Accuracy issues with soft lead 45 Colt

[Johnnycoal]

I'm new to casting, so I'm hoping some of you pros here can help me out! Im casting with Dick Dastardly's Big Lube 210 gr JP mold, using an alloy of 1 part WW/1 part Pb. I shoot black powder (also new to me) and have found that with a full 35 gr (volume) of BP that these loads are terribly inaccurate. I'm talking 15" groups at 25 yards. With a reduced charge of 16 gr they are just fine, around 2" at 25 yards. I don't have a chronograph, or a bullet tester, but the full charge loads should be around 1200 fps. I'm guessing they should be around BHN 7 from what I've read.

So, does anyone know why the accuracy would fall off so sharp with heavier loads? If I'm not mistaken they shot soft lead back in 1873, with full charges of BP, and didn't have terrible accuracy. What is the difference between my loads an the ones from the 1870s? Is my lead just too soft for max loads? I thought I had heard of 45-70 shooters casting with near pure, and their velocities would be much higher than mine. Any help would be really appreciated!

[RobS]

I have to first put it out there that I don't shot holy black, but it isn't about the speed of the bullet necessarily; it has to do with pressures. Your upper load would be carrying more pressures and could very likely be exceeding your alloys strength where as your lower load wouldn’t be carrying as much pressure.

If you have some info on your reloads, i.e. pressures, that would help with understanding what is going on with your current situation. One more question: Are you having any leading in the barrel with the upper load?

[Johnnycoal]

Thanks for the reply. The pressure of full power BP loads should be around 11000 psi. To be honest, I can't tell if I'm getting leading or not. There is so much BP lube and residue in the barrel that I can't see anything else. When I swab the bore though, I am only seeing black residue, no lead. Forgot to mention, I am sizing the boolits to .452. I tried some unsized ones (they drop at .454) and got the same very poor accuracy.

I'm thinking my alloy may just be too soft, but like I said didn't they shoot soft lead and full charges back in "the day"?

[BABore]

I know nada about BP, but I'm shooting the same AC'd, 10 bhn alloy, with a PB boolit out of my 44 mag, 480 Ruger, and buddy's 45 colt with full house magnum loads. These are running 35-45 kpsi. My guess is your problem lies with your boolt size and/or gun throat and groove dimension. I would ask your question over in the BP forum and provide full details on throat diameters, bore/groove size, boolit diameter, lube, and loading procedure.

[geargnasher]

+1 BABore.

Gear

[runfiverun]

the 45 colt achieved 45 acp velocities with b/p just with a heavier boolit.
the 45 schofield was near identical in acp boolit weight and velocities.
all the acp did was put those ballistics in a pistol.
i'd guess you got a holy mess in your bbl and it's affecting your bullet engagement with the rifling.
i get a grey ash out of my muzzler loader after about 20 rounds when shooting it.
shoot the biggest boolit you can and thicken up your lube some.
if your boolit isn't pushing out the mess from shot to shot it's affecting your accuracy.
and if it's pushing it all out each shot your getting purge flyers.
check your first shot clean bbl accuracy, if it's good then make some changes to the lube.

[fredj338]

I've shot 255gr bullets cast that way w/ SPG lube @ 900fps & accuracy was quite good. You could try a diff lube for the higher vel or alloy, but do one at a time to elimnate variables. It coul dbe lube failure @ the higher vel. I shoot that alloy in my 44mags to 1200fps w/ good accuracy in smokeless loads.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

My experience...
I shoot a Ruger Old army with rounds balls cast with dead soft lead.
A full charge of REAL black powder is about 40 grains...and acuracy is awful.
a half charge 20 grains, (topped with 20 grains of corn meal for a filler).
the groups tighten to my revovler shooting ability
which is about 3" @ 50 feet (my distance of choice).

I think it's something to do with the powder charge....pressure/speed or whatever.
But definately NOT your alloy,
bullet sizing is a big deal with 45LC, (sadly, I can't help you with that)
the Old Army sizes the round balls when loaded :)
Jon

[missionary5155]

Howdy Johnnycoal and WELCOME.
First thing to always do when working with firearms and Cast Boolits is to do the basic measuring.
Revolver-- you need to KNOW the cylinder throat diameters and the barrel diameter at the rear and the muzzle. Hopefully as stated above the cylinder throats are larger. .001 would be very nice. IF the cylinder throats are small than the barrel then you need your cylinder reamed. Sadly many revolvers are made that way. Casts boolits just do not fair well rattling down a barrel. They need a tight grip the whole jounel so with a revolver that means start out tight and get squeezed into the barrel for another tight fit.

[Doc Highwall]

I would like to add that wheel weights contain antimony which is good for making bullets hard but the down side is the antimony is not ductile. If you research some more you will find that the bullets made in the 1800's were made only with lead and tin. If you are only going to shoot black powder I would recommend lead/tin alloy only and save the wheel weights for smokeless powder loads.

[44man]

My experience...
I shoot a Ruger Old army with rounds balls cast with dead soft lead.
A full charge of REAL black powder is about 40 grains...and acuracy is awful.
a half charge 20 grains, (topped with 20 grains of corn meal for a filler).
the groups tighten to my revovler shooting ability
which is about 3" @ 50 feet (my distance of choice).

I think it's something to do with the powder charge....pressure/speed or whatever.
But definately NOT your alloy,
bullet sizing is a big deal with 45LC, (sadly, I can't help you with that)
the Old Army sizes the round balls when loaded :)
Jon
This is true with mine too but I hunt deer with mine and use 41 gr of Swiss FFFG for 1102 fps. I put up with accuracy loss because I shoot deer close with it.
I gained some back by using a thick BPCR lube over the balls. I use Mathew's lube, SPG dries out the bore too much. The thicker lube does not blow away from gap blast like Crisco.
The more BP used, the more fouling in the bore so it needs more lube to keep soft.
Maybe a lube change would help Johnnycoal. A good lube can be made with Ballistol, beeswax and lanolin. Safflower oil or Lube Gard valve and assembly lube is also good.
When I shot BPCR and tried SPG, I could not get a patch through the last 10" of barrel unless it was soaking wet.
He didn't say what lube he is using but if it is smokeless lube, it will cause a lot of problems.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

This is true with mine too but I hunt deer with mine and use 41 gr of Swiss FFFG for 1102 fps. I put up with accuracy loss because I shoot deer close with it.
I gained some back by using a thick BPCR lube over the balls. I use Mathew's lube, SPG dries out the bore too much. The thicker lube does not blow away from gap blast like Crisco.
The more BP used, the more fouling in the bore so it needs more lube to keep soft.
Maybe a lube change would help Johnnycoal. A good lube can be made with Ballistol, beeswax and lanolin. Safflower oil or Lube Gard valve and assembly lube is also good.
When I shot BPCR and tried SPG, I could not get a patch through the last 10" of barrel unless it was soaking wet.
He didn't say what lube he is using but if it is smokeless lube, it will cause a lot of problems.
Good point about the Lube.
in my Old army, I use Bear Grease when it's cold out,
and TC's bore butter when above 60º F.
Bear Grease above 60º is more like bear oil :)
I haven't advanced to blending my own lube yet.
Jon

[44man]

Good point about the Lube.
in my Old army, I use Bear Grease when it's cold out,
and TC's bore butter when above 60º F.
Bear Grease above 60º is more like bear oil :)
I haven't advanced to blending my own lube yet.
Jon
OH, you have to! [smilie=l: Fooling with lubes is as much fun as everything else you play with. You can beat store bought stuff real easy.
Store bought lubes can get so hard in the cold you can't do a thing with it or they dry out or melt in the heat.
If you ever bought Maxi Balls from the store and found the lube all dried out, you know what I mean. The package says the lube still works?????? How does dry lube soften BP fouling?
The very best lube for a muzzle loading rifle is Young Country. I shoot hundreds of rounds in a day without ever wiping the bore or losing accuracy. I use VERY TIGHT balls and patches. I use a .535" ball and a .022" patch in a .540" barrel, yet keep loading all day. I use a .450" ball and .010" patch in my .450" flintlock barrels.
I love BP but hate to clean the darn things anymore! :holysheep

[oldtoolsniper]

Wagons did not have wheel weights in the 1870's? How did they balance the wheels?

:kidding:

[44man]

Wagons did not have wheel weights in the 1870's? How did they balance the wheels?

:kidding:
So many ruts in the roads, how would you know? [smilie=l:

[Johnnycoal]

Sorry for the late reply fellas, I was at work. Well it sounds like it is not my alloy, which is good news since I cast up a couple thousand already. The lube that i'm using is DD Pearl Lube II, supposedly the stuff is great for BP.

I'm shooting these loads out of a carbine, and I measured the bore with a caliper at .451. Not as good as slugging I know, but it's what i've got. My boolits are sized to .452. I haven't measured the chamber (how would you?) but I'm not getting any blowby or fouling on the cases, so it looks to seal tight enough.

The thing that's baffling me is that the boolits work fine at reduced charges. That seems to point to the lube and sizing being OK. It's only when you push em' fast that accuracy falls off. I'm just happy to hear it's not my alloy. Should I try some unlubed and see if that helps, just for more data?

[Grapeshot]

[QUOTE= Should I try some unlubed and see if that helps, just for more data?[/QUOTE]


NO! Do not shoot your bullets unlubed out of that carbine. From what I gathered from the above posts you may have used up all the lube before the bullet leaves the barrel with your high speed, high velocity load. I would suggest that you try some PRS 250 grain BIG LUBE BOOLITS and see what happens then. I use the Mav Duchman BLB in my .44 WCF and I don't have the fouling problem I used to have.

With the 200 grain .44 MD I can usually shoot two to thre stages before I have to shove a wet patch down the bore to get rid of any crud left behind by Black Powder. You may have to run a wet patch down the bore after every magazine full just to maintain YOUR ACCURACY.

There are plenty of people here and over in the Black Powder Cartridge forum that will give you good advice.