dont listen to old guys

[craveman85]

i was talking to a few guys at a gun shop about casting bullets. i had an old guy tell me i needed flux to get good rounds and that i should drop in a WHOLE tea light candle per 10lbs of lead. well i have a camp stove with a pot i can melt 20lbs of lead in. well im glad that it was cool outside and i didnt make my ingots in my garage like i usually do. i dropped in 2 tea lights and started stirring. my head is now shaved but not by choice. neighbors called the fire department and the chief lives 2 houses away so he was able to show up when my hair was still smoking. luckily i have my eyebrows.

[thx997303]

That's what happens when you don't take precautions.

What did you think a petroleum based wax would do when heated?

I quite frequently use whole tea lights in fluxing. Yes they flare up, but with a little precaution, things can be safe.

ALWAYS take steps before smelting to insure you wont catch anything on fire.

And, it's not the old guys fault. You made a mistake.

Learn from it and move on.

Have you fluxed with wax before?

[scrapcan]

I bet you have nice clean lead though. There could be several things that happened.

Did you happen to ask if there could be any side effects or issues of flame versus electric melter? Something on the order of fumes being lit by fire that would not be lit by electric melter? or making sure the wax melted on top of the lead before stirring in as a flux.

I will bet you can offer that sage advice to the next young guy you talk to.

[Tom-ADC]

Old age and treachery will overcome youth and enthusiasm everytime!!:kidding:

Just kidding of course, glad your okay..

[Trey45]

It wasn't the wax, it was water in your lead, either a sweat drop or your candle had water on it. I'm surprised you were able to shave your head, what with all those 3rd degree burns you must have......

[thx997303]

Trey, wax gives off a relatively large flame when ignited.

I don't think he had a tinsel fairy episode. I think he burned off all his hair.

Kinda like lighting gasoline isn't it?

[fishhawk]

i don't think he was visited by the tinsel fairy sounds more like the wax fumes lit off! steve k

[Trey45]

Jer I've used a lot of wax for flux, rarely get a flame like that. Regardless, blaming someone else for his own mistake just doesn't sit well with me.

[Trey45]

Steve did I say it was impossible? I said it rarely happened to me, that's all....
When I render ww into ingots I use a gas fired turkey fryer and a 4 quart dutch oven and flux with wax, I can't recall a single time I had a fireball big enough to singe off all my hair. And even if i did, I wouldn't come to a public forum and blame my own mistake on "old guys".

[diehard]

Sorry about the new hair cut.....but if not for the "old guys" who else is going to teach the rest of us about casting? Me, I listen intently, sometimes take notes, and ask lots of questions. Thank the Good Lord for the "old guys" in this world!

[303Guy]

If you haven't used wax as a flux before and an experienced 'old guy' confidently tells you to use plenty of like that's how he's done it all his life, what's to alert a poor fellow that it's gonna surprize him with a hair burning burst of flame? The 'old guy' should indeed have given an appropriate warning with his advice! Wouldn't y'all have? (I wish I had been warned of the sudden burst of flame!:shock: In an electric pot!) Anyway, the 'old guy' would have long forgotten about his first burst of flame.[smilie=1:

[craveman85]

the old guy said he uses a camp stove as well. he didnt tell me it would flare up he said just dont breath in the smoke. ive cast sinkers for years but never used flux since they didnt need to be high quality. after i did it i watched some youtube videos on fluxing with some catching on fire in electric pots too. flames were 3-5 feet high and the wind had switched towards me right before it lit. luckily my eyebrows were untouched because of my saftey glasses.

[Guesser]

In reading about casting in several older publications I've seen where they actually recommended burning off the hot gases and then extracting the dross. So what happened is actually a highly commendable occurrence handled incorrectly. Let's see; Do we call OSHA or MSHA? Or maybe the fire chief already took care of that!

[leadman]

I'm just glad the OP was not injured too badly, hope more to his pride than physical.
The good part is he might ask more questions now before doing something. The fact that he posted the event on here is good because this is the place he needs to get his advice from.

Enough people post on here that if one is given a questionable answer it will be corrected by others here. This is the only place I trust to get solid advice.

[waksupi]

Strange. I have used wax, sawdust, and used motor oil to flux. Never have I had a flame more than a few inches higher than the top of the pot. I recommend you not use gasoline in the future for fluxing!

;o)

[44man]

That is funny! :mrgreen:
I use a hunk of wax smaller then a peanut and WANT it to ignite to keep smoke down in the garage. Flames are maybe 3 to 4" high. If the lead is not hot enough yet, I poke the propane torch at it.

[RKJ]

The one time I put candle wax in my Lee pot as I was making bullets, just a small piece (well it looked small to me) darn near caught my rafters on fire. (I cast in my basement/Garage and smelt outside) I've learned a LOT from you guys here but didn't think for a second and it got a little too exciting. I've had some pretty high flames smelting too, though. Anyway a lesson learned and a good story for the OP (and me). Of course it will most likely seem funnier after his hair grows back. :)

[fredj338]

i was talking to a few guys at a gun shop about casting bullets. i had an old guy tell me i needed flux to get good rounds and that i should drop in a WHOLE tea light candle per 10lbs of lead. well i have a camp stove with a pot i can melt 20lbs of lead in. well im glad that it was cool outside and i didnt make my ingots in my garage like i usually do. i dropped in 2 tea lights and started stirring. my head is now shaved but not by choice. neighbors called the fire department and the chief lives 2 houses away so he was able to show up when my hair was still smoking. luckily i have my eyebrows.

Trust but verify. Even "experts" get it wrong sometimes.:groner: I've used wax before, still do if it's around, but sawdust works fine. 40# of metal only needs about a large pea size or small peanut size chunk of wax.

[ilcop22]

I use broken up whole candles and parafin for fluxing. 9 times out of 10 I get a fireball that is a good 6-12" at first and lasts for quite a bit. That said, though, I use a lot of precautions including eye protection, leather gloves, a long slotted (metal) spoon and I stay clear of the fireball. ;) I melt down my lead/tin/WWs in a stainless steel pot over a butane flame camping grill and never use large amounts of wax, which is usually where I get the bigun fireballs. The pot I cast from will flame up on occasion, but not to the aforementioned degree.

I had a neighbor once who I spotted kept looking over at me. Finally he came over and said, "Alright, now I gotta know what you're doing." I taught him the basics of casting and finished a good session.

[deerslayer]

so you don't think that using a camp stove to melt it down would not ignite the fumes? i could see it being hard to do with a electric pot but a camp stove will ignite wax fumes. steve k

It was not necessarily the flame of the stove that ignited the wax it was the heat from the lead. The flashpoint of paraffin is 400-500 degrees F depending on composition of wax. Typically molten lead depending on alloys is around 600 degrees fahrenheit+. So when the wax hit its flashpoint it ignited and if there was alot of surface heat in the pot compared to the amount of wax used this can be a very quick reaction.

That is the short answer without discussing the actual pyrolysis process that happens in combustion.

[Bass Ackward]

A neighbor said that he was getting rope burns on his hands ropin cattle through leather gloves. I assumed he was joking with me so I told him he could always tie the rope around his waist. We both laughed, so I figured he knew it was a joke. WRONG!

Could of made JackA$$ TV. He got a free trip from the top of the hill to the run, through brier patches, timber falls and eventually mud. Broke both arms and two fingers on one hand. Scratched and swollen so bad that nobody recognized him for two weeks.

Always evaluate everything for common sense.

[thx997303]

Trey, I agree, blaming ones own mistake on some "old guy" is completely wrong.

It appears from his own post, the OP was aware that wax burns like that.

All the more reason NOT to blame others.

It was clearly a lack of judgement on his part.

[qajaq59]

Now I remember why I use saw dust............

I'm glad you had sense enough to have glasses on. Otherwise you wouldn't be typing. Hair grows back, eyeballs don't.

[jlchucker]

Sorry about the new hair cut.....but if not for the "old guys" who else is going to teach the rest of us about casting? Me, I listen intently, sometimes take notes, and ask lots of questions. Thank the Good Lord for the "old guys" in this world!

I still have all of my own hair because I paid close attention to a bald headed old guy when I first started casting. He fluxed with parrafin wax (the same stuff they sell in grocery stores). It smokes, then bursts into flame. Why do you think the old mountain men told young-un's to "Watch yer topknot"? :castmine:

[wills]

1. Flux can/will/usually does/ flame up. We often forget to mention this.
2. When haunting the garage sales for cast iron cookware to use for melting pots and ingot molds, consider buying a lid to cover the pot, should the flames from the flux begin to get out of hand.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

I use wax and have found it to flash if I wait too long to start fluxing. I am just getting started at casting and have a lot to learn. I thank the OP for letting others know about what to expect. I am trying not to learn from the school of hard knocks. There can be quite a few things go wrong that a new guy just doesn't know. I started to pick up a full cast iron pot of melted lead and found that it tips quite easily. If I had done it quickly, I would have spilled the whole thing. I don't pick it up anymore. I think I might start a thread about what not to do.

[frankenfab]

You mean we have found something that's "NOT so easy a caveman can do it?":bigsmyl2:








Seriously, glad you are ok.

[qajaq59]

I started to pick up a full cast iron pot of melted lead and found that it tips quite easily.
Oh man, NEVER, ever do that.


New guys take note please!

[RP]

Well its like this a pot full of lead with melted wax on fire dont burn high but if you are stirring it when it lights up wax is on what every your stirring it with exposeing wax surface which gives more flames. Or you can say a bucket with gas in it light it just burns the top kick it and you got a huge fire ball. And I dont care what the others say it was the OLD MANS FAULT hes laughing his ass off everytime he sees your new haircut.

[Buckshot]

..............Well craveman85, the only thing I can say is you're a brave man for posting the experience, and we're ALL thankfull that you're okay an not in some hospital. Since you are okay lets pretend everyone is laughing WITH you.

................Buckshot

[Mk42gunner]

[QUOTE=RKJ;950656]...didn't think for a second and it got a little too exciting... /QUOTE]

Isn't this the way most "adventures" really start?

As opposed to fairy tales- "Once upon a time," or sea stories- "This ain't no &$*^."


Robert

[mooman76]

I guess he figured it was so easy even a craveman could do it!

Sorry about that, it was stairing me in the face, I had to use it.

[casterofboolits]

I use reject bullets lubed with Magma lube to flux my pots. Seems to have a much higher flash point than candles, etc. No fire balls and fluxes well!

[oldtoolsniper]

I thought true adventures started with " Hold my beer and watch this" . Perhaps there is an advantage to male pattern baldness.

[geargnasher]

I never have this problem because I pour a cup of diesel oil in the dutch oven with the lead scrap to be melted down and set that on fire before I light the burner. When the diesel's done burning, it's time to stir, skim, and pour the ingots!

Gear

[Bret4207]

Well, this is one more reason to go with simply stirring your melt with a stick. No flames. I used to flux with paraffin canning wax 'cuz that's what used to be recommended. Lots of smoke and flame, never caught anything on fire though. THe dry stick method avoids all that.

Give him a break guys, lesson learned.

[Moonie]

Down here in the south it's "Hey y'all, wachis"

[ghh3rd]

One thing that newcomers to 'smelting' should be cautioned about is the tendency for wax vapors to flare up suddenly. Early on I nearly flung lead from the pot, because even though I was prepared for the flame, it still took me by surprise and I jumped enough to slosh some lead over the side of the pot.

Now I ignite it on purpose to avoid jumping.

I only use a piece of wax about the size of a small marble and get a nice ball of fire -- must be a real bonfire with a whole candle!

Randy

[Larry Gibson]

I'm not sure what "old" plays in this scenario. Many "old guys" know a lot and have learned a lot over the years. If you don't listen to them you're destined to relearn (many tmes the hard way) the things they know. With that said let me say there is a lot of people with inability to learn or who fail to learn (I'm being PC here for the terms "ignorant" and "stupid" and I'm not referring to anyone on this thread). In this case the old guy probably thought he was correct and ment only help in his advise. The same advise could very well have come from a "young guy". The point is; advise is only worth what you pay for it. It is incumbant on each of us to research or cross reference any advise before using it. In some cases such advise is not harmful but in reloading and casting bullets with molten alloys serious consequences can result, obviously. I don't think "old" has anything to do with it. In my younger years I learned a lot of things about life including casting bullets and reloading from "old guys". Some of it was bogus but that was to be expected. I still learn a lot from "old guys" and younger ones too. If you want to stop listening to "old guys" the road will be much longer traveled and with many detours. Just my opinion and others opinions may and probably do vary.

Larry Gibson

[madsenshooter]

I can picture this, in fact I've lived it. When I was young, very young, I wanted to see what was in a bleach bottle, struck a match over it. It had gasoline in it, poof, lot of hair gone along with some eyebrows and lashes. I threw the offending bottle in the sulpher creek and watched as it went downsteam smoking. I was only a little embarrassed when I went to school, nobody else knew the rest of the story.

[qajaq59]

It is incumbant on each of us to research or cross reference any advise before using it. Yes sir, it sure is....... Especially if you start asking about loads as well as flux!!

[Uncle R.]

I use wax for flux - have been for many years. A marble-sized chunk will do a nice job on my 20 lb. pot - and I light the fumes on purpose so they don't get out of hand or surprise me with a fireball. As I stir in the molten and burning wax I'd estimate the flames go maybe 18-24 inches high. It's a pretty impressive little bonfire. I'd hate to throw in a whole dang candle...
Uncle R.

[405]

Lesson learned eh?
I never had a mentor or internet forum or access to much info at all when I first started. Maybe an old Ideal or Lyman manual. NEVER did I see anything about that much flux used in a pot! I remember reading in one of those manuals something like a pea-sized dab of flux in a small pot up to about twice that in a large pot. Likewise, usually not a good idea to invest based on the latest, surest, hot stock tip gleaned from the master bsers down at the local coffee shop either.

[ilcop22]

2. When haunting the garage sales for cast iron cookware to use for melting pots and ingot molds, consider buying a lid to cover the pot, should the flames from the flux begin to get out of hand.

Shouldn't you just pour water on it, or is that oil fires? [smilie=l:

[Char-Gar]

I am not familiar with the term "tea candle" so I don't know what it is. But I must assume you had way to much wax with resulting high flames.

So who is to blame? Do we blame the "old guy" who obviously didn't know what he was talking about? Or to be blame the fellow who took advise from an unknown and unconfirmed source?

You are ultimately responsible for your own safety. Reloading and bullet casting are fraught with dangers for the uninformed. If you don't know what you are doing, the MAKE CERTAIN your source of information is reliable, or pay the price. One of my pet peeves is uninformed folks coming to this and other internet forums and take advise from total strangers. There is a substantial amount of the blind leading the blind going on.

There are reliable printed sources of information and also reliable folks who can mentor a person until they get up to speed. It your skin, hair and life, you are responsible for you choice of information. I hate to sound harsh, but I get a little tired of folks blaming others for their choices.

[Char-Gar]

Pouring water directly on an oil or grease fire will often cause it to fame even higher. Take a wet towel and place it on the flame source and smother the flames. My step son who is Fire Marshall taught us this and it saved our house from a fire on the stove resulting from over heated olive oil. The same should apply from a flame up due to melting wax on a lead pot. A good lid will do the same thing.

[ghh3rd]

Shouldn't you just pour water on it, or is that oil fires?

Now, you see, this is clearly an example of someone joking. You must not pour water into your molten lead.

I just mentioned this in case that fella who was roping cattle is reading this :-)

[gray wolf]

Well men----THIS IS WHY-----

I jump all over the new folks that come on with the Questions like
Hey whats a good load for my fill in the blank
Or-hey how long should my bullet be
And other questions that should have been answered out of there books.
Every time that we fall victim to that we add to there inability to learn for themselves.
We are so eager to help that we give them the answer and just make them dumber.
It is also why I try to give as complete an answer as I can when asked a question, and many times people are in such a rush they can't stand to hear the whole answer.
I am sorry that this happened--very sorry. I hope that we continue to give the help in the future that we have given in the past.
We pat our selves on the back and also correct each other if we are wrong.
It didn't have to be an old guy giving the advise --it could have been anyone--it was bad advise, and the OP did not know enough about what was being done to see it was not sound advise. A simple thing like fluxing gone bad because of the lack of knowledge.
I hate to have to answer post like this.

Sam

[qajaq59]

Now, you see, this is clearly an example of someone joking. You must not pour water into your molten lead. I still think that there are times when people should skip looking to the internet and open the manuals. There are NO jokes in them.

[mooman76]

I am not familiar with the term "tea candle" so I don't know what it is. But I must assume you had way to much wax with resulting high flames..

Tea candles are those small candles that come in a little aluminum or plastic cup. About the size of a half dollar and a 1/2" thick.

[deerslayer]

Now, you see, this is clearly an example of someone joking. You must not pour water into your molten lead.

I just mentioned this in case that fella who was roping cattle is reading this :-)

Actually this was covered in another post and you can pour water on molten lead! It will just evaporate and cool your surface temp! Now if that water flashes to steam under the surface because you stirred it in or something then you will recieve a visit from the fairy.

As to doing this when it is on fire the wax will still continue to float and burn just on top of the water.:hijack:

[pjh421]

Pouring water directly on an oil or grease fire will often cause it to fame even higher. Take a wet towel and place it on the flame source and smother the flames. My step son who is Fire Marshall taught us this and it saved our house from a fire on the stove resulting from over heated olive oil. The same should apply from a flame up due to melting wax on a lead pot. A good lid will do the same thing.

I'll be sure to tell my family about this one. Flour or baking soda will smother a fire too. We'll be keeping a fire extinguisher in the kitchen from now on.

I used to use paraffin to flux with because I had a sheet of it about 12" x "24 and about 3" thick. That's like a lifetime supply for fluxing. I didn't care for the smoke and flame so I switched to the much-maligned Marvelux which works perfectly well.

Be careful out there. This is supposed to be fun.

Paul

[Bret4207]

We always keep the tight fitting lid for the particular pot we're suing close by when using hot oils in cooking. Smothers thing right quick and saves on cleanup.


Look guys, the "old guy" comment was probably just an attempt a humor that didn't go over so hot with all of us old guys. No biggy, he wasn't out to insult us.

[qajaq59]

Look guys, the "old guy" comment was probably just an attempt a humor that didn't go over so hot with all of us old guys. No biggy, he wasn't out to insult us. I agree. Plus by the time we get as old as I am our skin is likely as thick as an elephant anyway. I'm just glad he didn't get seriously hurt. And he did bring what could be a serious probem to the fore front so the newer guys will now think before they try it.

[Char-Gar]

PHJ421 .... I also have a fire extinguisher in the kitchen as well as another in the job. I also keep a couple of hand towels folded on the kitchen drain board. For us it is easier to stick one of the folded towels under the tap for second than it is to get the extinguished, pull the pin, aim and shoot. There is also less mess in the kitchen with the wet towel.

Over the years, I have used bullet lube, paraffin, beeswax, motor oil, candles, olive oil and probably several other items for flux. They all do the job, with more or less mess. There really is no great mystery to fluxing.

A couple of years back I bought a big box of fine pine shavings rich in pitch from Pat Marlin. A sprinkling of these on top of the melt works just fine with no mess. The five pound box I bought should last several lifetimes. Pine sawdust or stiring with a pine stick works just as well.

[ghh3rd]

Actually this was covered in another post and you can pour water on molten lead! It will just evaporate and cool your surface temp! Now if that water flashes to steam under the surface because you stirred it in or something then you will recieve a visit from the fairy.


I'd be afraid that the pouring would push water under the lead and the fair would appear. Sort of like the experiment where someone found that they could wet their finger and jab it into molten lead for a fraction of a second without injury. Neither are experiments that I will try any time soon.

[BD]

i was talking to a few guys at a gun shop about casting bullets.

Looks to me like that was the start of your troubles :)

I've heard many interesting facts about cast boolits in gun shops. I can't off hand remember one that was accurate.

BD

[Dannix]

i was talking to a few guys at a gun shop
First mistake. :groner: Seriously though, gun shops can be a heaven for mall ninjas and the less informed. I have to drive a good while to get to a gunshop where I don't mind chewing gun-geek cud, and it's mainly a gunsmith operation at that.

Looks like you're a new pup here. If you hang around here for long and any desire to learn at all, you'll quickly realize the 'old guys' around here have insight with its weight in gold. God bless the old timers here. :)

[Recluse]

If I read correctly, the old guy advised the original poster to toss ONE tealight candle in the alloy, but the OP stated he tossed TWO tealight candles in the alloy.

Hell, yeah, you're going to get some flames.

HOWEVER, the advice-giver should dang well have told the OP about the smoke, and how to light it off, and that there is a flashpoint, etc.

The old man advice-giver could also have told the OP about sawdust, used motor oil, etc etc being used as flux.

We're dealing with hot, molten lead here and this incident exemplifies just how careful we need to be when passing along advise and tips.

I'm glad craveman is okay and hate to hear how his first foray into casting was such a miserable experience.

:coffee:

[ilcop22]

I was, indeed just joking, gents. :D

One of the most magically ignorant, stupid things you can do is pour water on a grease/oil fire.

Since it was mentioned, a television show has tested both the finger in molten lead and water on a grease fire myth. Check the internet for those clips from the show "Mythbusters". Very interesting results. Here's a hint: You can stick a wet finger in one, and the other will explode. ;)

[9.3X62AL]

No blame game here--I'm just glad that Craveman is all right.

A classic example of how a little info can be a very dangerous thing, when more info was clearly required.

[wills]

I am not familiar with the term "tea candle" so I don't know what it is. But I must assume you had way to much wax with resulting high flames.

http://www.nexternal.com/armynavy/images/tea-light-candle1.jpg

One of these

[MtGun44]

The bleach bottle-match experiment was run by my brother many years ago. Looked
a bit funny with no eyebrow for a while and strange 'sunburn' on one side of his face.
Lucky the eye was fine. People sometimes put gas in bleach bottles, it turns out.

Bill

[SharpsShooter]

Well, this is one more reason to go with simply stirring your melt with a stick. No flames. I used to flux with paraffin canning wax 'cuz that's what used to be recommended. Lots of smoke and flame, never caught anything on fire though. THe dry stick method avoids all that.

Give him a break guys, lesson learned.

Ahh yup, do it that way myself. Sorry...had to snicker though..guffaw...chortle...ya'll scuse me.


POOF...NO EYEBROWS.


SS

[splattersmith]

Since I am an 'old guy" no sense in replying, you can't listen anyway.:redneck::-P