.45 ACP leading from seat and crimp same time?

[Mattog22]

I loaded up and shot my first cast boolits today at a local match. Things were good for the most part but after the match I realized I had a LOT of leading all the way through the barrel, not just at one end. So here is what I'm running

Air cooled WW
Lee 230 gr TL 6 cavity mold
3.7 gr of Clays

I am not sizing these since they seem to be dropping from the mold at .453. I used a 50/50 Alox and Mineral Spirits to lube.

I have a LFCD but was told not to use it so I am using RCBS dies. At the crimp/seat die I was only crimping just enough to get them to chamber, you could still see a slight bell. I was afraid of slimming down my bullet so I crimped the least possible. I still noticed every once in a while at the seating/crimp stage I would get a small sliver of lead, looked like a small half circle piece of hair. I am not sure what would be shaving this off since I don't think I have enough crimp as it is and I believe I am belling the case out enough. Is this something that can happen seating and crimping together no matter what? Is this possible the cause of the leading? I guess I could seat with the seater die and crimp a small amount with the FCD, or do I have to buy another standard crimp die?

[MtGun44]

The seat and crimp works best when there is a big crimp groove to slide the case
mouth into. With no crimp groove it WILL raise a ring of lead since you are still
moving the boolit when the brass is closing down. This will not be the cause of your
leading.

Once again - TL with alox is very marginal lube system. I am not surprised when
it doesn't work, I am surprised when it does work. Good luck.

Bill

[Mattog22]

I just read another thread about the expander die not expanding enough and causing the bullet to be sized down during seating so I guess i will pull a bullet and measure. Maybe I will try a little more Alox, I was hoping my velocities were low enough to get by with the TL system but maybe not.

[captaint]

Matt - What MtGun said. Make sure you're not pushing the boolit down when the crimp gets done. If you are not sure about case mouth flare, open it up just a little and see if that helps.
I do use the FCD and have no leading. I'm not crimping much (very little resistance), just enough so the cartridge drops flush with the barrel hood. Also, I do use LLA/JPW 50/50 with a little thinner. Works well for me and I shoot 4 or 5 different boolits in the 45's.
And MtGun - thanks for the rec on the DW Pointman. it's a real sweetheart!!! Glad I bought it!
enjoy Mike

[mpmarty]

I just read another thread about the expander die not expanding enough and causing the bullet to be sized down during seating so I guess i will pull a bullet and measure. Maybe I will try a little more Alox, I was hoping my velocities were low enough to get by with the TL system but maybe not.

Matt I drive that same 230gr T/L TC boolit over five grains of Red Dot for around 800 fps and get no leading whatsoever with Lee Liquid Alox and JPW mixed 50/50 with no thinner at all. Takes a bit of heat and agitation to mix them and then overnight or a few hours in the sun to dry them out enough to handle. Don't give up on LLA but try adding some JPW.

[Gohon]

I tumble lube everything which includes several rifles, pistols, and revolvers. It works very well and I've never had a issue of leading, even when pushing some of these loads to the 2300 plus fps. There is nothing marginal about TL if used properly. I've never understood why as cheap as a bottle of TL is and as long as a bottle will last, why some people cut their lube in half with mineral spirits. Would you cut your engine oil with mineral spirits so it would last longer or not smell like oil? I do add Johnsons Paste wax to my LLA because I believe it aids the product but I never dilute it with something that makes it thinner.

Ditto for the LFCD.......I have one for every caliber I load, including the 45 ACP. Despite what the naysayers say, it works and works well. There are always exceptions to the rule and in my case it was the 45 Colt LFCD which had a undersized carbide ring and did swage down the load so I removed the carbide ring in that particular die.

If using the LFCD bothers you and you then seat all your rounds first, then completely remove the seater plug from the seating die and put a proper crimp on you loads. There is no reason to leave a bell on the loads, especially one you can see with the naked eye. The crimp is not going to squeeze down the bullet.

[Mattog22]

OK, I will try some of your guys ideas. I was not thinning it to save money, I was thinning it because I read you will get a better and more even coat that dries and works better. I will try the Johnson's Paste Wax with it and give that a shot. It's not that I don't want to use the FCD, I have it brand new in the box with the intent of using it until I thought I may add more problems with it. Sounds like maybe I just need more and better lube.
Thanks guys, I'll give it a shot

[462]

Mattog22,
Make only one change at a time, test, and check results. Doing otherwise will never reveal the culprit. If you take it one step at a time, you will be better educated when it comes to future problems.

[Gohon]

Matt, 462 is right about only making one change at a time. Otherwise as I'm sure you already know, you'll be scratching your head trying to figure things out. Not sure which Tumble Lube bullet your loading but I load the Lee TL452-230 Truncated Cone 230 grain ahead of 4.8 grains of Bullseye and have very good luck with it.

As to mixing the JPW and LLA........what I do is take a half bottle of LLA and sit it in a cup of real hot water so as it thins, take how ever much JPW I need and put it in a shot glass and microwave it until it turns to liquid and then pour it into the bottle of LLA. Shake it up and you're all set. It stays mixed without separation and turns the LLA color to a light chocolate brown. Good luck................

[Mattog22]

Do you guys size your TL bullets? I'm using the Lee TL 230 gr RN molds. The more I read, I think it's a lube issue.

[Mattog22]

Ok, Im a newbie to this... I just realized that I forgot to clean copper fouling out of my barrel before shooting these. Didn't realize it could be a major factor with leading.

[Echo]

M22, I ignore any jacket fouling, and press on. I TL a popcorn boolit, and that is my only experience with Mule Snot. Very low velocity round, I'm not even guessing how low, but I have no leading issues with this low intensity load. The 45 is somewhat higher in intensity, but no one will ever call it a high-intensity round. LLA should work fine, so we return to boolit size.

Seat a boolit in your normal manner, then pull it and check the diameter.

And OK about not sizing, if they drop @ .453. If they get squoze down by the seating process, due to a too-large expander, or too thick case neck walls, then that must be addressed.

[geargnasher]

Um, Echo, I gotta disagree with a couple things you said the way I read them. First, copper fouling in a bore will grab lead like no tomorrow, and then lead loves to stick to itself, so you get a buildup very quickly. The other thing is a "too-large expander" won't cause undersized boolits, but an undersized one sure will!

I agree totally with your assessment of the lube and mic'ing a pulled boolits, though.


Mattdog, if you use enough crimp to just remove the bell mouth from the expander, there is no need whatsoever to seat and crimp in two separate steps, just set the die carefully to do both at once.

That half-moon shaving of lead is likely just a bit of the first driving band being shaved off by the CRIMP TAPER of the die, try removing the seater plug from your crimp die and see if one of your boolits will pass through it without getting scraped by the crimp restriction of the die. Often these ar set up to pass a .451" bullet, but if you shove a .453+" cast boolit through there it will scrape a bit of lead off. You can cure this by using a Lee push-though sizer, most likely in .452" for your gun.

Gear

[bruce381]

kinda on subject I just shot 300 rounds today 45ACP/200 gr SWC Saeco #68 /WW air cooled/5.5 gr 231/OAL 1.270/.452 size with Lars BAC, NO lead at all for what its worth.
bruce

[Mattog22]

So I guess if I pull a bullet and it is still at least .452 then my problem should be my barrel fouling or lack of lube. I just bought some Johnson's Paste Wax to mix with the Alox last night. It didn't seem like I had much lube on the last batch. I have the Lee push through sizer in .452 already but haven't used it yet since I kept reading that if it chambers then you are good to go. Even if that little bit is being shaved off it won't hurt anything as long as it's not sizing the bullet down too small right?

[Cord]

Regarding the sliver of lead, there is something that hasn’t been
mentioned yet; are the cases properly chamfered at the case mouth?

If not, that will shave lead and leave a moon sliver as the boolit aligns with
and enters the case. It may also be worse than you think ; these slivers
can remain inside the die and build up on the seater plug enough to
shorten the OAL (length of the finished round). Check inside the die
and see if there are more slivers in there on the plug.

If its a full ring of lead, it's probably what MtGun 44 said.

I would suggest seating to length and crimping in two separate
operations, that will tell you where the shaving is occurring.
The leading is probably something other than the shaving issue.

I seat to length in a backed-off seat die and then finish with a RCBS
taper crimp die, testing with a spare barrel until the round just
chambers well, and I can feel the bell go away as I adjust the taper.

Go slow since you're just starting out.
.

[Mattog22]

OK, I pulled a boolit and measured it, it ranged from .449-.451 depending on how I got the flat edge of the calipers on the round shape of the boolit. Either way, too small! Definitely must be the source of my leading problem. So, seating the bullet must be sizing it down. I still had a visible bell from the expander since I really had almost no crimp so I don't think the case mouth is shaving it. So do I need a different expander plug or is there something I'm not doing correctly? Is this a common problem? I don't hear of many people having to buy new expander plugs.

[RobS]

Yes this is an issue that many have. There are a few different ways to go around this.

1. Size the bullets larger so when the bullet is seated/crimped it swages down to your intended diameter. This could cause to an issue if the bullet you are using has a front drive band (band exposed outside the case) as it may be too large of a diameter to actually chamber.

2. Find an expander plug that is .001 under your intended bullet diameter and one that will go far enough into the case to match the length of the bullet's surface that is going to be seated inside the case.

3. Work with a harder bullet, one that will be hard enough to withstand the stresses the brass puts on the bullet.

Air cooled WW's work, and here is a biggy and one that many don't even consider; Air cooled WW's are soft after casting them and to the point that they will swage down, but if you wait a week or two they will age harden enough to withstand the possible case/seating/crimping swaging down the bullet. A bullet that is cast and shortly after lubed and seated will many times not be hard enough.

I've been around this with revolvers, automatics etc that shoot plain base bullets.

There is the other side that obturation may take into effect and bump the bullet to the bore's diameter, but I've had very marginal success with this as everything as to be just right for this to work effectively.

Bullet fit is King!!!

[geargnasher]

Matt, sounds like you're boolits may be a bit too soft or you need a bigger expander ball. I've never had trouble with my air-cooled WW boolits getting swaged down by the brass more than a half-thousandth or so.

I continue to disagree with the advice given to seat and crimp in two steps. You've already said that you aren't crimping enough to fully remove the bell, so there is no way the case mouth is shaving lead or the mouth is digging into the boolit when crimping! I've never chamfered OR trimmed a .45 ACP case in my life, and don't intend to. Total waste of time.

I STILL maintain that your little shavings are coming from the first band of the unsized boolits being pushed through the crimping portion of the die. Right now, since you have a .452" die, just size them and see what happens with that shaving.

IIRC RCBS makes different sized expander balls, maybe you need one that's about .450" or .451", or harder boolits. You need good boolit tension since this is all that keeps them in the brass, but not too much or you'll get undersized leading nightmares!

Oh, and to answer another question, just like MTGun said, that little lead shaving is not causing the leading in your bore.

On the topic of expanders, as far as I can tell, the few reloaders that are particular enough to need to change die dimensions do it as a matter of course, that's why it's not talked about much. I've been thinking about posing the question here to see how many have to make modifications and why.

Gear

[MtGun44]

captaint,

I'm glad you are enjoying your Dan Wesson Pointman. These are one of the finest
1911s out there today, and while not cheap they are far less than the other guns which
are built to the same tolerances and workmanship. You will enjoy that one for a lifetime
I would bet.

Bill

[Recluse]

I have the Lee TL230RN boolit in a two-banger and have never experienced in leading with it from any of the .45's except for my one old Gov't issue gun--it leads up whenever it gets around ANY lead. A box of No. 2 pencils can cause it to lead up. Probably why the military gave me the gun when I discharged many years ago--it was their last laugh at me.

My success with that boolit has been to LUBE -- SIZE -- LUBE.

It and the .200 SWC with a bevel base (my number two all-time best shooting boolit, believe it or not) are two boolits in which I finish the loading process off by running through the LFCD.

The result is I get perfect chambering, consistent, outstanding accuracy, and no leading.

I tumble-lube the TL230RN with a 45/45/10 blend and have pushed the boolit into some max velocities with no leading. Often times that depends on the barrel of the particular gun, however.

Lee Liquid Alox by itself is not bad when applied and used correctly. However, I found blending it with JPW or carnauba and or thinners (mineral spirits) or stiffners (beeswax) depending on which climate region of the country you live in increases the utility and effectiveness of it exponentially.

Remember: there are tens of thousands of boolit casters around the world that use LLA exclusively. One of our most respected members here, Ranch Dog, used it exclusively with his custom lever-rifle boolit molds, and did so with incredible results.

:coffee:

[fredj338]

I don't shoot TL bullets or use Alox tumble lube. I just hear far too many leading issue sto even attempt it. Leading all along the bbl sounds like bullet fit issue &/or lube running out. The TL design has always been suspect to me, lots of lead toughing the bore w/very little lube. Thinningit seems counter productive, but as I said, I don't shoot TL or TL bullets. I prefer the lubed & sized, large single grooves.

[Mattog22]

Well, I think my main problem is that I only waited a day and a half from casting and lubing to loading them up. This probably explains why my lead is so soft. If I was to use the .451 expander ball could I be looking at problems with bullet/case tension? I would like to get one if it allows me to seat freshly cast bullets or aged bullets without worrying about it. I can try sizing them as well but I didn't want to go any smaller than I have to.
Thanks again guys for your help. I'm determined to get this thing worked out.
Matt

[RobS]

You could have issues with case tension however since you are shooting in a closed chamber, i.e. not a revolver, and using faster powders then there is less of an issue with needing case tension. You only need enough tension to not set the bullet back when chambering and bullet set back EDIT: as geargnasher stated in Post #27and enough crimp to take the flare out (usually .470-.472 at the edge of the case mouth). If you need your bullets to age quicker you can put them in an over at 190ish degrees for an hour and it will speed up the aging process to 24-48 hours.

If you want to shoot that day then here is another option. Water quench the bullet from the mold, size them after an hour and load them another 3ish hours after that. With straight WW water quenched the bullet hardness should be in the 12-13 range by 3 or 4 hours. I don't advise this, but it will do in pinch I guess.

The best bet is just to plan ahead; however, I do understand it isn't always possible with time and a busy life etc. On that note give yourself a week or better before loading those air cooled WW bullets and you shouldn't need an expander for most practical purposes as the one you have for flaring the case should be fine.

[Mattog22]

I know water quenching makes it harder, but if I load these but don't shoot them that day they will harden to around 22. Why do you recommend against water quenching?

[RobS]

Yes they will harden in the next week or so to 22 BHN or possibly harder/softer depending on what your casting temp is and how hot the bullets comes out of the mold when they hit the water.

I've had better accuracy with all but one bullet design using air cooled WW bullets in the 45 ACP. I'm not against one way or the other (air cooled or water quenched) and with that a water quenched bullet after 24 hours time will definitely be hard enough to withstand the possibilities of the case swaging down the bullet. More than likely an air cooled WW bullet at 2 weeks or maybe even a week’s time would also combat the case swage down issues.

Regarding water quenched: I say try it and see what happens as your gun may just love a water quenched bullet and be the most accurate means for it or this process may not work very well at all, but at least you have done yourself a favor in checking it out.

The biggest problems with all this is people are NOT accurate with their descriptions when they say "this works" or "this doesn't work" etc. Some say they have no issues with a Lee FCD, but no one says what they are sizing bullets to and what their groove diameter is in the firearms they are using. People also say they use air cooled WW's and may fully understand the process of age hardening and wait for the bullets to harden enough before loading them where as others don't understand the process and load up an air cooled bullet hours or a day after casting to find that they have leading and therefore believe that air cooled WW bullets just don't work.

If people would do two things at a minimum regarding bullet fit before running to conclusions it would help greatly:

1. Slug their firearms barrel to find the groove diameter

2. Make sure after the loaded round is fully assembled (seated/crimped) that they check a pulled bullet's diameter to make sure it is as intended.

You already managed with slugging your barrel and through it all you ended up measuring a pulled bullet. You now have a better understanding to your leading issues and are 90% to finding what works for you in that being "bullet fit".

It sounds like you are on your way. :p

[geargnasher]

RobS, there is a MAJOR danger factor to now having enough case tension on the boolit with an automatic, especially the 1911 platform: If you don't have enough, or the case is over-expanded, or the boolit is way too soft, the boolits in the magazine will work their way back into the case under recoil, and the last round or two in the mag can easily be seated so deep to cause a Kaboom with faster pistol powders.

This is not conjecture, this is FACT, I know personally several folks that have blown up pistols due to this and several people here who have, upon examining the remains of the gun it was found that the last round or two in the magazine was seated plumb up against the powder from recoil.

Now, that being said, there is relatively little danger in going overize with the expander as longt as the boolits are at least 12-13 bhn or so, like most air-cooled AGED clip-on wheel weight metal. IME ACWW = 8-9 bhn right after reaching room temp, then about 1/2 point a day for a week, and a marginal amount after that for the next couple of weeks.

Like has been said, PLAN AHEAD. I wouldn't get into the water-dropping thing for the short term, bacause if you don't shoot them in a narrow time window, you could be dealing with unexpected pressure problems from an aged, water-dropped boolit of 23 bhn being shot with a gun and load worked up for much softer boolits.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Ok Rob, fair enough, you posted while I was typing!


Gear

[RobS]

RobS, there is a MAJOR danger factor to now having enough case tension on the boolit with an automatic, especially the 1911 platform: If you don't have enough, or the case is over-expanded, or the boolit is way too soft, the boolits in the magazine will work their way back into the case under recoil, and the last round or two in the mag can easily be seated so deep to cause a Kaboom with faster pistol powders.

This is not conjecture, this is FACT, I know personally several folks that have blown up pistols due to this and several people here who have, upon examining the remains of the gun it was found that the last round or two in the magazine was seated plumb up against the powder from recoil.


Yep you are right........and I was stating with a .001 under bullet diameter or .451 expander in this situation that it would have enough neck tension for all purposes.............

Good to bring up this point as I was unclear with intent and we don't need people reading this and blowing things sky high.

[Mattog22]

So I am a little confused, a sizer at .451 will or won't work in most situations. Also, if a bullet gets harder wouldn't it start becoming more similar to the hardness of a jacketed bullet thus requiring a higher powder charge for the same weight?

EDIT: Ok, I see, .451 would be OK if I shot WC right away but may become iffy after about a week or so? Think Ill just air cool longer or try the oven method stated if that one is safe.

[geargnasher]

....And thanks to you for bringing up the antimonial alloy aging thing, an oft overlooked problem with newer casters. You are indeed right that those of us familiar with the properies of alloys automatically assume that a little aging is necessary and forget to bring it up to those that don't know. Also, I wasn't disagreeing .451" was correct, I recommended something like that myself in post #19, I was just pointing out that the problem with recoil overseating too-soft boolits is exacerbated when the case "neck" is already expanded more than normal, whereas one might get away with it with a regular j-word -sized expander. Sometimes it's not just one misunderstood thing that leads to reloading accidents, but a series of things working together in just the wrong combination.

Gear

[geargnasher]

So I am a little confused, a sizer at .451 will or won't work in most situations. Also, if a bullet gets harder wouldn't it start becoming more similar to the hardness of a jacketed bullet thus requiring a higher powder charge for the same weight?

EDIT: Ok, I see, .451 would be OK if I shot WC right away but may become iffy after about a week or so? Think Ill just air cool longer or try the oven method stated if that one is safe.

No, Matt, what we're saying is if you have a .451" groove diameter, and you likely do (but still need to slug the bore to be sure), your gun will likely prefer .452" boolits no matter what the hardness.

To ensure your boolits of any hardness stay .452" after seating, the case "necks" need to be about .450"-.451" which will be achieved with a .451" expander ball. Depending on brand, thickness of case wall, and state of anneal, the cases spring back to give you more or less one to two thousandths tension on the boolit.

there is no need to heat treat or water-drop .45 ACP boolits in my opinion, although many folks do. Keep it simple for now, just air cool them and wait at least a week before shooting.

Gear

[RobS]

Expander should measure .450" to maximum of .4505" Regarding the sliver of lead, bullet larger than .452" will shave lead on seating. Sometimes seating dies need to be reamed out. Alox lube > http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/faq/index.cgi

For the standard die set yes .450 expander is standard for a jacketed bullet. Dies are manufactured for the general population of reloaders. Sorry but the fact is we here at Cast Boolits (cast bullet shooters) are not the majority so the die manufacturers are catering to those that load jacketed bullets which in this case are at .451.

However RCBS does make Cowboy dies for cast boolit shooting and look at their dimensions.............they are not the same as a normal set of dies.

[dudel]

Similar conditions, with no leading. Lee 6 cavity 230gr TC TL. LLA 50/50 with mineral spirits. I water drop the WW boolits. No additional sizing or lubing. FWIW, I also use the FCD. I do seat and crimp in two steps. I got some leading with Bullseye; but none with Unique.

As someone else suggested, change one thing at a time, and take good notes. Load up batches of 10 to test.

[RobS]

Similar conditions, with no leading. Lee 6 cavity 230gr TC TL. LLA 50/50 with mineral spirits. I water drop the WW boolits. No additional sizing or lubing. FWIW, I also use the FCD. I do seat and crimp in two steps. I got some leading with Bullseye; but none with Unique.

As someone else suggested, change one thing at a time, and take good notes. Load up batches of 10 to test.

How can we see if your experiences are similar????...........we don't know your barrel's groove diameter what your bullet diameter is after you seat and crimp etc. We don't even know your bullet diameter to start with?????????????

And on and on

[Mattog22]

It sounds like my best bet is to wait a week or two and try seating them and pull some and measure again. I will contact RCBS tomorrow, have them send me the expander ball at .451 to have on hand in case I still have the problem once the WWs harden up. I'll be having my daughter born in a few days so I'm sure I'll have at least a week if not more to let them get hard. lol

[RobS]

Mattog22:

Congrats on the soon to be new addition. You'll have a lot of nights were you wished you were doing this [smilie=6: but instead you'll feel like this :veryconfu and think you need a cup of joe in the morning just to move. It's all worth it in my opinion though.

Air cooled WW bullets will harden up to their fullest potential in a week or 2 as been discussed. You can actually speed up the aging processes of the antimony crystals and get your air cooled WW's up to speed in as little as 24-48 hours as I mentioned earlier.

I am not saying you are hardening them by quenching, I am saying you are speeding up the reaction where you can have a bullet at the same air cooled hardness sooner; no quenching in water, no making them harder than what they were going to be as air cooled. If you have interests in this give me a PM.

[geargnasher]

For the standard die set yes .450 expander is standard for a jacketed bullet. Dies are manufactured for the general population of reloaders. Sorry but the fact is we here at Cast Boolits (cast bullet shooters) are not the majority so the die manufacturers are catering to those that load jacketed bullets which in this case are at .451.

However RCBS does make Cowboy dies for cast boolit shooting and look at their dimensions.............they are not the same as a normal set of dies.

Absolutely right.

Also, 243Win, IME you're better referencing Recluse's sticky thread in the lube forum, his method beats the pants off of Lee's own method in application AND in the shooting.

Gear

[geargnasher]

MATT, QUIT FOOLIN' AROUND WITH BOOLITS AND GO TAKE CARE OF YOUR BRIDE!:grin:

Gear

[Mattog22]

MATT, QUIT FOOLIN' AROUND WITH BOOLITS AND GO TAKE CARE OF YOUR BRIDE!:grin:

Gear


I know, I get started on something like this and it's like a puzzle I have to figure out! She just rolls her eyes at me about any of the casting, reloading, or run and gun stuff. She's a saint to put up with it.

[geargnasher]

You's a lucky man. Mine tolerates me staying up half the night obsessing over the minutia of our hobby, but I tell her it keeps me out of bars! I doubt she'll be very understanding, though, when it gets to be baby time.

BTW, I have to watch it, Mrs. Geargnasher is a member here, too!

Take care,

Gear

[Mattog22]

You's a lucky man. Mine tolerates me staying up half the night obsessing over the minutia of our hobby, but I tell her it keeps me out of bars! I doubt she'll be very understanding, though, when it gets to be baby time.

BTW, I have to watch it, Mrs. Geargnasher is a member here, too!

Take care,

Gear

You use that staying out of bars reasoning too? I stopped drinking about 5 years ago since I shoot matches and drive around with guns so much, drinking would get a bit risky (I know, stupid!):shock:. I just tell her that I'm spending the money on guns, reloading stuff, and now casting stuff instead of liquor. That only works for so long before the reminds me that I'm not saving any money with these hobbies instead of drinking:razz:

[Mattog22]

Update: Finally home from the hospital, healthy baby girl! So I had a little down time today to do some more trouble shooting. I tried seating the bullets again since waiting a little over a week. They got sized down again! So last week I had called RCBS and got the .451 expander you guys recommended. I tried that and perfect! I was able to seat the bullet to 1.255, crimp to .473, it fit in the chamber of my 1911. I pulled the bullet and it still measured .452-.453! Now I will clean my barrel really good, get the lead out and any copper fouling that may have been there before I tried lead. Hopefully get to the range soon and try them out. Maybe I'll finally get this thing figured out.

[RobS]

Congrats on the new baby girl!!!!

Glad to hear you have the issues with case swage figured out. I've found that it takes about 2 weeks, possibly 3 to reach the full aging potential of air cooled WW bullets. Make sure there is enough case tension/crimp that the bullet doesn't set back as Gear and I have mentioned. A simple test is to seat/crimp a bullet and then on a table put the nose of it down and with your body weight push downward on the round to see if it will set back the bullet. Also when you get to the range shoot a few rounds and see what the rest look like and if ok then shoot all except the last one or two and then check again.

[Mattog22]

Ok, I'll check it when I get a chance and at the range. When I pulled the bullet to measure the diameter it took a few decent whacks. I will definitely check while shooting for setback though. Thanks again and Ill give another update after I shoot them.

Matt

[casterofboolits]

In my experience, leading is a result of undersize boolits skidding down the bore.

The little lead rings are usually from not enough flare on the case mouth or using a roll crimp die instead of a taper crimp and seating and crimping in the same operation.

Checking my loading logs for 23 years of IPSC compitition, I loaded an average of ten thousand 45 ACP per year. In addition, to pay for my IPSC addiction, I began casting and selling boolits to other shooters and sold more than two million boolits. I had two complaints about my boolits in that time. One guy complained that he never got a thousand boolits in a box from me...a thousand eighteen, sixteen, fifteen, but never an even thousand.:bigsmyl2:

Another complained that my 09-125-SWCBB leaded at 1,500 fps! He was trying to make IPSC major with a nine.

Aways seat and taper crimp in seperate operations. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!! :Fire: [smilie=w:

[Mattog22]

I still get a little ring of lead every once in a while but I think it's from some of the bullets that may be slightly large such as one that measures .4535 and when pulled measures at .4525 or .453. I can't expand and bell the case any more since the bullet has the whole base edge inside the case right before seating. It may be due to crimping in the same operation as Im still seeing what works best for me. Oven if a little is shaved off towards the crimped area the base is still measuring fine. I may move to separate seating and crimping since I have one more station open and it would be a little easier making seating and crimpng adjustments. FWIW, I tried the LFCD and it sized the pulled bullet to .450, not good. So I guess that will just be used for jacketed bullets to make sure of chambering before the big 3-gun matches. Maybe Ill get confident enough to use my cast boolits in the big matches once I get it all figured out. (the reason for not sizing is because they fit in the chamber already and also my new Lee sizing die sizes them down to .451 instead of the .452 I wanted)

[RobS]

On the Lee sizing die if you want...............hone that baby out to whatever diameter you need. A split dowel or even a wooden dowel and an inch wide 320 grit wet/dry sand paper wrapped around it until it's a tight fit and turn it inside the die. I would get it close to what you want with the 320 grit and finish up with 600 grit paper. It doesn't take much so work a little and then check it by sizing a bullet.............repeat until you have what you want for diameter.

[9.3X62AL]

Late to the party again.......my RCBS 45 ACP die set's expander spud mics @ .447", which might be all right for jacketed bullets.......but is too tight for WW-alloy boolits sized @ .452". I am a great believer in either Lyman M-dies or their very similar Multi-Charge Die expander spuds. The small "step" above the actual spud diameter is often enough to start a plain-based lead boolit without a "flare" per se. My MCD 45 ACP spud is about .4505" and has .455" step. No slivers here.

[Mattog22]

Yeah, My RCBS measured .448, called them and told them I wanted the .451 expander. They sent it to mr free and it measures .4505 before the step

[Mattog22]

RobS, your opening up of the sizing die sounds good but what are the chances that I willl open the hole up unevenly?

[geargnasher]

RobS, your opening up of the sizing die sounds good but what are the chances that I willl open the hole up unevenly?

First, Congrats on the new addition to your family! [smilie=p:

You're only taking off a thousandth or so, not much chance of making it out of round if you use a dowel and drill like RobS suggested. It doesn't even matter if it's a little hourglassed, the push-throughs are tapered inside anyway.

You might be surprised how much sanding it takes to remove .0005" on radius, that steel is pretty hard. I would suggest using a piece of masking tape on the end of the sandpaper strip to attach to the dowel before you wrap it on the dowel, and use a little honing or gun oil to keep the paper from clogging up.

I think by now you have a pretty good handle on what goes on with sizing, seating, crimping, alloy hardness, and die dimensions now, pulling and measuring boolits can really teach us a lot. I still maintain no need to seat/crimp this cartridge in two steps, but if you have and extra die station open either bump the seat/crimp forward and add a powder checker/lockout die or add a crimp body to the last station. If you have the Lee FCD you might use it if you knock out the carbide post-sizer ring.

RobS also gives an excellent "quick and dirty" way to check for boolit setback, follow his advice with the first clip you shoot, removing all remaining rounds each shot (keep them in order) to check for "turtling" boolits. IME the last two in the mag get it the worst.

Gear

[Mattog22]

You are correct, I have learned an enormous amount of information by getting these to work right and all the bullets I have pulled and measured after each little thing I changed. I appreciate the input from everyone here. I am sure it's here on the forum somewhere but is it relatively easy to remove the sizing ring from the LFCD? I'd rather do that than buy another die if I decide to go that route.

[RobS]

One way, which I tried first, is to knock it out. I didn't quite have all my ducks in a row when I tried this one. If you work this approach then first you'll need to heat the end of the die where the carbide ring is so as to loosen up the Locktite bond (or whatever it is they are using) and then I've read here that a forum member put in a brass case from the top of the die and used a punch and hammer to pop the ring out. The point with the brass case was to make contact with the entire ring. This along with heating the die up is where I went wrong. I ended up chipping the carbide ring in multiple places and to the point where I couldn't get a good place to make contact any longer so I ended up cutting it off with a thin cutting wheel that I attached to my hand grinder. If cutting the ring out one as to take caution to not cut too much of the die as there is an inside diameter change (smaller) towards the mouth of the die that keeps the crimp sleeve from falling out of the bottom of the die.

Pic of the entire die
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/entiredie.jpg

Picture of the bevel or lip of the die (inside diameter change)
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/diesbeveltokeepsleevefromfallingout.jpg

Picture of die with crimp sleeve at the top of the die
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/mouthofdiecrimpsleeveback.jpg

Pic of the die with crimp sleeve at the mouth
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/mouthofdiecrimpsleeveatmouth.jpg

If you decide to go this route: I would first try to knock out the carbide ring as it should be the easier of the two methods.

[Mattog22]

RobS, Thanks for the tutorial. I may try this tonight if my wife let's me.

[Mattog22]

Finally got out to the range today. Using the .4505 expander did the trick. I seated a boolit after using the original .448 expander and also the .4505 expander. I could not get either to set back unless I put all my might and weight behind it on my bench. Checked them while shooting them today and there was no setback. Shot about 200 with almost no leading whatsoever, I mean it doesn't seem really any dirtier than when I shoot j bullets. This is great! I don't want to have to clean a leaded barrel like my last outing again! I had a few failure to feeds where the case mouth got caught on the edge of the chamber. I am crimping to .473 but Zi think there may have been a few about .474 or so due to using mixed brass. So if I crimp to .471 (like a fellow caster I have been talking to locally) I think my problem will be solved. Thanks everyone for the info.

[geargnasher]

Glad you got it working!

Gear

[RobS]

Now you have arrived.............and from here you have hit the ground and are off and running. I would crimp a bit more as to take care of the chambering and .471 should work for what your gun is telling you.

[Mattog22]

Yes, I'm excited now. Think I'll make some more boolits today since I shot all I made yesterday. I will remelt the older undersized ones. Now the only thing that will hold me back is keeping up a good lead supply. It's tough around here, I've scored a bucket or two by offering to buy beer or whatever. I've even dropped off some beer for a small amount of wheel weights just so they remember me but it doesn't seem to matter. Oh well, I'll just keep trying. I think I will be gtg with the .471 crimp! Now I can't wait to get out again to shoot.

[dudel]

I shoot a similar setup (45 ACp w/230gr Lee TL with LLA 50/50). I prefer to seat and crimp in two steps. That gives me two benefits (as I see it)

1) I'm not pushing the boolit deeper as the case is getting crimped around it
2) I can change seating depth more easily as I don't affect the crimp when I change seating depth. I can use different seating dies for different profile, and the crimp remains the same.

I seat with the seating die that came with the set; but I crimp with the Lee FCCD. It's worked for me and what I load. Minimal leading, although I tend to stick with Unique and Bullseye for 45ACP. For me, accuracy has been fine with the FCCD.

[Mattog22]

I pulled a boolit after using the LFCD and it actually sized my boolit down to .450 which actually causes leading in my gun

[shagg]

I'm completely new to this too and fired my first rounds this morn. I tl with liquid alox straight, not thinned. I cleaned and weighed my barrel before and after to check for leading. I didn't have any visual or weight indication of leading. I am also loading 45 acp lee 230gr roundnose but using 3.7 bullseye. Maybe not thinning the lube would help?

[Mattog22]

I actually used 50/50 alox and JPW and it seemed to work. I don't think the lube was as much of my problem as my boolits getting undersized when seating.