works and the nights it doesn't.

That fuzzy brain thing happens if I either don't use the CPAP at night, or don't get enough sleep.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

I'd still get another opinion. Running down to Mexico, a second rate country, IMO, to get medical treatment, just doesn't cut it in my book. We have Amish here in No. Indiana that go their just to save money and usually end up in a hosiptal here in the states to get fixed what they mess up.

Why do you think their people come here to get treatment. Remember the U.S.A. has some of the best Dr.'s in the world.

And as far as going the "Natural" route, remember that lead, arsenic, snake venom, ect., ect. are all "Natural". Natural is OK, but don't replace it with conventional medicine.

I'm a cancer surviver, after taking chemo, conventional meds do work.

Have you every been to Mexico for medical care?

Let me explain why I choose to go to Mexico for medical services . . . here is an artical I wrote for our local paper May 09 . . .

So I ripped off my finger!

By Shawn T Waldmann

That’s right folks, I literally yanked the end of my finger off, the medical term is “de-gloving” and basically the flesh is striped off the bone, leaving just the tendon, and bone behind.

During the setup of the printing of last months Voice in the Desert, I was getting the paper set up to go between the rollers where the ink is applied to the paper, this consists of two large rubber drums that turn in opposite directions to feed the paper through, we run the press very slowly, but . . . I got my finger too close to where no fingers should be! I felt it grab, and instinctively yanked my hand out! When I looked at it, it looked like there was a little fingernail, and that I had lost my finger prints . . . While Paul rushed to get a clean shop towel, I wrapped my finger in my shirt tail, and squeezed as hard as I could, it hadn’t started to bleed much, but I didn’t want it to! When I took it out of my shirt, to wrap it in the towel, I saw, I had lost more than just my fingerprints! I thought to myself, this is gonna hurt pretty soon, so I sat down as everybody else was rushing around, Tim got some ice, and water in a cup, and I soaked it in that while they got a first aid kit, then, Paul & Dwayne “dressed” it while I lay on the floor with my feet elevated, unfortunately the first aid kit was missing tape, but we found another use for duct tape! (Did you know that duct tape really is not that good for ducts?) Ed rushed and scrapped the piece of finger that I had so hastily left behind off the press and paper, and Dusty put it in a cup with ice, and wrapped it up hoping that it could be put back on.

I am so fortunate that God gave me the people to help me on that day, as I lay there on the floor, as my body adjusted to being dismembered, we discussed a few things, as some of you who know me, I’m rather stubborn, hardheaded, and also rather, well . . . shall we say thrifty! I was planning on just wrapping it up, and taking it easy for the rest of the day, but fortunately our editor Ellen was there and said in a rather matter of fact, but very insistent tone of voice “Shawn you can not just sew that up yourself, you need to go to an emergency room” I did not want to hear this, but I’m glad I finely took her advise, we discussed that If I went to Willcox, or Benson, I would just be transported to Tucson . . . might’s well just drive there myself . . . Since I have no insurance, nor do I want any Mr. President! When I heard Mexico brought up, I was all ears, We prayed before I left, it was a solemn time with me laying on the floor, and about 20 caring people standing around. I decided to go to Agua Prieta Latino Hospital (Calle 13 Ave 22) Victoria had offered to take my wife and me down, as we had never been before.

On the ride down in the truck, I was thinking of the people back printing, and the poor person who would have to feed the paper through the press the next time . . . what must they be thinking? I felt so horrible for them . . . I also was thinking how this could have been so much worse than just a finger!

We got to the hospital, and in less than 2 minutes I was in the emergency room with a nurse un-wrapping the duct tape bandage, she was kinda smirking, but it sure did stick good! I told her that was all we could find at the moment! As soon as she saw the injury, she went and got a doctor, who was there in less than 5 minutes from the time we walked in the door! He looked at it and decided that I needed to have the orthopedic surgeon look at it . . . he was busy, but came very soon. Over all I was VERY IMPRESSED with the level of professional service, the speed, and caring attitude of everybody there, I have to say that it was the best hospital experience I have ever had! Dr. Toledo decided that since it was a tear type injury, that the blood vessels were all tore up, and was not a clean cut like a saw . . . that he would have to amputate back to the 1st knuckle, and take whatever flesh & skin and cover the end of the bone, I was given a private room, and prepped for surgery, after 2 hrs in the operating room, (my wife says one hr, she may be right!) I was ready to come home, but 1st the bill! Including the four different medications for the following week and x-rays it came to a total of $1486 US dollars. It was only about 1 hr drive, they got me right in, gave me 1st class service, and I was “all fixed”! I spent less than 7 hours total in the hospital! Would I go there again? Definitely YES!

I was thinking as I lay in the bed in my private room waiting for the operating room . . . boy, I’m sure glad I got the oil in my truck changed this morning, and the roses dead headed, and kissed my wife this morning . . . as we just never know what will happen . . . people have died in similar accidents . . . I had such great plans for the rest of the afternoon after the paper was done (sometimes it goes quickly, sometimes it goes well into the night) . . . if I had time, I was going to work on my wife’s car, finish up the cosmetics on the whole house water treatment system I had installed the last weekend, made me think of that verse in James 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. What if I had died there at the press, or in the operating room? Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: and I also thought of these verses. 1John 5: 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. I had “No Fear” as the saying goes, as I knew I would go to heaven, as I know whom I have believed in.

The finger has been healing fine, I have been back down twice for checkups, and it is healing well! It is amazing the way our bodies were created to heal ourselves! Last Friday I had decided to grill some fish out on the BBQ, and had gone out to get it, I had a oven mitt on my “good hand”, and when I got to the house, I was going to open the sliding glass door with a few fingers on my “bad hand” well don’t you know that door was stuck, I started to pull on it with 3 fingers, and I got the worst pain in my poor healing finger, even though I was not using it! The straining affected all of the fingers, which then affected my whole body, as I couldn’t open the door! I had to “knock” on the door with by boot, to get my WONDERFUL Wife Cyndi to come open it up, you see it affected her too! She has been so helpful through this whole thing, even though she did pass out in the ER! But it made me think of the verse 1Cor 12: 12 ¶ For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

I have heard many “finger jokes” but I just smile, and laugh, because . . . well there funny! Tom told me that I had long fingers anyways! At least I have been able to reduce my finger nail trimming by 10%.

I have been thinking of ways to make this safer . . . I was talking with Mark, and we may have a good idea, I also have been emailing my Uncle Willy back in PA who was the safety engineer for Proctor & Gamble before he retired, about some type of safe guard.

I have had a few suggestions that maybe I should not be so involved in this paper, as it takes a bunch of my time, and this is my second time with an injury, (last time was an incident with burning the plates) but I still firmly believe that it is worth my while, as we really need a voice out here in the desert that tells us the truth, I believe our community is benefited by this “free” paper, It is not free, but we offer it at no cost to you, It cost me a finger, and there are many volunteers that work countless hours every month to bring you this paper, also you can thank the advertisers, as they also help to make it financially possible to continue to buy paper & ink, beside darkroom supplies . . .

Also a disturbing bit of government interference I discovered that because I drive a school bus, I am only allowed to buy my medications from “brick & mortar” pharmacies here in the states, no internet, nor foreign country pharmacies would be recognized as a valid prescription! Fortunately only the pain meds I got would be tested for in a drug test, and I had only taken one on the night of surgery, When I called DPS Transportation the man I spoke with highly recommended that I got my antibiotics from the USA! What are they going to do next, dictate where I have to buy my groceries? Just remember, they got this passed for us bus drivers, your next!

So in conclusion; I am trying harder to protect my skin, but also think, what if today is the end of the line for me, would I be happy with all I have done? How about you?

Everybody has opinions, and must live their lives as they see fit, I'd rather get better service & care by going to Mexico.

[jcwit]

Well No, I've never been to mexice to see a Dr. or for medical care. But I have ripped 2 of my fingers off, not cut off but ripped out/off of my hand, both of them I chased across the shop floor for 10--15 feet before I recovered them. Was taken to a hosiptal here in No. Indiana and both were reattached and I know have almost full use of them both, can even type with them.

What I was attempting to get at is dignitaries from all over the world come here for the best of medical care, never heard of any trucking to mexico for medical care. However do as you wish, your bod, your health, just not for me brother.

If the end came for me in the next 5 minutes, would I be happy with the life I've lived, you bet your bippy, have lived a very full life and if happiness is any measure of success, I'm one of the richest folks in the world. Just hope it doesn't end yet but if so then so be it, I trust in my Lord and know his wishes are positive.

For what its worth my medical care comes from one of the 1 st rated care centers in the U.S., the VA Administration, my care is 1st rate.

In closing, as I said do as you wish, your body, your health, I just don't see going to a third world country for my health care. I've seen and know of to many horror stories here with the Amish trying to save a few bucks, and spending loads more trying to get the problems undone after returning home.

This is all my opinion of course and it cost as much as its worth
jcwit

[qajaq59]

Somehow, I'd bet there are better places to get medical advice then in a bullet casting forum on the web. But then I'm old and kinda picky anyway. [smilie=l:

[glicerin]

the lab tests showed units of ug/dL(called micrograms per decilitre). Doctors and lab techs can get confused by units and normal parameters. I used to be tested monthly on the job (met lab)and was told 0 to 40 ug/dL was perfectly normal. Some labs use mg/L, others umol/L. The only time I had a slight increase was after shooting PPC indoors in a poorly vented range. My greatest danger of lead poisoning is collecting, sorting, and cleaning wheelweights and other lead scrap. The dust in air and on hands is lead oxide. A little care goes a long way, unless your body chemistry and/or genes make you especially susceptible. good luck

[jcwit]

A final thought. Would it not be better to support our own economy rather than a foreign economy?

Just a thought!

[Lloyd Smale]

cant see the differnce in seeing a mexican doctor in mexico or a doctor here that just came from india like about half the doctors in the US are now. Its getting tough to find an american doctor that speaks english good enough to carry on a conversation with.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

A final thought. Would it not be better to support our own economy rather than a foreign economy?

Just a thought!

I ussually do suport our local economy . . . however when our medical facilities are not able to meet my needs, I look elsewhere . . . not sure what you (or your ins co) paid for you finger operation . . .but about a month after mine was done, we had a vistor at church who had cut his finger off with a table saw . . . he wound it up, along with the "piece" and had his wife drive him half an hour to Willcox, AZ hospital where they re-bandaged him, and put him in a helecopter and flew him to Tucson . . . 16 hours later he finally went into the operating room, and they were not able to save the piece of finger they had brought with them . . . that was just under $60,000.00, but he could have reduced that by about $15,000.00 for the helecopter ride . . . Mine was done in 7 hours . . . for less than a total of $1,500.00 and my finger looks much better than what his was . . .

Most medical facilities here in the USA have such a back log that it is rediculuse, last week, after we saw our family doctor in Mexico, he sugested we see a specialist, in less than half an hour we are in the specialist office with him! Try that in America!!

I believe that the leval of care in Mexico (at least where I go) is far better that the USA, and the speed of service is amazing too! and last but not least they are able to do it for a fair price, not an overpriced rippoff! Up here we see a Dr for 15 min, and we are just some scribble on a chart . . . but look at the bill they give you . . . Last week we spent two hours with our family doctor, and he said "no charge" try finding a Dr in the USA to do that!

And . . . my Doctor speaks English too!

[Dannix]

Another point. Back when lead was used in gasoline everybody had a lot higher lead in the bloodstream and it was OK.
^I was just thinking about that on the way to work today.

Be careful with going the 'natural way'. Some of the deadliest toxins, are, yup, 100% all natural organic. A 'natural' supplement may be a good for you as drinking Poison Sumac juice...well maybe not quite, but you get the idea. Does sound like you got a good totally un-America doc! I had a friend down in Auz who's doc once told him he wasn't sure about a problem, and so he should just take it easy, eat well, get a lot of rest sleep, and come back in next week. NO WAY that would happen here -- the customers wouldn't allow it. :\


Originally Posted by jcwit
A final thought. Would it not be better to support our own economy rather than a foreign economy?
By saving money in Mexico, Shawn can spend more money here. The concept of 'supporting our own economy' doesn't work (though there are safety obvioulsy, e.g. look up the story on Chinese cold syrup sent to Mexico). Oh, and we wouldn't have to import hardly anything from China and OPEC if we had a proper immigration policy, got rid of minimum wage, and stopped dragging our feet on responsibly harvesting our own energy resources. Getting OT now. :lol: I'm a young whippersnapper though, and I really do expect to see America fall as superpower within my lifetime. In recent times, we've done remarkably well despite everything the Gov. has done. :? A country is only as good as it's people. iirc the top 5% pay more than half the taxes or something ridiculous like that, so you end up with more than half the voters wanting handouts because they won't have to pay for it. Pair that with frivolous lawsuits that win (which makes for crazy medical costs in the end) and you have today's America. ...it's a particularly slow work day today, can you tell? :lol:

fibromyalgia - as soon as a general practitioner mentions that, watch out. iirc that's a 'catch-all' for 'we're not sure what's wrong'. It was in one particular case I know away. That person's problem ended up being a plethora of allergies. You can look into that in addition to sleep apnea. iirc an allergy test costs ~$1k here, but it maybe cheaper on the other side of the boarder.
1 Cor 10:13. :)

[jcwit]

cant see the differnce in seeing a mexican doctor in mexico or a doctor here that just came from india like about half the doctors in the US are now. Its getting tough to find an american doctor that speaks english good enough to carry on a conversation with.

I believe the testing required to practice here in the U.S.A. explaines why there is a difference in a Dr. in Meico verses a Dr. in the U.S. from another country.

I have no idea what the testing procedures are in Mexico but I doubt they even come close to our standards./

Make sense?

(Ouote from Dannix)
By saving money in Mexico, Shawn can spend more money here.

And by spending more money here in the U.S.A. another American has more money to possibily spend here.

Make sense?

[jcwit]

123 DielselBenz, Mayhap your medical costs are way, way, way higher than here in No. Indiana. My mishap was 10 years ago in 2001 and total cost was paid by myself at the time, checked with my wife who pays the bills and she said total cost was in the neighbor hood of $10,000 to $12,000. This encluded the ambulance run, emergency room care, specialist to reattach 2 fingers and reconstruct hand, and 4 months therapy till I told them to stick it for requiring me to sitting up straight in a chair while waiting with the heat pad.

In the same year I was admitted into the hosiptal for pneumonia in mid afternoon. As is normal when entering a hosiptal blood was drawn, in late afternoon my Dr. came back into my room with a cancer specialist and informed me I had some kind of blood or bone cancer and they were moving me to the cancer ward. By morning I was diagnosed with leukamia, and within 2 days was narrowed down to what kind. So yes, I know just how long it takes for a Dr. to get a specialist and how long it takes to get them on board.

Better write a letter to Mayo Clinic, or the Cleveland Clinic and let them know just how great those Mexican Dr.s are, maybe they can get them to take care of some of their overflow. Lets see how that'll work out.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

JCWIT,

I'm Happy with going to Mexico for treatment . . . Your Happy not going to Mexico . . . lets keep it that way . . .

I've never tried to convince you to cross the border, but please don't knock my decision to go a slightly different route for my medical care.


[smilie=s:

[azcruiser]

Think the biggest difference in cost of care in Mexico vs USA comes down to they don't have to pay malpractice insurance next time you visit your doctor casually as what he/she pay for malpractice insurance you will be shocked.Plus in Mexico you pay as you go.They don't have 20million illegal immigrants draining their medical and social systems. When one of them don't pay or can't pay
it's figured in on the rest of us we pay for it .Who better think it depends on where the doctor went to school a US doctor with a degree from some Podunk caribbean island nation or a Mexican doctor from the same school will probably give the same care. The student with the lowest grade score in his/her class at the end of the day is called WHAT
DOCTOR.

[jcwit]

OK I'll agree with that as I already have with my statements 2 times with your bod and your health.

I still refuse to believe the best of care can come from Mexico. However they do export lots of drugs. lol

[Dannix]

However they do export lots of drugs. lol
Ah ha! Now we know why Shawn really goes across the board for 'treatment.'
:kidding:

I would totally agree that the best US healthcare is worlds away from Mexico's. It's finding that top-notch general practitioner in your area who also knows who the top-notch specialists are that can be hard. That said, there also seems to be bang-for-buck aspect in this particular case too.

[MT Gianni]

123 DielselBenz, Mayhap your medical costs are way, way, way higher than here in No. Indiana. My mishap was 10 years ago in 2001 and total cost was paid by myself at the time, checked with my wife who pays the bills and she said total cost was in the neighbor hood of $10,000 to $12,000. This encluded the ambulance run, emergency room care, specialist to reattach 2 fingers and reconstruct hand, and 4 months therapy till I told them to stick it for requiring me to sitting up straight in a chair while waiting with the heat pad.

In the same year I was admitted into the hosiptal for pneumonia in mid afternoon. As is normal when entering a hosiptal blood was drawn, in late afternoon my Dr. came back into my room with a cancer specialist and informed me I had some kind of blood or bone cancer and they were moving me to the cancer ward. By morning I was diagnosed with leukamia, and within 2 days was narrowed down to what kind. So yes, I know just how long it takes for a Dr. to get a specialist and how long it takes to get them on board.

Better write a letter to Mayo Clinic, or the Cleveland Clinic and let them know just how great those Mexican Dr.s are, maybe they can get them to take care of some of their overflow. Lets see how that'll work out.


A co-workers father chose to have replacement hip surgery at the Mayo vs a Dr in his clinic in Mexico, as he wintered in Arizona. The total cost in Mexico was to have been $5000 USD. The Surgeons Fee @ the Mayo was $16,500 USD, the surgeons Fee only. The Dr that performed the surgery was the same Dr from Mexico. Figure that one out.

[jcwit]

Figure that one out.


Malpractice Insurance for starters. He would be practicing in the States. Very simple.

I'll bet this isn't a daily practice tho.

[PatMarlin]

What a story Shawn.

Get your water tested and eliminate that. Sometimes those whole house filters become contaminant concetrators as well.

Specially with as much water as you drink.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Pat,

I probably won't bother with my water test, as I drink only about 2 quarts from home, the rest I drink at work/school where our water is tested every month . . . I'm not as worried now about my lead level as I was in post #1, of course lower would be better, and I think just modifying my primer removal/cleaning practice will help reduce that . . .

BTW I got the 30 cal CheckMaker, but haven't had time to try it out yet either . . .

I also did not get down to see the Dr Friday as I planned, maybe this next Friday . . .

[Elkins45]

My Spanish is not real good, but here is my test results . . . looks like middle column top line . . .

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/BloodTest.jpg

On the bright side, your cholesterol numbers are good!