plumber lead ???

[XWrench3]

i am curious as to why plumber used soft lead, instead of just plain old whatever they come across. or do they even still use lead? is it just a carryover from the old days.

also, for what it may be worth, i was at the hospital today and they were installing lead sheetrock. i asked one of the guys if it was a new room, or remodel. he said remodel. so i asked him anout maybe getting some of the old stuff. he said no luck. they had to treat it almost like it was neucular fuel rods. he said they had to account for every sheet. i left it at that, but i wonder if the govt has their hands in that now as well. protecting us from ourselves kind of thing.

[JIMinPHX]

As far as I know, plumbers use lead for poured joints on old fashion cast iron pipes & that's about it. I don't think that they do too much of that these days, but I'm not a plumber, so I really don't know.

[John Guedry]

Soft lead in cast iron pipe joints(poured on top of tightly packed okem) is then peened to prevent leakage. Its getting to be a lost art since so much pipe is now pvc.

[DIRT Farmer]

My last experience working in the hospital, anything that can be considered a hazardous material ( read a libility risk ) is documented out of the facility. Some IV needles,like two or three, after being run through the onsite incinerator were found on the lot, management exploded. It was fun to watch from the prespective of an old medic with a warped sence of humor.

[azrednek]

Plumbers often used what ever they had on hand. At least that is what I was told by an older plumber. I had to repair a drain pipe on my older home. I used wheel weights. The old guy I called told me they preferred silvery looking lead so the customer could visually see the work. He told me could have cared less about the content of the lead as long as it melted easily with a torch. Don't get the old plumbers lead confused with the solder currently used to connect copper pipes.

[lwknight]

In the old days lead was like dirt cheap and there was no reason to add anything to it except for soldering. Pure lead served its purpose wery well and was easier to work thn harder alloys.
Its a matter of economy not of being picky.

[MT Gianni]

Lead was also used as fixtures such as a shower pan under a tile shower. Soft meant malleable and generally leak proof.

[303Guy]

In my part of the world, a lot of old lead drain pipes are being removed and this stuff has high tin plumbers solder on the joints. Great find for casting boolits! Alloy unknown - it's any old stuff that was soft enough to make into drain pipes (the ones found under hand basins and the like). It's now my prefered choice of lead and it seems to toughen up just nice with copper (tiny amounts). That's still to be confirmed. Lead was once used as water supply pipe. Not sure how good that was for our health.

A very good reason for the government of any nation to protects its citizens from health risks is that they lose tax payers and potential cannon fodder .. ummm ... I mean soldiers! Like they care about our health - really! It's about cost.:cry:

[MtGun44]

Nowdays they get it from tearing out old work, not using it new.

As said; old shower pans, drain pipes and lead seals on cast iron toilet system drains.

Bill

[BD]

Lead pickings are pretty slim these days in new construction. Cast iron drain piping is installed using rubber "No Hub" fittiings with stainless steel jackets and hose clamps. They're even getting away from solder on copper water lines by using the Pro-Press system which crimps a rubber O-ring into the joint. Shower pan liners are sheet vinyl or rolled on elastomere. Occasionally I still can pick up some 50/50 solder stubs if there's a copper roof or flashing.

Tear downs and remodels are the best source. lead pipe, flashing and buried cable sheathing were common until about 1950. My last two years of shooting were supported by a big "remodel" in NY.

Sam, I'd trade what I have left in soft lead for wheel weights as I don't do any BP shooting and the chilled shot I was using to make alloy has gotten pretty pricey.

BD

[fatelvis]

Nowdays they get it from tearing out old work, not using it new.
For some reason, here in Chicago, PVC is not allowed. All the drain piping is still cast iron with poured lead joints. Being a Union Sprinklerfitter, you can bet that I make friends quick with the Plumbers on the job, and by the end of the job walk away with a few hundred pounds of lead pigs, and a few dozen lbs. of 95/5 solder to alloy it up with! See, being an uneducated lowly construction worker has it's benifits! LOL

[MtGun44]

the reason PVC is not allowed is to increase the work and profit
margin for union plumbers. PVC is cheap and fast, less margin
on the materials and a bunch less labor cost.

Chicago is nothing if not union friendly. I'm sure they have some
elaborate excuse worked up, too.

Bill

[76 WARLOCK]

Lead water pipe is still in use in older parts of Denver. I used to work with a bunch of water and sewer guys and got a life time supply of lead. Lead water lines were installed in houses up until the late fiftys when copper replaced it inside. The water service from the main into the house seems to last forever if not disturbed so a lot are still out there. The lead oxidizes inside and skins over so lead does not hurt anyone inspite of what people say.

[MtGun44]

Depends on the water. In KC area, lime deposits cover it quickly so no problems.

In central VA where my Dad lives, I have personally replaced copper that looked like
lacework and would crumble in your hand. The ground water there disolves copper.

I was finally able to discover why I would throw up if I drank water right out of the tap
at a friends house in that area when visiting 45-50 yrs ago. If I drank tap water in the
morning, I'd puke within 3 minutes but not if I ran the tap for a minute. Too
much copper in the water that sat in the pipes overnight dumped into an empty
stomach.

Water varies a lot.

Bill

[fatelvis]

Chicago is nothing if not union friendly.
Bill, is that a bad thing?

[quilbilly]

In my area I have never heard of anything but pure lead going into old pipe. As said above, the impurities are in the joints. Roof and pipe lead are great to work with if you are trying to make your perfect alloy.

[lwknight]

Bill, is that a bad thing?

It is bad that a home owner has to pay several times the rate of other states
for home plumbing repair.
Its also bad that any commercial busines pays three prices for plumbing.

The union ways are hurting everyne sorta like biting the hand that feeds ya.

[MtGun44]

When protecting the union means a homeowner or business has to pay a bunch more
money for a job, and that job will be done using outdated and inferior technology which
is required by a govenment agency, not for any benefit in safety or durability for the
customer, but to artificially increase the material cost and labor hours necessary to do the
job and therefore increase the paycheck for the union plumber, I'd call that a bad thing,
being a customer.

I'm sure the union plumbers think it is great, and I'm sure that they would solemnly
explain that this is all done "for your own protection from inferior and dangerous
unskilled plumbers." Of course, there is always enough truth in the argument to
make sure that the law stays unchanged and plumbers make a great living. I have
friends that are plumbers and absolutely do not have anything against plumbers or
anyone making a good living. I do object to anyone using the government to make
laws which primarily result in them making more money.

My father built his own home in rural VA many years ago. He wanted to wire his own
home, but the county required it be done by a licensed electrician. So, my Dad took
the licensing test and failed. He was surprised, being a very experienced engineer
with lots of expertise in electicity. So he took the test again, and failed again. The 3rd
time he asked the tester whether he could copy the test before he turned it in. A
discussion of why he was taking the test ensued, off the record of course, and when
it was made clear that my father was just going to wire his own home, not open a
business to compete with the local small town electricians -- suddenly he passed
the test. This sort of crooked "safety based" job protection is apparently fairly
common and is certainly wrong.

Fortunately, where I live this is not the case. Plus, I do all my own plumbing anyway.

Bill

[deerslayer]

the reason PVC is not allowed is to increase the work and profit
margin for union plumbers. PVC is cheap and fast, less margin
on the materials and a bunch less labor cost.

Chicago is nothing if not union friendly. I'm sure they have some
elaborate excuse worked up, too.

Bill

First of all no matter how cheap PVC is it has no business above ground in a commercial or industrial application. This is due to fire codes, lately, they have allowed limited use in areas that were not considered plenum areas. But the fact is the fumes that are produced when a piece of PVC burns is a real killer in a large enviroment that may take a minute or two for the occupants to escape.

Second of all cast iron is much quieter when someone right above you flushes the toilet.

As to pouring lead joints rather than using No-hub joints it is no secret that a properly poured lead joint is quite a bit stronger than a no-hub joint even when using a husky band.

I have personally replaced cast iron that was put in in the early 1900's and was just now begining to fail. PVC just went into use in the late 70's and early 80's and becomes very brittle after 15 or 20 years of use and usually breaks at the joints due to lack of support.

Oh did it get mentioned that cast iron requires quite a few less hangers to support it due to it having some strength to support itself. And if you have ever spent all day drilling the concrete floor above you to install hangers you will be real happy to put less in. Also cast iron is much more resistant to crushing from ground pressure than pvc is capable of.

As to keeping these rules around for the unions? Did you ever think that qaulity has a value and a properly installed system has a value. You can put it in right to begin with or you can pay me to keep coming and fixing it. I don't care who put the plumbing in (union or not) most service guys like me can tell you pretty quick if it was put in right. And believe it or not a system that cost a little more in initial cost and is properly installed will not require as much maintenence.

The properly installed is where the unions come in like it or not unions typically have alot higher qaulity of work. The non union contractors have realized this and have been progressively getting better but they are also finding out that it costs money to be on our level and therefore the good nonunion contractors usually have to pay right around union scale to get someone who knows what they are doing and is not a hack. I am not saying that all non union people don't know what they are doing because there are alot of good ones out there so no offense to any one.

For more info on cast iron advantages check out Cast Iron Soil Pipe Institute or CISPI

[fatelvis]

that job will be done using outdated and inferior technology
Wow! Do you have that backwards! Unions train thier members, and use cutting edge products and methods. Myself, and I know Union Plumbers in my area, were schooled for 5 years, during our apprenticeship. Yes, many times Union labor will cost more, but believe me, the saying "you get what you pay for" applies here. Being in the service end of my trade, I am constantly fixing other people's (non-Union) "work". I know first hand that most of these untrained guys have no business touching Fire Protection work. And to think people entrust thier lives and property to them, (because of thier lower bid), makes me sick.

[deerslayer]

Yep, 5 years here in apprenticeship training.

[MtGun44]

So cast iron drain pipe with oakum hammer in and lead poured over it is
modern and state of the art? I have no doubt that it WORKS, it has for
decades. Technology moves on and cheaper methods that are durable
replace older technologies.

Look, my point is not particularly against unions, altho when they team up with
the government to screw me, I tend to object. PLEASE re read.
it is the stupid government that makes rules requiring old technology which increases
costs without benefit that I am against.

You choose what you want, and fortunately where I live I don't have the
"advantage" of the crooked Cook County govenment thugs telling me what kind of
plumbing to put in my house.

[fatelvis]

So cast iron drain pipe with oakum hammer in and lead poured over it is
modern and state of the art?
If it isn't broke, don't fix it.
Deerslayer answered my question of why cast iron is still used. I was not referring to cast iron pipe as "cutting edge", and I think you know it.

Technology moves on and cheaper methods that are durable
replace older technologies
Deerslayer testified that cast iron lasted about 100 yrs., before showing failure, and bell and gasket types deteriorated in about 1/5 of the time. .... So much for that statement.
As far as Cook County Politicians, I agree they need a clean sweep. I moved out of that county years ago, and am so glad I did!
Now, back to Plumber's lead.........
I have found that about 15 lbs. PL alloyed with 3 feet of 95/5 solder matches my wheelweight alloy hardness. (Used Lee's hardness tester).

[qajaq59]

See, being an uneducated lowly construction worker has it's benifits! LOL In a couple of years when the rest of us can't get any lead you wont ever be seen as "lowly" again. :kidding:

[deerslayer]

So Bill I am confused are you against building codes??

I have seen plenty of work where the inspector wasn't involved at all and then the new homeowner moves in only to find their dream house is a mechanical nightmare. Of course with no regard for plumbing code people put it in however they want. A ziptie or some duct tape for a hanger, and these flexible lines will work in the wall right, and why can't I hook the discharge of this water softener right to the sewer.

The fact is Plumbers save more lives every year than doctors. Do you realize that unsafe drinking water was the number 1 reason people died up until modern plumbing. If you are on city water do you really want neighbor Joe hacking in a aspirator pump without a backflow or letting his water softener directly discharge in the sewer. But we don't want any government intervention so the heck with a backflow preventer and the first time a fire engine sucks on that water line a little it will be sucking on neighbor joes backed up sewer out of his slop sink that he did not need that pricey vacuum breaker or air gap on.

As the bottom of your post says "if it was easy anybody could do it" and that doesn't just apply to reloading.

[XWrench3]

well, as far as unions go, my whole family was union, except for me (because of my trade choice which was not union represented). my pay was substansialy less than theirs because of that. in my opinion, a good strong union, that is not overpowering in its demands to the point of business failure, is one of the best things that ever happened in the U.S.A.! unfortunatly, sometimes the unions get to overzealous, and then we see what happens. the big companies leave the USA, and many of us are without jobs because of it. then, there is the whole political thing, where a bunch of treasonous senators and congressmen gave away our entire manufacturing industry. i am absoloutly certain they were bribed very well indeed. i would like to see every one of them tried and hung for treason! unfortunatly, i truely believe this will play a major part in our countries collapse. we simply can not survive, and have "the good life" on service or shopping mall jobs. this post has gone a long way away from its original question. but what the heck.