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View Full Version : So is 2400 a good choice for lever guns



jh45gun
07-21-2010, 04:37 PM
OK I posted at an other forum about my model 95 in 45/70 and mentioned my load was 24 grains of 2400 with a 405 grain cast bullet. I got this rebuttle after I had posted I use 2400 for all my cast bullet loads I use 17 grains for the 30/30 with a 180 grain cast bullet also and use that same bullt in my 06 (20 grains of 2400) and for my K31 same load as the 06.

Well, it's your face. 2400 is a slow pistol powder, it can be used in the .30 carbine. It makes for a very, very fast rifle powder. If you want reduced loads in 30/30 or 30-06 Unique is a much better choice with lead bullets. It's faster but develops less pressure. For the 45-70 use black powder or a substitute for reduced loads. We don't allow powder load wights because typo's are common.


So now I am wondering is 2400 a Good choice I always figured it was.

btroj
07-21-2010, 05:17 PM
Strange to read this as I also use 24 gr with a 405 cast in 45-70 and 17 gr with e 165 RD bullet in 30-30.
Meybe we can see who goes blind first? I just love the garbage you find online from so called experts. It is almost as good as what you get for advice at the range or in a gun shop.
Keep using those charges and never look back.

jh45gun
07-21-2010, 05:49 PM
Yea I figure that I would just get the general consensus and post that others use it with no problems I already did post that ED Harris has used a lot of 2400 and he has put a lot of lead bullets down range.

9.3X62AL
07-21-2010, 06:00 PM
Alliant 2400 may be my most-used powder, period. It gets called upon for 410 shotshell, cast boolits in Magnum revolvers, and just about all of my cast boolit rifle loads--from 223 Rem to 45-70. Of course, I got told that cast boolits would MELT in 30-06 bores before the boolit emerged, so I'm just plumb nuts for even trying such stunts. As are the rest of us who attempt same.

Yes, certifiable. That's us.

jh45gun
07-21-2010, 06:30 PM
Just for the record I am not posting this to bash the other forum member that posted that comment I just want other comments just so I can go back and say the general consensus is its a safe powder when used right in 45/70 and other calibers.

imashooter2
07-21-2010, 08:54 PM
Alliant listed 2400 loads for .30/30 cast in their "silhouette" section, though it should be noted that your loads well exceeded their recommendations. My favorite .30/30 cast load uses 2400.

runfiverun
07-21-2010, 08:59 PM
i also use a lot of the 2400.
19 grs in stuff like the 44 mag45 colt and the same 19 in the 7x57, and like sized cases with nominal boolit weights.
it's like the load of red dot velocity wise but better pressure wise.
unique does not work well for me in rifle loads, but does fine in handguns.
most people [even experienced] reloaders just have no concept of how cast works, full powered rifle loads with lead on the end will back most shooters off a lane or two, or prompt them to ask lots of questions.

Jack Stanley
07-21-2010, 09:21 PM
I've used twenty-four hundred in the 45/70 with heavy slugs but I forget what the charge was . I really gotta get back to that big bore ...... I'll put it on the list of things to do .

Jack

9.3X62AL
07-21-2010, 09:34 PM
Just for the record I am not posting this to bash the other forum member that posted that comment I just want other comments just so I can go back and say the general consensus is its a safe powder when used right in 45/70 and other calibers.

The knowledge limits of that other site's member are legendary, let's just say. I'm not bashing him, either--he did well enough without assistance.

S.R.Custom
07-21-2010, 09:46 PM
If you want reduced loads in 30/30 or 30-06 Unique is a much better choice with lead bullets. It's faster but develops less pressure...

That's a good one. I'd be willing to bet that Unique has blown up more guns than 2400...

Don McDowell
07-21-2010, 09:52 PM
There's better choices and there's worse, but 2400 is never a bad choice for cast in rifle cartridges.
What some of these experts don't know is that 2400 got its name from the fact it was the first powder that got the 22 hornet to 2400 fps....

jh45gun
07-21-2010, 10:12 PM
That is interesting to know Don. Imashooter yea 17 grains is not listed in most load books but guys here and other places on the web have endorsed it as a good load. The # 42 lyman book list a max of 16 grains for a 170 bullet and 20 grains for a 165 grain hollow point? I forget my weights on my bullets off hand and I have all of them loaded so I cannot weigh any but they weigh less than 180 grains due to the alloy. I do know I show no pressure signs and the primers look good.

76 WARLOCK
07-21-2010, 10:28 PM
I too use 24gr 2400 in the 45/70 and the Gould boolit.

Don McDowell
07-21-2010, 11:20 PM
Quote from the Speer #7 reloading manual, a section on loading obsolete cartridges written by George Nonte
" I start with a charge of 2400 that is at least 25% but no more than 30 % of the weight of the original bp load.
"at no time should the charge be carried past the 45% of the bp charge with 2400..."
Probably two thirds of these internet experts that scream you shouldn't use 2400 in a rifle cartridge weren't even a gleam in their daddy's eye when that was written.:bigsmyl2:
15 grs of 2400 with 150 gr bullets (cast or jacketed) in a 30-30 has served me well on many occasions. Same load is also a nice plinker with 150-180's in a 35 remington.

crabo
07-22-2010, 12:37 AM
What is the velocity of 24 grains of 2400 with the 405 boolit from a guidegun and how does it compare to 40 of IMR 3031 with the same boolit?

Thanks,

jh45gun
07-22-2010, 02:08 AM
What is the velocity of 24 grains of 2400 with the 405 boolit from a guidegun and how does it compare to 40 of IMR 3031 with the same boolit?

Thanks,

No idea just going by the book Lyman #47 They list a bullet that weighs 400 grains that was made specifically for the lever guns according to the book. Due to the straight WW alloy I use my Lee 405 grain bullets weigh 395 grains. So that factors in even being a bit safer with the powder charge I am using. According to the book this 400 grain bullet using 24.6 grains of 2400 will have a velocity of 1497 and a Pressure C.U.P. of 26300. 40 grains of 3031 would be a lot lower as the loads start out at 41.5 and has vel of 1414 and a C.U.P. of 15,700 but even the Max load of 49 grains of 3031 has a vel of 1715 and a cup the same as the 2400 load 26,300

gon2shoot
07-22-2010, 05:25 AM
25 gr. of 240 gets me around 1400 fps, with a 405 gr. boolit in the 45-70.

MtGun44
07-22-2010, 07:04 AM
Once misread a table, loaded a WAY,WAY hotter load than 25 gr 2400 (so far I would
never admit to it!) under 400 cast. Sticky extraction on the first one, so the idiot (me) tries
another with same results. Fortunately the lightbulb lit and I decided to pull down some
loads and recheck. HOLY ******* !!!

Marlin was fine. Both Elmer and PO Ackley said you would have a lot of trouble blowing
up a lever gun working up in reasonable steps because they stop extracting long before
they blow up. Of course, if you make a big enough jump you can certainly get a kaboom.
The point is if the extraction is not sticky, you are probably OK.

I know that a WHOLE bunch more 2400 will not blow up a Marlin 45-70.

Bill

imashooter2
07-22-2010, 08:05 AM
-snip-

I know that a WHOLE bunch more 2400 will not blow up a Marlin 45-70.

Bill

I disagree. You don't know that it will not blow up any Marlin .45/70, you only know that it did not blow up that particular rifle.

BABore
07-22-2010, 09:46 AM
Marlin leverguns in 45-70 and 450 Marlin are rated around 42,500 psi give or take. Cartridges that operate in that pressure range, in a rear locking bolt system, DO NOT EXHIBIT PRESSURE SIGNS LIKE A BOLT ACTION RIFLE AT 50+kpsi. If you get sticky extraction or a flattened primer, you are already well over pressure. I've seen the pressure data from loads myself and another fella were doing in the 450 Marlin. He was sending in test samples to Hodgdon's labs. What the lab showed as max pressure, I was shooting 1-2 grains over and likely in the 46-47kpsi range. I had almost no primer flattening, easy extraction, and CHE & PRE within norms. Stick to the manuals.

MtGun44
07-22-2010, 05:05 PM
Agree fully. Sticky extraction is a very serious sign of overpressure regardless of what
the primer looks like or anything else. If you are working up in small steps, stop and
step back a few if you get sticky extraction. This 'feature', if understood can protect
you from continuing to increase powder if the primers "look OK". Primers are not a reliable
pressure indicator at all.

Bill

missionary5155
07-22-2010, 05:26 PM
Greetings
Glancing through my Lyman cast Boolit manual there is a 2400 load in every bullet weight given. they used a Marlin model 1895 22" barrel. The 405 load was 22.5 for 1240 fps up to 28.5 at 1510 fps. I use 2400 in my Marlins and they keep on ticking...
I would trust Lyman and remember everyone has an opinion whether it is based on facts or not.
I shoot 2400 in all my rifles and still have my mug in one piece... bought my first center fire 45 years ago.

jh45gun
07-22-2010, 05:55 PM
Well this load is in the Marlin section which of course is in the middle of the load books so I doubt I have to do any worrying about sticky extraction.

w30wcf
07-23-2010, 08:26 AM
Interestingly back in 1898 L&R introduced "Sharpshooter" powder. It was a perforated disc dense type smokeless powder developed specifically for the .45-70and was used in .45-70 factory loaded cartridges up into the 1950's.

What powder is closest to it in burning rate these days.....it is 2400. :Fire:

w30wcf

MGySgt
07-23-2010, 09:58 AM
OK I posted at an other forum about my model 95 in 45/70 and mentioned my load was 24 grains of 2400 with a 405 grain cast bullet. I got this rebuttle after I had posted I use 2400 for all my cast bullet loads I use 17 grains for the 30/30 with a 180 grain cast bullet also and use that same bullt in my 06 (20 grains of 2400) and for my K31 same load as the 06.

Well, it's your face. 2400 is a slow pistol powder, it can be used in the .30 carbine. It makes for a very, very fast rifle powder. If you want reduced loads in 30/30 or 30-06 Unique is a much better choice with lead bullets. It's faster but develops less pressure. For the 45-70 use black powder or a substitute for reduced loads. We don't allow powder load wights because typo's are common.


So now I am wondering is 2400 a Good choice I always figured it was.

Your answer is here in many replies - the Lyman Reloading manual has listed 2400 in just about every rifle cartridge in thier manual.

So why does this individual thing it is a bad rifle powder (with cast or J)? Doesn't he read his manuals?

jh45gun
07-24-2010, 01:23 AM
Don't know I just joined that forum

Newtire
07-25-2010, 07:26 PM
I used 25 gr of it with a 250 gr. in the .444. No sign s of pressure at all.

jh45gun
07-25-2010, 10:04 PM
I used 25 gr of it with a 250 gr. in the .444. No sign s of pressure at all.
Well that sounds reasonable because that bullet is a lot lighter I am using 395 grain bullet with 24 grains of powder but same result no signs of pressure or sticky extraction which there should not be as this is in the moderate loading section of the manuals.

Yaak
07-25-2010, 10:57 PM
2400 is one of my all time favorite powders. I use it in the 357 mag and I love it for 45-70. I see one load listed here for 24 grains with the 330 grain Gould bullet. I know that you need to keep the speed down with that bullet for it to work it's best. Does anyone use a higher powder charge with it than 24 grains?

Yaak

Marine Sgt 2111
07-26-2010, 01:07 AM
10.0 grains over a 120gr gcfp for the .32-20 is tough to beat.:drinks:

Ole
07-26-2010, 01:29 AM
I've used Alliant 2400 in my 450 Marlin GG with 425 gr RD bullets and have been really happy with the results. Use 20 grains of 2400, 1/2 a grain of poly fill, and no gas check. Perfect 50-75 yard plinking bullet with almost no noticeable recoil. This load runs about 1250fps out of my 18.5" GG.

Snapping Twig
07-28-2010, 12:57 PM
I'd use it in a heartbeat.

Here's my story FWIW.

I have two loads for my .44 mag and I use them in my 1894 with great success.

One load is a magnum, in it I use 22g W296 under a cast 265g GCSWC. Fantastic cartridge! Accurate and @ 1700fps at the muzzle.

My other load is a "useful special" to quote EK at @ 900fps from my revolvers. This load is somewhere @ 1100fps at the muzzle of the 1894. What powder? W231.

I use a cast 250g Keith over 7g W231 and it performs flawlessly. Sort of like an old BP round without the smoke. Soft shooting, accurate and hard hitting.

With knowledge and caution, working up to any load, you can use most powders within their sphere of operation. Using a fast powder for a light load, a medium powder for a medium load and a slow powder for a hot load. Leave these parameters and you take a risk.

EDK
07-28-2010, 09:00 PM
Horror stories abound with almost any powder. You have to weight the pros and cons...and consider the source in a lot of cases.

I like 2400 in rifle specific loads in my 357 and 44 MARLIN Cowboy rifles. It isn't bad in 30/30 or 45/70 either. Other powders can be better, but 2400 (or 4227 or 5744) is a good choice for a limited inventory of powders and multiple calibers.

I use a lot of HP38(231) and TITEGROUP in 357 and 44 target/mid range loads in "my herd of VAQUEROS" since I have the luxury of shooting daily in my backyard range. I have also used UNIQUE, HERCO and RED DOT. There are a lot more choices now than 40+ years ago when I started reloading.

:Fire::castmine::redneck:

jh45gun
07-28-2010, 11:00 PM
Thats why I used it because I can use it for different calibers for cast shooting its miserly in its weight per charge for what it does and it is accurate.

MGySgt
07-29-2010, 08:49 AM
Yes there are a lot of new powders out there - but they don't have the versitility of 2400 where you can load full bore or mid range and get excellent accuracy.

jlchucker
08-02-2010, 09:14 AM
2400 has always been my choice for two of my leverguns. But both are 44 mag leverguns. One is a 24 inch EMF rifle, the other a 16 inch Winnie trapper. The loads that I long since worked up for other (rifle) calibers are with other powders. Never tried 2400 in them.

KirkD
08-03-2010, 01:03 PM
2400 has a burn rate that is in the same neighbourhood as FFg. For the same bullet weight and velocity, it will produce approximately the same peak pressure. So, if a fellow is shooting a vintage Winchester 1886 or 100-year old Marlin 1895, 2400 is safe to use for the same ballistics produced by black powder. Modern firearms will be stronger and can take higher pressures/more 2400/higher velocities with 2400. For fellows shooting 100 year-old guns, you may find that 2400 bumps a soft cast bullet up sweetly to give excellent accuracy, as opposed to the slower burning IMR 3031.

Just Duke
08-05-2010, 05:04 AM
Chris Hodgden disuded me from 2400 to 4198.

KirkD
08-05-2010, 10:55 AM
IMR 4198 is actually my powder of choice for the 45-70, primarily because it fills the case better and gives more consistent burning (lower E.S.). I like 2400, however, because of its higher pressure spike, obturating the bullet better. A good compromise is IMR SR4759, which has a burn rate closer to 2400, but because of its hollow cylindrical grains, has more bulk per weight, filling the case better than 2400. For smaller levergun cartridges, such as the 44-40 or 38-40, 2400 is my powder of choice.

358 Win
08-09-2010, 09:39 PM
Use 2400 in cast bullet loads in my Marlin 1894C, Marlin 336SC in 30-30, Marlin 336SC in .32 Special, Marlin 336C in .35 Remington, two Model 94 Winchesters in .32 Special, two .308's, two
30-06's, three .358 Winchesters, all my cast handgun loads. Am I afraid of 2400, heck no. Just do
my reloading with caution following the safety rules and pay attention to detail!!!!
358 Win

jh45gun
08-09-2010, 10:55 PM
I am not afraid of it either just posting what that one guy said and was wondering if I was missing something. I know C. (ED) Harris talks highly of it and that was enough for me to try it and get hooked on it.

Beaverhunter2
08-09-2010, 10:58 PM
It's way less than what you guys are talking about, but I use 22.0 gr of 2400 under the Lee 405 PB for my "plinking" load in my .450 Marlin. I get about 1150fps and one ragged hole for 5 shot groups at 50yds. A slightly larger ragged hole at 100.

...and I may be ugly, but that had nothing to do with ka-booms.

John

MGySgt
08-10-2010, 08:02 AM
Just do my reloading with caution following the safety rules and pay attention to detail!!!!358 Win

Amen

Stay inside the rules

358 Win
08-18-2010, 09:27 PM
Burn 2400 powder by the bucket full. 95% of it is burned in lever action cast bulet loads. If 2400 was dangerous to use in lever actions, Lyman would not have listed loads for it in their cast bullet handbook. Still got my ugly mug attached and in one piece after burning kegs of it.
358 Win

Buckshot
08-20-2010, 02:13 AM
............Last week it worked really well in my Jap Winchester M92 in 45 Colt. Using a Lee 457-340F sized to .454" over 17.0 grs of 2400.

.............Buckshot

MakeMineA10mm
08-20-2010, 11:05 AM
OK I posted at an other forum about my model 95 in 45/70 and mentioned my load was 24 grains of 2400 with a 405 grain cast bullet. I got this rebuttle after I had posted I use 2400 for all my cast bullet loads I use 17 grains for the 30/30 with a 180 grain cast bullet also and use that same bullt in my 06 (20 grains of 2400) and for my K31 same load as the 06.

Well, it's your face. 2400 is a slow pistol powder, it can be used in the .30 carbine. It makes for a very, very fast rifle powder. If you want reduced loads in 30/30 or 30-06 Unique is a much better choice with lead bullets. It's faster but develops less pressure. For the 45-70 use black powder or a substitute for reduced loads. We don't allow powder load wights because typo's are common.


So now I am wondering is 2400 a Good choice I always figured it was.

That's hysterical, because on another forum, I got grief for suggesting Unique to someone and another poster said Unique was dangerous because it was too fast, compared to 2400! Sounds like we ought to get that expert from your forum and the other guy from my forum together, and see who comes out alive... :veryconfu

The bottom line is that both Unique and 2400 are good powders, and there's a lot of bad information from half-experts. Unique and 2400 can be loaded to develop the exact same (max) chamber pressure. The difference is that 2400 burns slower, which produces the pressure over a longer pressure curve, which will give it a higher velocity than the Unique load, but it doesn't mean either one of them will "take off your face..." Now, if he wanted to suggest a bad load from low-load density with a powder like H-110/W296, I'd agree with him, but 2400 can and has been used in reduced loads for a long time...