OK, I'm Trying...

[Markbo]

.... what exactly does fluxing DO? I am beggining to understand that a lot of different 'organic' matierals can be used... but for what? What is fluxing?

[gray wolf]

OK, I'm Trying...

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.... what exactly does fluxing DO? I am beggining to understand that a lot of different 'organic' matierals can be used... but for what? What is fluxing?
We have covered this topic at least 3 times in the past few weeks. If you do a search I think you will find a lot of info.
To all my brother casters I think we need to have some kind of sticky on this.
It is coming up more and more and takes a lot of energy to keep answering the same question over and over.
Sam

[Firebricker]

Markbo, The quick answer is it bring's the stuff you don't want to the surface to be skimmed off. There is a lot more detailed specific's of what it does but that will get you started.

If you can get a hold of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook it has wealth of info on fluxing and everthing abought casting. I use Marveflux from Brownell's if I'm indoors and sawsust or just stir with a rough cut piece of wood. Good luck FB

[462]

Glen Fryxell has an excellent fluxing article. Also, it re-combines the oxides back into the alloy. Some members put cat litter on top of their melt...I think that would eliminate the oxides from forming...maybe?

[captaint]

Markbo - That excellent Glen Fryxell atricle is at the LASC webiste. enjoy Mike

[gray wolf]

Glen Fryxell has an excellent fluxing article.

+ 1 on that article, I couldn't think of his name. It's a very good read.
I was not trying to be UN-helpful in my other post.

Sam

[405]

Markbo,
Read the thread on "what not to do" with fluxing. Like don't take the janitor's word about an aerospace technical issue :) or a couple of old frt bsers down at the range or gun shop! Like heat up a pot full of lead to full temp on an open stove then throw in a big glob of hog taller, bullet lube, wax, or axle grease :shock:

The best advice has been brought up about reading a few sources. Usually can't go wrong with "PUBLISHED", reviewed and time tested info like Lyman. I use very small amounts of flux once I've got my cruddy stuff pretty much refined into good clean ingots. For most casting, when using the fluxed, cleaned ingots I heat up the pot to 700-800 F. Stir and scrape the pot briskly with a hardwood dowel (that is the flux). Scrape off the dross. Begin casting. If at the pot for a long time will repeat the stir and scrape with the dowel and the skimming maybe once or twice an hour during the casting session. I would imagine a small quantity of sawdust or couple of small wood chips will do about the same thing.

I don't use Marvelux except when working with the BIG pot and source lead/alloys when melting and mixing for a certain alloy that will be poured into ingots and marked. Once I have those clean ingots I use very little fluxing as described above. I've found that while Marvelux is a good flux for the BIG original melting, mixing and cleaning it has a bad habit of being extremely hygroscopic. Any metal that is exposed to Marvelux will either rust or gather moisture quicky from simple humidity or changes in temperature in your storage or casting area. During the winter that is an invitation for a visit from the tinsel fairy.

[oldtoolsniper]

The TINSEL FAIRY is not your friend. When she comes it is rather sudden and unexpected. Your melt is somewhere in the 650-700 degree range and you add lead that in some way shape or form has water trapped in it. If the water stays on the surface it sizzles and steams, if it goes below the surface that same steam causes an eruption of molten lead to shoot from your pot it looks like tinsel and burns like napalm. Napalm sticks to kids, pets wives, girlfriends, you and everything else it comes into contact with! Safety first!

AVOID THE TINSEL FAIRY!

[Markbo]

Got it. I've read Glen's article and will get the Lyman book out. Now if I have remembered correctly, i should not cast from the same pot I smelt in. First I have to smelt the WW and big pieces of lead I have into ingots.

How do I choose or know or control what alloy (hardness) those will be? Or is that something I just worry about when I re-melt smaller quantities to actually cast? I know I should have a target hardness depending on estimated velocity and have worked with that handloading bought cast bullets for sixguns, but do I control that at smelting or at the casting stage?

Thanks for explanation on the tinsel fairy. I have read it often and wondered what it was. Now on a rare day off I am going dollar storing to see if can find some basics for smelting.

[82nd airborne]

I use mainly ww and pure, and i never flux, ww seem to be dirty enough to flux themselves. maybe its the twice chewed copenhagen?

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

fluxing???? what's that??? Am I missing something here?? :lol:

[405]

Markbo,
I think you are taking the right approach. Kudos.

There's no set rule about from which pot you cast from. I've just found it easier and better to use my large "smelting" pot to clean, flux and mix whatever my desired alloy is, pour that into ingots and mark the ingots with a metal stamp for storage. Samples during the initial "smelting" are taken regularly to check for desired BHN hardness. If I'm working with something like mixing WWs with pure lead where I don't know the exact %s of tin and antimony in the WWs I will work toward a target BHN hardness. In such a case I will mark those ingots with the BHN number--- say 12. If I am working with a known quantity of tin added to a known quantity of pure lead I will mark that on the ingots--- say 40-1 (meaning lead to tin ratio).

My pure lead (or near pure lead) ingots I simply mark 6.

The tinsel fairy can be caused by many things.... usually plunging anything that has moisture in it or on it into hot lead.... be it a casting utensil, piece of scrap lead or even an ingot that has been stored and gotten wet. The steam is the propellant.... the spray of molten lead is the ejecta! I found out that even water vapor absorbed into something like Marvelux or Marvelux residue will amplify the effect. Like a ladle, that was used for casting weeks earlier where the melt was fluxed with Marvelux, will carry enough moisture to cause the eruption. Seems to happen mostly during the winter where there are large swings of temp.

By using the pre-mixed and cleaned and fluxed ingots for casting I've found that very small amounts of flux is need during casting and minimizes the tinsel fairy potential. Periodic stirring, scraping with the wooden dowel then skimming seems to yield good casting results while avoiding the build up of the flux residue on the casting utensils.

[fredj338]

I use mainly ww and pure, and i never flux, ww seem to be dirty enough to flux themselves. maybe its the twice chewed copenhagen?

Try this; when smelting ww, drop in a tsp full of sawudst & stir. See how much cleaner the clips are when you pull them out. That is the flux working to remove all the elements from the steel & return it to the melt. I think fluxing makes final casting much easier, fewer rejects & more uniform results.

[geargnasher]

Short version:

"Smelt" or render your scrap in large batches, 50 lbs or more if you can, not in your casting pot.

Fluxing is a misnomer. We reduce (the chemical term) the oxidized metal scum back into the melt by using some kind of organic substance to char and supply carbon to the oxide which causes a reduction reaction that, in essence, de-oxidizes the oxides and puts them back into their elemental state. This saves boolit metal, cleans the surface of the dull oxide scum, and improves the alloy.

Cleaning is a process of putting something in the smelting pot that absorbs impurities like rust powder, calcium dust, and dirt/grit. Sawdust is great because it both creates reducing carbon and absorbent ash in which we can gather the fine impurities when we skim the melt.

I use old oil or diesel and light it when smelting, then finish with a handfull of sawdust after the big chunks are skimmed off.

I clean the alloy in my casting pot by stirring with a DRY maple stick which charrs a little and reduces oxides, then I skim with a spoon until shiny.

Just my way, I think everyone has their own favorite thing to recommend.

Gear

[82nd airborne]

Try this; when smelting ww, drop in a tsp full of sawudst & stir. See how much cleaner the clips are when you pull them out. That is the flux working to remove all the elements from the steel & return it to the melt. I think fluxing makes final casting much easier, fewer rejects & more uniform results.

Ill do that, my dad owns a sawmill, now if i can just find some sawdust somewhere.......

[qajaq59]

Just my way, I think everyone has their own favorite thing to recommend. I'll say. You could fill a 300 page book with the different variations that we all use to get to the same place.

And I like Gray Wolf's idea of a sticky explaining why we do flux. That way a very explicit explanaton could be typed just once and the new guys would get a more complete explanation in one shot. No pun intended.

[Heavy lead]

Man, you guys ruin everything, I thought the Tinsel Fairy was who visited at Festivus..................................

Seriously though, been lucky, since I don't smelt (time forbids it, or at least doesn't make it economical sense for now) fluxing already clean lead does release some impurities, but more importantly released surface tension, if I recall correctly Fryxell's great fluxing article touches on this as well, good read. It's apparent when you flux the melt, the Lee dripomatic goes from no drip domed top to a drippy drip drip with a flat top on the melt, she'll pour good boolits then, fill every little nook and cranny too.

[Recluse]

I'll say. You could fill a 300 page book with the different variations that we all use to get to the same place.

And I like Gray Wolf's idea of a sticky explaining why we do flux. That way a very explicit explanaton could be typed just once and the new guys would get a more complete explanation in one shot. No pun intended.

+1 on the idea of a sticky thread on fluxing. Maybe combine several of the better discussions about fluxing into one large one, then make it a sticky?

Fluxing, after all, is THE start of the whole casting process. Yeah, you can buy pre-made formed ingots (what fun is that?), but it never hurts to ensure that even those ingots are clean and free of impurities.

There are so many different lead sources out there that fluxing during the smelt/render is essential.

A good "base discussion" in the alloys forum would make for a good sticky.

:coffee: