Gould Help Needed

[Themoose]

I've been trying to get a good hunting load for my Ruger #3 in 45-70. I've been working with the Lyman 457122 Gould bullet... I've tried straight BP, duplex, smokeless, and substitute black powder propellants and I haven't been able to get something that I feel is a good working load... having said this I also need to quantify what I'm trying to do... based upon input from others on this site and elsewhere, I'm trying to work up a load that is relatively low velocity to allow the Gould to work as designed( I intend to use it for whitetails)... say in the neighborhood of 12-1300 fps also, my preference is to not use BP if possible... I have been using pure lead, and 30-1 and even tried some cast out of wheelweights... I know the rifle has accuracy potential as I have shot very tight groups using hot loads of 300 gr JHP that will stay under 1.5" @ 100 yds... but it kills at both ends and I really want to get completely away from jacketed ammo...

My more slugs to .458+ and bullets running .457+... so that may be part of the problem.. I was assuming that soft lead would "bump up" to fill the bore... now I'm thinking of Beagling the mould to drop bullets running around .460 and lap out sizer die .459... or... if I'm using pure lead do I need to size at all if I can get them to drop in the .460 range?

I've been cautioned by some about using any alloy that has a hint of antimony for fear of the bullet shearing or shattering with such a deep hollowpoint... Does anyone have any experience here velocities in the target range of 12-1300 fps?

I've also thought of shortening the hollow-point pin, thus reducing the depth of the cavity but don't want to do something that is not easily undone(I am no machinist, nor have necessary skills to make a new pin.


Thanks in advance for your experience,

TheMoose

[Piedmont]

I think you are on the right track. No, you don't have to size them if they drop at .460 but of course they will need lube.

You may be overworried on the "hint of antimony" bit. You would probably be fine at 50/50 wheel weight/pure lead. But the most ductile will be lead/tin alloys, so if it must all stay in one piece, use those.

[Bosshaug]

Have you tried Trail Boss powder? It was made for use with lead bullets. I have read about other people having good results with it in the 45-70 cartridge. I know it works well for me in 30-06. I use 15.0 grains Trail Boss behind a 160gr gas-checked lead round nose boolit. (This is an IMR powder). Hope this helps ya.

[Larry Gibson]

I would suggest a 1-20 tin - lead alloy. Also use a dipper to cast with to get the molten alloy into the mould as quick as possible. If you are using a bottom pour you will want to open the adjustment up on the spout to get a quicker flow. Casting at a higher temp will also improve fillout on larger moulds. I've delt with several Lyman Gould moulds and they all dropped bullets at .459+ with that alloy and pouring technique. That was entirely sufficient to get excellent accuracy in the .459 barrels of my H&R TDs and my 45-70 Siamese Mauser. I pushed that bullet/alloy combination to 1350 fps using 4759 and a dacron filler. Expansion was much more than I wanted on deer but it was a very deadly bullet to say the least.

Larry Gibson

[Themoose]

Thanks for feedback. I have tried some Trail Boss loads as well and I do use ladle to pour with.. fillout on bullets is fine... they look excellent, just are too small (my opinion).

Thanks again... would appreciate others experience also.

TheMoose

[excess650]

I cast mine at 25-1 for the same purpose as yours.

Make sure you have all of the copper out of the barrel, and if using BP, use a BP compatible lube and remove all oil from the barrel before shooting.

My last experiments were with BP, and the goal was 3 shots without wiping. Iron sights at 58 yards produced groups from one ragged hole to 3", but the best groups were with fffg Swiss and fffg Goex. The larger groups were with ffg. I loaded with the GGs covered, no crimp and only a little compression on the Swiss, but more like 1/8" on the Goex after pouring through a 24" droptube. I use a card between the bullet and powder.

If I were to try smokeless, I would try Unique and AA5744. Unique may give better results at the low velocity that you're looking for as the 5744 loads will leave unburned powder at low pressure.

[Bret4207]

You have some serious fit issues. A .457 boolit in a .458 bore is just gonna give you problems, even with black. It's going to take a pretty good charge to "bump" the .002+ you need.

[Nobade]

I ran into the same problem with #457191 in my C. Sharps rifle. It never shot for beans until I sized them to .452 and paper patched them back up to .460. Then, loaded over pretty much any smokeless powder I felt like at whatever speed I wanted, they could easily hold 3 inches at 200M. Probably would do better but I can't see better than that. I haven't tried the patched bullets over black powder, not sure if such a light bullet would work well there but they sure do work well with smokeless. Your gould bullet should respond similarly. If you don't want to paper patch, you will also likely find happiness using Cream 'O' Wheat as a filler. Last weekend a buddy of mine used those same bullets (which cast out at about .456) with 40gr. H322 and enough COW to get 1/8" compression in his Marlin 1895CB in our cowboy silhouette match. 40 rounds fired plus practice, nice clean bore afterward, no fliers, every shot went where it was pointed. Drop the charge to maybe 35gr, of whatever powder you might have in the same general burn rate, and you should have success there too. If you do use fillered loads, start light and work up carefully. Don't use fast burning powder. Nothing faster than IMR4198 in the 45-70 and you'll be safe.

[threett1]

Straight WWs have worked good for me for several years now. I pan lube, no sizing and put them over 45gr AA2230 for about 1600fps out of my Handi and Guide Gun. Mine drop about .459. Get the size up a bit and you should be good to go.