Lyman 311291 Problem

[cwbuff]

I'm new to casting my own bullets, so bear with me. I cast some Lyman 311291 boolits 170g with gas checks. They will not chamber in my M1917 or in my M1903 National Match rifles. So I kept seating the boolit deeper. I've heard to "never seat below the bottom of the neck". Putting the gas check at the bottom of the neck yields an OAL of 3.032"

Do I seat the boolit deeper or am I doing something else wrong?

[John 242]

Are you sizing your boolits?
If so, then what dia are you sizing them to?
If not, then what dia are they as cast?
Have you slugged your barrel or chamber throat?

I'm a novice too, but I've found that too big a boolit will not chamber.

[243winxb]

Bullet diameter of .310" should work. The nose of the bullet measures .298" on mine, is your larger in diameter? Seat them deeper is what i did. :confused: When the primer fires, some powder is burnt, the rest goes against the base of the bullet, if the bullets base is below the neck, its covered by powder. (IMR 4895) http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/th_CastBullets_20090207_001.jpg (http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/CastBullets_20090207_001.jpg)

[GBertolet]

Is this a new mold? The dimensions could be off. If not, have you tried it in other rifles? I have this mold. Bullets drop out at .310 with a bore rider of .3015 in mine. Yours could be different. Measure your bullet dimensions and post what you find. If your bullet would be on the large side, if using military brass, will make it worse, as the necks are thicker. As previously mentioned, if the bullet shoulder is seated out too far, it will hit the rifling and the bolt won't close. OAL doesn't matter, it's where the bullet shoulder is. You got a bunch of things it could be. I had been using the 311284 in my Garand. I had to keep seating the bullet deeper and deeper until the shoulder was back far enough for the bolt would close. The base of the bullet is a little below the case neck.

[cwbuff]

They are sized at 0.311 (Lyman sizing die). Nose diameter is 0.298.

The bolt will not close on the only two rifles I tried it on. I have fired these in the past and I did not have a problem. So I did something different this time. If I seat the boolit deeper, I think the bolt will close. Is that safe to do?

[243winxb]

I have fired these in the past and I did not have a problem. These should chamber if the COL & diameters are the same as before. Will empty full length sized brass chamber? What is the neck diameter of a loaded round. Maximum allowed is .340"
If I seat the boolit deeper, I think the bolt will close. Is that safe to do? Should be ok, if you loading a maximum load of powder , you might want to go to the starting load again and work up.

[cwbuff]

The diameter at the neck is 0.336

[John 242]

They are sized at 0.311 (Lyman sizing die). Nose diameter is 0.298.

The bolt will not close on the only two rifles I tried it on. I have fired these in the past and I did not have a problem. So I did something different this time. If I seat the boolit deeper, I think the bolt will close. Is that safe to do?

Like I said before, I'm a novice, but if the boolits worked before at the same OAL and nothing else has changed...
Could it be your brass?
Just thinking out loud here, but if your brass is too long then you would have problems closing your bolt.
Anything in the chamber? Boolit lube or fowling?
Like I said, I'm a novice and I'm just throwing ideas out...
I hope you get it figured out. When you do, let us know what the problem was.

[damron g]

Do I seat the boolit deeper or am I doing something else wrong?

mark the bullet with a "Sharpie" or candle soot to see if it is touching when it chambers.i doubt it's your bullet diameter.seat the bullet until it chambers disregard the location of the GC in relation to the bottom of the neck.the only time is causes problems is when you have a bullet of say .310 and size in a .314 die and the GC is larger than the bullet.Then when the check goes below the sized area of the neck is expands it and you have a loose bullet situation for the bullets main body.

g

[Le Loup Solitaire]

Usually in 30-06 the case mouth and or crimp is behind the front band. The bullet is also usually sized .309 or .310. With this setup one does not get engraving on the nose. While on the subject of nose.... the measurement of .298 is too small. It should be .301-.3015 in order for the nose to be positively guided by the lands. If the nose is undersized and unsupported then the bullet will slump in the bore and go down the tube cockeyed...and when it exits in that position it will go downrange that way and the accuracy will suffer. Suggest lapping the nose section of the mold or "bumping up" the noses.....or getting the mold swapped out/returned for one that casts at the proper dimensions. The diameter of the bullet body at .311 may be too large especially if the thickness of the brass in the neck combines with that measurement...it will make the rounds hard/harder to chamber/close the bolt on. Bullet seating depth with the 291 is not a critical thing; a little bit of the gas check protruding below the case neck is ok if needed...more than that is not necessary or recommended. I believe that the problem you have is, as already indicated, the .311 is too large and the brass being too thick or long---size them to .310, and/or if too long....check into case length/trimming to correct length. Many folks shoot 291 in 17's and Springfields and usually don't have probs with chambering rounds. Its not a hard situation to get right. LLS

[damron g]

The bullet is also usually sized .309 or .310.

My Springfield's and Enfieds can take .315 with no problem.

g

[243winxb]

The diameter at the neck is 0.336 This is OK, your under the maximum. I can't think of anything else right now. If ammo chambered and fired before, they should now. Good luck.

[cwbuff]

I checked the Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th Edition. It lists the OAL at 3.013 for the 311291. So I will seat to this depth and see if that works.

[jimr]

I checked the Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th Edition. It lists the OAL at 3.013 for the 311291. So I will seat to this depth and see if that works.

that is a general seating depth an does not mean your rifle will accept it. load 1 round without powder an primer to see if it will work.

better yet take a fired case an size it to where it will hold the bullet. you may have to split the neck , seat the bullet long , chamber it , you'll be forcing the bullet in the case. carefully remove the round an check the o.a.l. repeat to make sure.


jim

[smoked turkey]

I'll throw in my two cents. I have read the posts and saw a mention of case length. I don't recall any reply on that. As a part of the case prep, I always measure case length after full length sizing. I sure don't enjoy case trimming, but I believe it is good to do, especially in this case where you are trying something new. By starting out with cases trimmed to trim to length you are assured that all your boolit crimps are uniform and you will be starting with cases that will chamber in your gun. Sounds to me like your cases could be overlength and getting into the throat of the rifling along with the boolit. This would account for the loads not chambering.

[fourarmed]

With a nose of .298 (you might check that again), I think you can eliminate that as the source of the problem. In fact, it may be too small to shoot well in those milsurps. That leaves driving band and neck diameter and case dimensions as the possible culprits. If the neck diameter of a loaded round is smaller than that of a fired case from the gun, then that is not the problem. The driving band portion of the bullet could interfere with the throat where it protrudes from the case. You should be able to see evidence of that just by looking at the extracted round. If it is none of those, that pretty much leaves case length, sizing dimensions, and crimp dimensions to investigate.

[cwbuff]

Problem solved. I resized a 311291 to .310. That allowed it to fit in my Hornady OAL gage. I determined that the OAL needed to be 3.005 on the M1903 NM. Bingo it worked. It also worked on the M1917. I forgot I had bought the Hornady OAL gage. It is a useful tool. I wish it was made a little better - like out of steel instead of aluminum body with a plastic insert. But it worked.

PS: the cases were all sized and trimmed.

[9.3X62AL]

Good deal!

More than a few of my rifle calibers have cast boolits seated with the gas check below the neck/shoulder junction. Most of these shoot VERY well.

[John 242]

I’m a little confused, so maybe somebody can break it down Barney style for me.
The original post stated that this boolit / cartridge combination was used in the same rifles before with no problems, but now the COL is too long.
Being the bright light that I am, I figure that if the COL was fine in the past, then it should be fine now. Did the COL change?
I’ve had bullet seating stems turn on me without realizing it.

Otherwise, what changed from the old loads to the new loads that necessitated the need to seat the boolit deeper?

Not being a wise guy, just trying to develop my trouble shooting skills.
Thanks.

[bpost1958]

I think you are shoving the shoulder back making bolt closure hard. Back the seating die out 1/2 turn to make sure you are not crushing the case.